2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumTell me why me and almost everyone else in my age group should trust Hillary.
Why should I believe that Hillary is the best candidate for progressive change, since you all want to gloat so badly. Why should I believe that she believes in leftist ideals as opposed to "saying whatever will get me through an election"
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)But there's very few--if any--politicians I do trust.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)NEVER again.
0rganism
(23,920 posts)but if you do so, you should probably say what you consider to be your age group.
enough
(13,254 posts)I'm 72, and I don't.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Even Bill, he prolly should sleep with an eye open.
21st Century Poet
(254 posts)History has shown that she shouldn't trust him more than he shouldn't trust her. Lest we forget, let's go over this one more time: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Ouch.
Never trust a man who cheats on his wife. He who thinks nothing of cheating the people closest to him (and to whom he has made a public oath to live with and protect) will think nothing of cheating everybody else. And don't for a moment think that extramarital sexual relations have anything to with love or being liberal and progressive. It's all about lust and power, and using that power to sexually prey on others.
But maybe Mr and Mrs Clinton are both untrustworthy and therefore fully deserve each other.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I think she hides behind him whilst making use of his corrupt buddies ability to fund raise for him and now for her.
choie
(4,107 posts)N/t
MuseRider
(34,095 posts)to trust someone who changes so often you don't know what they stand for.
Don't trust any of them but especially those who cannot stand for anything.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Because they so insist on shoving her down my throat as this amazingly well qualified super genius politician .
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's called democracy. Sometimes people vote for a candidate you dislike. The correct response is to pick yourself up and either find a candidate that more people like, or find a way to make your preferred candidate the preferred candidate of at least a plurality of the voters.
Cal33
(7,018 posts)DNC - deliberately kept Sanders out of the news since he announced his candidacy for president
in May, 2015. They are still carrying on these and other dirty tricks.
Are you proud of yourselves when you can win only through these low and despicable methods?
Do you really feel that you've won at all? Do you really feel "It's called democracy?" Perhaps
you are going to deny that any of the above had ever happened at all?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)If the Democrats select Hillary as the nominee, it's a strong and clear message to liberals and progressives that the Party doesn't value our input or our issues. It's not "shoving her down our throat", it's shoving us out of your Party.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Political Science 101
Armstead
(47,803 posts)SamKnause
(13,087 posts)yourout
(7,524 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 15, 2016, 11:27 PM - Edit history (1)
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)I've been asking repeatedly. They have no reasons. They're too busy celebrating any indication she *will* win to bother with pesky details like why she *should* won.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)But what I can tell you is to never give up hope that we can fight for better. Think of Bernie Sander's career and how he slowly, steadily gained influence.
That much is still possible.
LuvLoogie
(6,908 posts)Oh the irony...
BumRushDaShow
(128,372 posts)Push for good Democrats in Congress and in your state & local offices to help create change. This obsession over the top of the ticket shows the tunnel-vision of too many folks.
laureloak
(2,055 posts)Thanks for making that point.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)Response to Lil Missy (Reply #15)
Post removed
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I hope your PPR comes quickly.
SheenaR
(2,052 posts)And I don't trust her. And I don't think she gives a shit about people like myself. Whether I like it or not does matter, especially in November.
Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)From a FEW political parties to choose from.
So, given that, how about we get back to the original question, shall we?
coyote
(1,561 posts)Whether you like it or not. Fixed it for you.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)how to judge fact from fiction or to look in-depth at the issues and actual positions of the candidate instead of the cherry-picked sound bites thrown up on these boards. Maybe you should verify and then trust which ever candidate you choose?
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)i've been engaged in politics more than half my life but keep condescending
Armstead
(47,803 posts)I trust Obama even when I don't agree with him.
Clinton, not so much.
kgnu_fan
(3,021 posts)mooseprime
(474 posts)They keep telling you there's no evidence of a pay to play relationship between Clinton and her donors, but it's a matter of public record that as SoS she OK'd massive arms sales to the Middle East that would not have been otherwise permitted, and the recipients all gave huge donations to her foundation. It's emblematic of how she operates. And that's before you consider the notion of providing nearly $30 billion worth of arms to the medieval kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where beheadings are completely routine and women are treated like livestock.
lapfog_1
(29,189 posts)The livestock is treated better than the women.
The livestock would be rescued from a burning building... but the women would be punished for running out of it without the proper covering and male relatives.
PWPippin
(213 posts)not what positions she's held. Needless to say, I don't trust her.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)she's awful for your generation. A corporatist, pro war, pretends to care about minorities and then says slimy things about them, takes all this money from Wall Street and big banks, has made NO big commitment on climate change - no.
calguy
(5,290 posts)But you wouldn't accept it. I've been around a long time. I was just like you when I worked my butt off for George McGovern. All I can tell you from my experience is you'll understand it all when you've got a few more years and elections under your belt.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)We just give up and let conservatism win. We just accept the bullshit that "America is center-right today, center-right tomorrow, center-right forever" and we just deal with it.
calguy
(5,290 posts)You just learn over the years that your opinion is not the only one out there. we don't get our way all the time. When the smoke clears and it gets down to one candidate on each party, you support the one who best aligns with your values and vote against the other one. In this case, your choice will Hillary or Donald. Of the two, which one do you choose? If you refuse to vote then it is the same as voting for the one you like the least.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Neo-liberal scion of the 0.01% beats Mussolini anyday. Considering that I'm a black guy with a trans Latina life partner, a Trump win literally means I have to leave the country starting November 5th. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. I want to understand why you do. Why do we have to cave to the power interests of this country? Why can't we put leftism on the ballot for once, even if it's relatively mild leftism? Look at the Tea Party, they moved the entire country rightward and the establishment called them crazy too.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)itsrobert
(14,157 posts)Are you easily manipulated by rabid right wingers who have been making up shit about the Clintons for the last 25 years?
Stallion
(6,473 posts)I suggest the answer for you can be found in what she was doing in her 20-30s. She had the same youthful enthusiasm and liberalism but realized that's not enough-Social Democrats don't win National elections-neither do liberals. Barack Obama also had that same youthful enthusiasm and liberalism. He could accomplish none of his desired liberal goals without hard earned political wins because there are powerful, well financed, determined conservative forces that will fight every inch of the way. We've had a season of naivete-now its time to get down to the hardwork of moving this Country forward. I pray you never have to live through a Nixon, Reagan or Bush administration but you probably will. If nothing else you should realize the essential importance of retaking the majority in the SCOTUS
BTW I was a disappointed Clinton voter in 2008 but Barack Obama earned my respect throughout the 2008 election and I am so proud of both my votes for him today
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Do you really buy the "center-right nation" BS the conservatives were pushing in 2004? And trust me, I was paying attention to politics in 2004 as a teenager.
Stallion
(6,473 posts)Adlai Stevenson
Eugene McCarthy
George McGovern
Michael Dukakis
Ted Kennedy
Bill Bradley
Paul Tsongis
John Kerry
Bernie Sanders
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Also Kerry wasn't particularly liberal, and nobody was beating Eisenhower in those years. And Ted was only running against a sitting POTUS.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)Because it's a life lesson. Rarely have I ever voted FOR a candidate I really believed in. You usually vote against the lessor of to evils. President Trump or Cruz would be a MILLION TIMES WORSE than President Clinton! Would you want those clows picking potentially 3 Supreme Court Justices?
However, Bernie Sanders has tapped into th e growing mood that people are tired of the Wall Street - Washington Axis of Greed. Get active and help force small changes.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)...
I think as a progressive you have to factor in the fact that she's winning the black vote in a big way. Clearly, whether you agree or not, they trust her more than they trust Bernie. Given that Hillary has considerable support among the oppressed groups, it's at least worth asking yourself if there's something you are missing.
Plus, it's worth asking why a country like ours has not yet had a woman president? Is it possible that there is ingrained sexism in our culture? Is it possible that the election of woman breaks the glass ceiling in a way that will change the country for the better for women and little girls? Electing a woman is progressive in itself.
Plus, feminist psychological theory argues that women and minorities must develop a different set of skills than white men. When a white man walks into a room, everyone listens. That's not true for most other groups. For a woman to get ahead in our culture, even in this day and age, she has to be quite exceptional. Look how few women are in positions of power. If Hillary becomes president, it's likely she'll be able to accomplish a lot simply because it takes a lot of intelligence to overcome such ingrained barriers.
Lastly, Hillary was rated the 11th most liberal Senator. Her record is not nearly as progressive as Bernie's, but it's an overall good record. Bernie represented perhaps the most liberal state in the nation, so seldom had to compromise -- but he did compromise on issues such as gun rights and the stealth bomber. If he was a senator from a more conservative state, he probably would have had to compromise more. Part of Hillary's history is that she represented constituents who were not as liberal as Bernie's. If the millennials end up helping Hillary get elected, she will do an okay job representing them. After all, she's a politician.
I say all this as someone who voted for Bernie. I have always liked Hillary, but I agree Bernie is the better person because he's been so consistent and so progressive throughout his life. But, that doesn't mean Hillary isn't progressive, just that she is less progressive than Bernie.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)been in the national spotlight for decades.
Bernie was ignored by the media for most of the campaign.
If he'd been able to get his message out earlier, he'd be much better positioned to get African American votes now.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)What in the world do you mean that African Americans don't know much about Bernie? They know as much as anyone else. Why wouldn't they? Why would they know less than millennials and others that back Bernie? He's been getting his message out very effectively. If he hadn't been, then he wouldn't be where he is today. I think blacks simply don't see things as much through an economic lens as Bernie does. They see racism as separate from economic discrimination. Bernie has pretty consistently seen racism as a byproduct of economic inequities. A lot of minorities, not just blacks, disagree. But to imply that African Americans know less than others about Bernie is just the kind of tone that alienates people from him.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)cable or airwaves political news--and they tell me they are supporting Hillary because they know her and they don't really know him.
A lot of the millennials who are embracing Bernie ARE on social media on the internet. They have been hearing Bernie's message. And they don't know the Clintons from the '90s because they didn't live through that period (as voting adults).
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... and others know Hillary. There are good reasons why people support Hillary Clinton. I mean, politics is about framing the opponent in the worst light, so Bernie highlights Hillary's Wall Street speeches, her Iraq vote, and her early opposition to gay marriage. Bernie's opponents responded by highlighting Bernie's support fr gun rights, his support for the stealth bomber, and his support of the Minutemen. Bernie is certainly to the left of Hillary, but Hillary did not win the trust and support of so many of the most oppressed in our society because they are ignorant. She did a lot of good things, not as many as Bernie, but still a lot.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)is an absolute non-starter.
You should vote for a candidate because you agree with their positions and you have faith in their character.
Otherwise, why not vote for Carly Fiorina? Or Sarah Palin? Or Michele Bachmann?
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... I think there are a number of feminists would consider supporting a woman candidate against a male candidate, but the problem with the conservative women you cite is that they do not believe in equal rights for women, so it would be self-defeating to support them. I think Hillary had quite a few Republican women supporting her when she ran against Obama, and not because Hillary's right wing. I think if Hillary wins the nomination this time around, a number of Republican women will back her. Equality is a difficult and complex struggle. I mean, MLK had to compromise with LBJ, people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton learned to work with the Democratic establishment, Bernie Sanders (a minority as a socialist) caucuses with the Democrats, Barney Frank and Gerry Studds worked with homophobes. There may be issues more important to you, but for many the equal rights of women is the single most important issue, just as economic justice is most important for Bernie.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)rock
(13,218 posts)What I don't understand is why you trusted Bernie.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)That's the reality that Hillary supporters are gloating to hide their apprehension of...we're the future of the party and if we hold strong, they're going to eventually have to capitulate to us over the next 4-8 years or be marginalized entirely. They want us to buy in on Clinton and surrender that reality.
We need to stand strong and await the day we get to fully dictate the direction of the Democratic party to them. Look to the lesson of 1968...the GOP had a revolution in its primary (except Goldwater pulled off the nomination), the establishment hedged and sat on the sideline to allow that nominee to lose...but because the revolutionaries never surrendered, in 1976 they nearly pulled off the upset and by 1980, the stage was set for them to annihilate the GOP establishment which was fully-dead by 1984.
I'm not saying "Don't vote for Clinton" I am saying "Don't drink the Koolaid. This party is ours if we continue to take it from them by revolution and force." They're standing on the avalanche yelling "We won!" as it rolls down the hill towards their demise in a hard-landing. We're standing on the bedrock solid under our feet...they may (it's hardly certain) have the 2016 nomination, but we have the future of the party.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)On the rare occasions she tells the truth, it's usually to bash liberals and liberal ideas.
Demsrule86
(68,455 posts)Many of you are probably in college...the right will continue to make it tough on you with their version of student loans...you think it is bad now...you should have seen it before Obama took the program from the banks...also...Bill gave us Ginsberg...we have three justices maybe four...who will either leave or die ...if a rightie appoints them...your age group might as well give up voting for say 20 years. Also, Hillary is attacked non-stop by the right...she is really a fine person.
desmiller
(747 posts)If so, she will lose the GE. No one wants to vote for career criminal.
revbones
(3,660 posts)And instead just tries to scare voters into accepting her.
femmedem
(8,196 posts)and build the Democratic Party you want.
Your age group is the party's future. It won't be long before you are the Democratic Party's leaders.
jillan
(39,451 posts)Lint Head
(15,064 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Help move her more to the left. Isn't that what really matters?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I do believe that you should not have high expectations for a Clinton administration. I fully expect someone like Jamie Dimon to be named Secretary of the Treasury and someone like Kissinger (but not, because he's too old) to be Secretary of State. In other words, no one progressive at all. Maybe some corporate retread for EPA and Interior, as well.
We've been lied to for decades. Things will not be getting better, probably ever. Not with the system we have, not with the candidates we're allowed to choose from. And certainly not from the Democratic Party. We were sold old years ago, mostly by Bill Clinton and other Third Way types. In order to "win", they (the Party, the DLC) sold out every single progressive principle. So win or lose elections, the people still lose.
I think this is the lesson she needs to learn, that people are fed up with being lied to, fed up with being on the losing end. If she is smart (and I think she is), she will truly heed this lesson and do something besides talk a good game. But in my (very cynical) heart, I think we are in for more of the same. How much of that can people take before they explode?
If Clinton beats Trump, we will have dodged a bullet, but it will also just put off the reckoning for a little while. But there will be one, sooner or later. I expect younger generations will bear the brunt. People of my generation will just have to eat cat food while we wait for sea level rise to drown us in our beds.
Basic LA
(2,026 posts)It's about the party. Democrats or Republicans. Pick one.
darkwing
(33 posts)Which policies do you care about? She has a long track record and can be trusted to act as she has in the past. Whether or not that is relevant to your particular set of issues relative to her opponant is something you should decide for yourself.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I lived in Arkansas from 1976-1984 so my knowledge of the Clintons goes back further than most peoples. She was taking all kinds of shit even back then...too liberal, a Yankee, did not change her name when she married Bill. In fact, after winning the Governor's office in 1978, Bill lost it in 1980 and Hillary keeping her maiden name was a big issue. So she legally took Bill's name, which played a role in his win in the 1982 race. But there are probably those on DU who consider her changing her name as at total sellout and not at all progressive. Even though it can be argued that had she not have done so, he would not have been re-elected and thus never served as President.
Anyway, she was blasted by the republicans and the media the entire time Bill was Governor. Then not long after he was elected President he placed her in charge of healthcare reform. And she came up with a plan that was way more progressive than the ACA. Everyone would have been covered and for the low income it would have been free. Pretty much what everyone here wants. And guess what? It crashed and burned. With an all Democratic congress. Hillary did what all the progressives on this site want, she did not compromised, pushed for the perfect solution and got NOTHING. So yeah, she learned it is better to compromise and get some of what you want that live on principle and get nothings. Most of us learn that lesson as we age.
She was the original punching bag of Right Wing talk radio which was reaching the height of it influence. I know that because at the time I was a republican and listened to it. And she has been trashed by them ever sense in the most mean and tasteless way. So much so that those talking points oozed into the general consensus influencing even many of our progressive friends. That's 40 years of taking rightwing shit. It is truly unprecedented.
I only recently joined DU and some of the posts about Hillary make me double check that I am not on a rightwing site. Hillary is not perfect, but she has spent her life working on issues which affect women and children. And I again add, she is the only public figure who in the past pushed a truly progressive healthcare plan.
I know feelings are running high. I like both Democratic candidates and will vote for either of them in the GE. Those of you who have stated you will not vote for Hillary in the GE need to be prepared to do 2 things. First, cancel you DU membership as you will be in violation of the Terms of Service. And second, several month into a Trump presidency when he is acting like the dictator he clearly is, keep your pie hole shut and do not complain. Because you will be part of the reason he is in office.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)darkwing
(33 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)as will their friends and the ones in my campaign office.
Anecdotal I know but they don't trust HRC especially on climate change. She's a dinosaur in that area and they feel the issue can't wait.
RobinA
(9,884 posts)for a spouse or a president? Don't trust any politician. They are people who are successful at winning popularity contests. Vote for the person you judge as having the best chance, of the people in the race, of governing in the way you think the country should be governed. Don't expect any of them to come anywhere near the way you would want things done, but some will come closer than others some of the time.
laureloak
(2,055 posts)She has proven it over and over and over and over again.