POC aren't buying the "Bernie's been fighting for you all his life so you should vote for him" claim

[EffieBlack]

yet that meme is not only alive and well, but is being doubled down on DU since last night.

This argument is clearly not working as evidenced by how it's being rejected by black voters so roundly and soundly that it seems to be backfiring. Isn't it time to try a different tactic for attracting the black vote?

[LexVegas]

1. Truth.nt

[RobertEarl]

25. 12% of Dem voters in SC

Doesn't mean much. Actually it was about 8% of the voters in SC that voted for Hillary. Not much to see, eh?

[Lucinda]

187. Good enough for a nice pile of delegates!

[RobertEarl]

220. 8%

The great Hillary can only get 8% of the few Dem voters in SC to vote for her. Something is seriously wrong with the party. Could be they do not want people voting?

[Lucinda]

222. I suspect that the numbers are low because they expect her to be our nominee

They'll vote in the GE.

[RobertEarl]

223. I suspect that the other 92% don't like Hillary.

In fact, it must be so. She's been running forever, they know her and they refused to go vote for her. And they just don't trust the party.

[Lucinda]

224. Nope. We had half the turnout for the 08 primary that we ended up with in the GE

it's sort of the way Dems roll. She'll be fine.

[DrDan]

238. and guess who else is not trusted there - the one with less votes than HRC

[obamanut2012]

242. Then why didn't they vote for Bernie?

[Politicalboi]

2. All we can do is show them who is a better candidate

If they like being told to go away then they chose the right one.

[Lucky Luciano]

3. So what would have worked?

what would have been good enough given he only last year decided to run?!

Was simply being another old white man a notch against him? Even if you don't want to vote for him, you speak like you actually hate his guts. I think it is hard to dispute that he is an incredibly honorable man.

[brewens]

13. If fighting for them and us white working people isn't enough, what do they want?

You'd think Hillary was promising reparations for slavery or something like that? Go figure.

[EffieBlack]

24. Maybe you stop talking at them and start listening to them

[AgerolanAmerican]

32. Hi, I would really like to understand

I confess I am baffled as to why POC vote for Hillary Clinton, and am interested to know the reasons for it. Can you help me to understand this?

[jeff47]

56. We'd love to.

But if you do something like ask questions in the AA forum, you're told to shut up and/or leave.

Outside the AA forum, we get conflicting answers. Like the prolific poster who complains about "tough on crime" policies, and demands protection from all the thugs that threaten her children, and objects to anyone trying to get clarification on the apparent contradiction.

[EffieBlack]

59. No, you're not. We in the AA forum are very receptive to honest and respectful dialogue

What we don't tolerate are people who come in to insult and lecture us. If you've been told to shut up and/or leave, you likely are doing the latter.

[840high]

92. I asked a question and

was warned. Not going back there again. You do have some members in that forum who do not welcome discussion.

[jeff47]

114. Questions with zero insult or lecture get warnings.

Honest questions trying to understand the relevant nuances get threats of blocking. No lecture. No disrespect. Along the lines of "Ok, so you're saying X....how does Y fit with that?".

Broader DU politics very much are at play in the forum.

I'd give you examples, but I'm not buying a star to open up advanced search.

[progressoid]

214. Honest and respectful dialogue. As long as it supports Hillary.

[840high]

84. That's my experience.

[brewens]

123. I'm familiar with the won't take yes for an answer tactic. How about yourself? Where are you

coming from? Well off? Not wanting to rock the boat? Secure retirement as long as things aren't shaken up to help anyone less fortunate?

[Lizzie Poppet]

139. Like Hillary does? Tell that to Ashley Williams.

[JudyM]

144. Wholeheartedly agree... Like she *did*, and he *didn't*, in this vid.

Last edited Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:42 AM - Edit history (1)

https://amp.twimg.com/v/077834f2-a406-49cd-bfd4-e6b64274e885

[Petrushka]

175. Great video! Thank you for the link.

[MaggieD]

167. Bingo

[arcane1]

252. “Do you want to hear the facts or do you just want to talk?”

"Can I talk? And maybe you can listen to what I say."

"Now let's get back to the issues that I think are important"

"Here's what you need to do."


It's not Bernie talking down to black people like that.

[Recursion]

104. So, I'd start with unpacking what "fight" means

I have yet to see Senator Sanders throw a punch or wrestle anyone, which is what "fight" actually means.

I assume you mean something else.

Unpack that meaning, articulate it, and start from there.

[EffieBlack]

137. Fighting means, among other things, doing something above and beyond just voting or giving

speeches, which is a normal part of a Senator's job.

Fighting means going out of his way, doing something hard that involves political risk, extraordinary effort or political courage. It means doing something more than what is in line with what his liberal constituency wants him to do.

Fighting means doing something for black people where black people were the primary and targeted beneficiaries, not just one of many groups that benefitted. Fighting means doing something for people of color that he would not have done anyway.

Fighting means creating legislation targeted specifically for POC (not something that benefits lots of people, including POC and that he would have done whether POC existed or not) and then working like hell to get it passed and not just letting it die in committee after it was introduced.

Fighting means standing up and blocking a unanimous consent vote when asked by civil rights activists (something I personally know he failed to do so often that people stopped asking him because it was a waste of time).

Fighting for black people means going above and beyond to protect, defend and uplift, not just voting, giving speeches and saying the right thing when asked.

[Recursion]

143. That may well be what Brewens meant; I don't know

I suspect Brewens may have meant that Sanders speaks angrily on television, because that's what a lot of people seem to mean.

[EffieBlack]

179. He could do those things and they would be good, but that would not be fighting for civil rights

Here are some things he could do:

Introduce and fight for legislation giving DC representation in Congress.

Introduce and fight for legislation to restore Section 5 of the Voting Rights .

Introduce and fight for legislation that reforms sentencing laws that disproportionately impact African Americans

Unleash his "revolution" early and get his supporters to pressure Congress en masse to hold hearings and vote on President Obama's Supreme Court nominee

[Recursion]

237. Thank you for calling out democracy in DC!!!

I'm a member of the DC American Legion post and we stage a protest about this every year at the DC War Memorial.

[bigtree]

4. I think they should go with that

[EffieBlack]

15. No, it's not a matter of opinion. It's just not true

And black voters know this. And insisting that you know better than they do about whether someone is fighting for them is only making Sanders look bad.

It's not up to me to determine what other tactics the Sanders campaign should use. But people have been telling them for some time that this one isn't working because, among other things, it's tone-deaf and condescending. The response so far has been, "NO! We're not tone-deaf and we're not condescending. You should listen to us because we know better than you do about what's best for you." I would suggest that you switch to something that doesn't sound like that.

[2pooped2pop]

22. Fine

I hope he stops playing into their game. Let them have Hillary.

[Phlem]

55. Yep. Wholeheartedly agreed.

I've lived with a Republican for a long time. When you hit that wall where nothing is gonna work, just walk away.

Of course he will still do the right thing by them but yea, let them have Hillary, we need to move on.

[Chitown Kev]

101. Well, alrighty then

[EffieBlack]

65. Casting a vote in Congress is not "fighting" no matter how much you try to so characterize it

I have yet to see anyone answer the question that has been posed on DU numerous times: What has Bernie Sanders done in the past 50 years to fight for civil rights for people of color that involved him taking a political risk or going against his Vermont base? Can you name anything?

Voting is easy. Voting the way his liberal all-white constituency wants him to vote is easy. Giving speeches is easy, especially when he's saying things that his constituency agrees with. Making statements is easy, especially when he's repeating things his constituency agrees with. Everything on your list was politically expedient for him because it was completely in line with what his constituency wanted him to do. It required no risk or courage. But no one can seem to point to anything that he has done in the last 50 years that is hard, that required him to go out on a limb, that put him at any kind of political risk.

Bernie is a good man. He supports civil rights. But he has not fought for civil rights for blacks since he left Chicago 50 years ago. And trying to convince black people to vote for him based on that record is not getting you anywhere.

[Loudestlib]

77. Let's end this BS right now

What has Hillary done for POC?

[ucrdem]

78. She's spent time with them. She knows them. She knows the conditions.

She has a 24 year history with them. Can Bernie say the same?

[Loudestlib]

85. So she has done nothing. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

134. This isn't an answer

Its a list of meaningless talking points.

[ucrdem]

165. Maybe not so meaningless. We'll see on Tuesday. The lady I paraphrased lives in AL.

"I'm a foot soldier," said 80-year-old Theresa Burroughs. "Every time there's a vote, I go."

She marched from Selma to Montgomery for the right to vote in 1965, and was a member of the Hale County Civic Improvement League — one of the nation's first grassroots civil rights organizations.

Burroughs is founder of the Safe House Black History Museum in Greensboro, a clapboard shotgun house on the edge of town.

"This is the place where we kept Dr. Martin Luther King safe," she said.

(snip)

Burroughs will be at the polls on Tuesday, and there's no question who she'll vote for.

"It's Hillary all the way," she says. "She's taken all the steps. It's no place up to go but president."

Hillary Clinton has earned it, Burroughs says. She admits she's never even considered voting for Bernie Sanders.

Clinton has endorsements from Democratic Congresswoman Terri Sewell and a host of African-American mayors in Alabama. Burroughs says that's because active Democrats here feel a connection to the Clintons.

"She's been here," Burroughs says. "She knows us personally. She knows the condition."

http://www.npr.org/2016/02/26/468260087/in-alabamas-rural-black-belt-an-uphill-climb-for-bernie-sanders

[progressoid]

206. Ironic, since in 08 she was saying the white vote was important.

Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters — including whites who have not supported Barack Obama in recent contests.

"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

"There's a pattern emerging here," she said.

[senz]

234. That is NOT true. She has NO time for PoC.

She's too busy with her 1% cronies. Too busy kissing up to Lloyd Blankfein and Henry Kissinger.

She insults AAs, calls them "super predators," tells them she'll "just talk to white people," has them physically removed from her high class fundraising functions.

She used racist attacks against Barack Obama in 2008 ("hardworking white people", suggested he might be a Muslim, showed photos in Obama in African dress).

She enthusiastically promoted Welfare Reform and the 1994 Crime Bill, both aimed at People of Color, both harming them.

Bernie has fought for Civil Rights for minorities his entire life. He knows what's going in; his heart is close to it. Bernie is not high-handed and dismissive, ever. He has NEVER talked down to AAs, never insulted them.

Hillary cannot hold a candle to Bernie when it comes to support of PoC and other minorities.

[All in it together]

245. What would Hillary do?

She's spent time with and knows poc so now she doesn't have to listen to them or propose anything just for them.

Bernie can't do it alone. He needs our help, pushing for rights was put on the back burner for years by poc. I'm not blaming them, there was a lot of violence against them when they did. But he was supposed to do it all himself? It seemed to me poc pushed away whites in the later 60's so that they could do it themselves. Is that one reason why Bernie hasn't been pushing for programs exclusively for poc?

Yeah he's been a public servant for Vermont and hasn't been running for president most of his life. Hillary has and what has she proposed that is just for poc? Inform me IDK.

[EffieBlack]

79. In other words, you can't answer the question

Hardly surprising. No one has been able to, it seems.

[Loudestlib]

86. You can't answer mine.

[EffieBlack]

95. I can answer it but I don't play the deflection game.

My OP is about Bernie and has nothing to do with Hillary.

[840high]

109. Bernie's record has been posted

many times. Hillary used POC all her life and will continue to use them.

[Chakab]

97. Casting a vote is much better than running a race baiting primary campaign against the

black base of the party when it's expedient to do. It's also better than invoking Sistah Soulja, Ricky Ray Rector, Superpredators and a bunch of other non-so-subtle coded language to appeal to racist non-blacks.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I do NOT fucking understand this level of anger and contempt directed at Sanders' record on Civil Rights in service of a candidate like Clinton who, on balance, has done more harm to black people than good. It makes no sense whatsoever.

If your point is that Bernie didn't do enough empty pandering to black audiences while shitting on the black community in different fora over the past few decades, then you're right. He can't hold a candle to her or Bubba in that respect.

[Dragonfli]

129. I agree, that is why I wrote an OP about those that would divide us in the service of the wealthy as

opposed to those that want us to unite against the servicing of the wealthy at the expense of the divided:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280123066

[GoneFishin]

132. It's campaign politics. Extreme anger does not a result from anything that Bernie has

done or not done. He has always fought for the underdog. It particularly doesn't make any sense considering that Hillary has does a number things that greatly harm struggling Americans.

It's campaign politics. That is the reason you will never be able to answer correctly.

[pkdu]

120. His own website even admits this..check this out..

https://berniesanders.com/about/

60s?...good : 2 items directly related to PoC
70s zip
80s zip
90s zip
2000s zip

[Kentonio]

230. Apart from being one of the very few whites to campaign to try and get Jesse Jackson to be president

In the damn 80's, when that kind of campaigning could cause serious political risks. Funny too how he actually got Vermont to be a win for Jesse too, considering how we hear non-stop how white and disconnected it must be.

[Pharaoh]

135. that required him to go out on a limb?

that put him at any kind of political risk?


how about his opposition to the Iraq war and the patriot act when the drums of war were pounding?

What kind of limb are you talking about. And please also point out Hillary's out on the limb moments.

[EffieBlack]

162. No, that's not what I mean. Voting no on the Iraq War wasn't going out on a limb

Voting no on the Afghanistan War WAS going out on a limb, but Bernie voted yes on that. Only one member voted no and she received death threats. THAT was going out on a limb. Voting no along with hundreds of other Members on the Patriot Act and a controversial war resolution, both of which his constituents overwhelmingly opposed, was NOT a risky proposition.

Moreover, the Iraq War vote was not a vote that advanced civil rights for people of color.

[Pharaoh]

173. Well tell me

what are some great things Hillary has done for POC?

[Chef Eric]

176. I'm not sure why you think voting one's conscience is "easy."

If it was so easy for Bernie Sanders to vote against the Iraq War, then why wasn't it easy for Hillary Clinton?

Almost 5000 American servicemen died in that war. And because people of color served in disproportionately high numbers, people of color died in disproportionately high numbers.

And then there is the issue of homelessness among veterans. There are tens of thousands of homeless veterans of the Iraq War, and the U.S. Veterans Administration estimates that half of them are African American or Latino.

[EffieBlack]

182. It's not very difficult when the majority of your constituency agrees with you.

Voting against the War posed absolutely no political risk to Sanders at all.

And the fact that black people died in the war does not make the war a civil rights issue. Black people are Americans and, as Americans they are impacted by virtually every vote that Bernie takes. That does not make every vote he's taken a civil rights issue.

[Chef Eric]

202. I'm not saying it was a civil rights matter.

I'm saying it was a matter that had a disproportionate effect on people of color.

Nor am I saying that you should give Sanders credit for his vote against the war. What I am saying is that I think you should be able to acknowledge the damage that was caused by those who did vote for the war, Hillary Clinton among them.

[EffieBlack]

205. Bernie's opposition to the war is not the topic of this thread

[dreamnightwind]

39. But it IS the truth

Propaganda and marketing often obscure the truth and win out. Most marketing campaigns are geared to create a more appealing brand and walk right up to the edge of the limits on acceptable false advertising to entice someone to buy their product. The relative merits of their product verses the competing product hardly enter into the equation.

The Hillary campaign is little more then a corporate-funded marketing campaign. Using its success as evidence of poor marketing or a poor campaign by Sanders and his supporters is like saying might makes right, not buying that crap, ever.

She has vast financial resources from the worst aspects of ur society, who will call the shots after she is elected. Most of our so-called Democratic Party is in bed with the same forces, and they are not the types to speak truth to power, they got into power by sucking up to it, not by fighting it.

You really need to learn the history of third way politicians, who funds them, what they support, and why the solutions the people need are ALWAYS off the table.

It isn't our fault the deck is stacked against Bernie and against us, and we're doing our damnedest to elect an honest un-owned candidate who fights hardest for the least of us, not for the wealthy elites. Sorry you don't understand that.

[senz]

231. ^^^ The truth of the 2016 Democratic primary ^^^

Thank you for this, dreamnightwind. You express it beautifully.

I hope they read it. I hope it opens their eyes.

[kacekwl]

122. Why is this about POC and how to get their support ?

I say the same thing to anyone supporting Hillary. If you want things to stay the same then continue on the same path.

[Vincardog]

6. Right he SHOULD have been fighting to cut their aid and send them to jail.

[rbrnmw]

23. Do you think every black person is on welfare and lives in the projects?

[KingFlorez]

30. Seems as if they think so

Sanders supporters keep talking about welfare cuts as if every black person is dependent on welfare and has no hope outside of it.

[KingFlorez]

43. Calm down

Getting crushed by 48% has made you too testy.

[JudyM]

124. Yeah, right. That's what we all think.

[Vincardog]

35. The majority would be if we followed policies advocated by one of the candidates.

[rbrnmw]

41. that's just not true and you should consider how rude your comment is

[Vincardog]

44. Rude? Please enlighten me so I can improve in the future.

[dreamnightwind]

42. No, their candidate would further "reform" welfare so they wouldn't even get that - EOM

[rbrnmw]

50. who the hell said black folks want welfare?

[dreamnightwind]

57. Oh right, none of them need it

They have great jobs and don't need welfare. Oh wait, they have astronomical unemployment and poverty?

They must need a hand up, then, not a hand out (there's some Reublican framing for you). Too bad Bernie's priorities aren't focusing on spending for job creation. Oh wait, that's exactly what Bernie will do?

They must need a candidate who will end racism, that's it. Hillary will get right on that, I am sure, and that racist Bernie Sanders has no interest in doing so. Oh wait, that's also the opposite of the reality?

Well, she LISTENS to them, instead of talking at them. Problem is, I saw the video of Bernie with BLM, and Hillary with BLM, the opposite was true.

I'm sorry, but my deeply held bellief is that Hillary's entire campaign is an empty astro-turf fantasy, throwing lies at the opposition to bring them down to her level.

[rbrnmw]

61. I believe Bernie's campaign is tone deaf and some his supporters are rude

[dreamnightwind]

63. Right back atcha. - eom

[The Midway Rebel]

74. Cool.

That's how I feel about some HRC supporters.

[The Midway Rebel]

71. Bravo!

[progressoid]

208. +1

[Lazy Daisy]

146. No

Do you believe every latino/latina is an Illegal? If not, why is immigration reform so important to them?

[MaggieD]

171. Yes, I think they do think that

Unfuckingbelievable.

[rbrnmw]

7. kick

[99th_Monkey]

8. Whether it's 'working' or not, it's still true. People will do with it what they want.

Just don't blame Bernie or Killer Mike when the train wreck happens.

https://www.facebook.com/PeopleForBernie/videos/1761559400730933/

[virtualobserver]

12. I'd like to hear some of the stories where HILLARY fought for ANY of us.....like EVER.

I know about the times that she fought for the corporations.

[Chakab]

102. She pretends to care about black people when it matters. Apparently, that's much more important

than the actual effects that the policies that she's supported had on black America.

[virtualobserver]

106. she barely even pretends

[Chakab]

113. You're right about that.

[ornotna]

18. Nice link, thanks.

Some people still choose to believe the smoke and mirrors it seems.

[EffieBlack]

20. No, it's not true. And you saying it over and over again won't make it true.

Do you really think black voters are stupid? They're telling you that Bernie Sanders has not been fighting for them, but you ignore them and tell them that he is. Do you believe that you are in a better position than they are to know whether someone has actually been fighting for them?

[2pooped2pop]

27. Yep

Its public domain. Common knowledge for those who don't turn their noses up to it. Easy to find information. They want to get played by Hillary, let them.

[Arazi]

54. Actually yes, straight from their own words

http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-sanders-black-voters-20160226-story.html

His hands caked in grime from his repair job, Walter Brown coughed out a laugh when asked for his thoughts about Bernie Sanders, whose insurgent presidential campaign has electrified liberals around the country.

“Who is Bernie Sanders?” he said while sitting on a bench during an afternoon break. Brown, 59, is already leaning toward Hillary Clinton and doesn’t plan to start researching other options.

“I don’t have time,” he said, gesturing toward the downtown building where he’s been working. “I’m here all day.”

Sanders’ effort to broaden his appeal beyond white progressives and young people has run into a roadblock here in the form of black working-class voters, who in interviews here this week repeatedly voiced their longtime loyalty to Clinton. Several echoed Brown’s point that they don’t have time to explore an alternative nor interest in learning about Sanders, a U.S. senator from Vermont who was practically unknown in South Carolina before launching his presidential bid.

[99th_Monkey]

69. This ^ is the real tragedy. Thank you so much for posting this. n/t

[The Midway Rebel]

93. Yup.

It seems some are quick to blame the failure of Bernie's revolution in SC when it just as likely the low voter turnout could be attributed to Clinton fatigue. She's a political turnoff. A real snooze fest. The best thing she has going for her is name recognition and she is, ostensibly, the familiar Democrat.

[99th_Monkey]

89. What I'm saying is, we differ in our perceptions. My perception is .

That Bernie's been fighting on the right side of virtually EVERY progressive
and civil rights issue for decades (sans perhaps guns) is indisputable IMHO,
and this perception is supported by the public record.

While the Clintons' record is riddled with a plethora of mis-steps, seeming corruption,
mistakes (always on the wrong side), and public policy disasters like welfare
reform, Iraq war, mass incarceration, et. al. , which is also indisputable IMHO.

But that's me. You see it otherwise. Fine.

I see no reason I should not be allowed to speak my truth according to my own
perceptions. Everyone has that right, correct?

[EffieBlack]

108. Of course you can speak your truth

But when that crosses over to telling black people that your truth must be their truth and if it is not then they are ignorant, naive, voting against their interests, etc., don't be surprised if your truth is not only rejected but your candidate is, too.

[99th_Monkey]

119. I never said "my truth must be your truth". Dont' put words in my mouth.

I predicted a train wreck if Hillary's the nominee, and said that Bernie and those who
busted their asses on his campaign would not be responsible for it.

Just like if Bernie's the nominee, and that doesn't go well, those who supported Hillary
will not be responsible in the same way as those who support Bernie.

This is not insisting my truth must be anyone else's .. far from it.

[EffieBlack]

125. I didn't say you are doing that. My point is that that is the attitude of many of your fellow

supporters.

[99th_Monkey]

142. Sorry, but I cannot speak for other Bernie supporters.

And to be clear, in stating my truth, I mean no disrespect to you or to
the Black community.

I'm actually happy -- whether it helps Bernie or not -- how the AA community's
vote has become a "must" for any Democrat. And I truly mean that.

[litlbilly]

66. Its just that much harder with the full media blackout. It means we have to work 4 times harder to

get Bernie's message to the people. It's that simple

[SwampG8r]

170. Yep we have to work twice as hard to get half as far

Ironic

[NWCorona]

9. I take issue with your post.

You assume two things.
1. That black voters in South Carolina represent the whole black American community.
2. That black Americans can't "buy" Bernie's claim and still be for Hillary

[ananda]

10. People can choose who they want.

They don't even have to choose the candidate, like Sanders, who
really will do right by them.

Sad but true.

[kstewart33]

40. You've just proved Effie's point. nt

[dreamnightwind]

46. Not at all, it really is the truth

and no amount of spin changes that.

[Thinkingabout]

11. K & R, voting is a personal choice.

[wysi]

14. K & R

n/t

[sheshe2]

16. K&R!

[William769]

17. Kick & recommended.

[Corey_Baker08]

19. I Think His History Of Siding With The NRA Done Him In

[Lucinda]

190. It is a big problem.

[senz]

236. That has nothing to do with this issue.

Don't be piling on just because you've got nothing when it comes to this particular issue. Your candidate can't hold a candle to Bernie on this. And I suspect you know it.

[Bread and Circus]

21. I think Black folks already have their minds made up and it doesn't matter what is said or done.

Doubling down won't help but it won't hurt either.

So why not just hold fast to the truth?

[EffieBlack]

29. Or you could try considering the possibility that your "truth" isn't true at all

And the people who are in a much better position to determine what's true or not in this situation are telling you something different, but you refuse to listen to them.

[Bread and Circus]

147. Look, you folks linked a bunch of articles which had a lot of quotes that basically indicated people

had their minds made up, liked Hillary "enough", and didn't seem to give Bernie a chance.

I didn't dig the articles up, y'all did. Bravenak and others, maybe you too.

I am not criticizing their choice in Clinton in and of itself, I am just pointing out it seems a lot of people already had their minds made up.

To act, as you do now, that somehow what we say on DU affected the vote in S.C. is pretty silly don't you think?

Double down or not, 99.99999% of Americans don't give a shit about DU.

I am one of the group of ardent Bernie Sanders supporters here who feel he has always been a long shot and that Clinton has a near strangehold on the nomination. I still do.

But this whole discussion of race for the past few months has been a pretty shitty experience for me. It's just a bunch of exploitative political crap that is great for the Clinton campaign in the short run but hurts the Party and progressive values in the long wrong.

A house divided cannot stand.

But if you don't think that white folks, including Clinton and her gang, won't kick you to the curb as soon as it becomes politically necessary, then you obviously haven't studied U.S. History as of late.

Blacks are a tiny minority of the electorate and the vast majority of Americans aren't really going to sacrifice a lot on their behalf. A lot of them don't even care.

You know this. I know this.

But right now, Blacks are important to Clinton...for the next month or so... but at the first sign of electoral trouble... wait and see... just watch.... it'll be back to "white hardworking Americans" "superpredators" and "bring 'em to heel".

Yes, Clinton is great with tokenism...she is known to "appoint blacks" to high positions. But outside of that, it seems she has a shitty sad record.

[EffieBlack]

156. More lectures about how we don't understand what's good for us.

Your belief in our ignorance and naiveté has been noted - and provides the very foundation for my OP. Thanks for illustrating it so perfectly.

[Bread and Circus]

169. So...just because people are Black I can't disagree with their political choices and think they...

are making a mistake?

Seriously?

Yes, I think voting for Hillary Clinton is a mistake, whether you are white, kinda brown, brown, dark brown, or black...or any pigment level for that matter. I think a lot of people agree with me.

And given that this political discussion board, where we routinely discuss our views and opinions, it kind of goes with the territory that we will voice our opinion when we think our allies are making a mistake.

It's like when a friend wants to bet on a bad stock but you believe there's a better stock...it's likely you are going to say something....especially when the whole notion of a discussion board calls for it.

I think when y'all say..."don't tell us how to think, how to vote, or who to like" is kind of silly considering where we are.

Would I ever approach you in real life and yell at you and say Effie! Stop!!! Don't vote for Hillary?

The answer is no...because in that context it's not my place to say so.

But in the context of a discussion board...it kind of is. That's why we are here.

If you don't like it, then maybe avoid DU rimaries???

I mean, what do you expect?

On the other hand, I do feel there has been a sour grapes inference that Black People and South Carolinans are stupid or uneducated by Sander's supporters. I think that's wrong and in bad taste.

However, there's a difference between categorically suggesting people are stupid and suggesting people are making a stupid choice.

I think Clinton is a stupid choice.

It's a discussion board, you have to live with me saying so.

I guess I have to live with people acting like I am a racist.

C'est la vie

[Bread and Circus]

193. ^^ I guess this was good post :)

[Autumn]

209. Good post? That post was

fucking awesome!

[redstateblues]

212. Kind of like white folks eh?

[Bread and Circus]

219. Considering Sanders went from 3% to 30%+ you would be incorrect.

With whites he moved. With blacks not so much.

Math.

[nichomachus]

26. Like everyone else, they are

Free to vote against their own best interests.

[EffieBlack]

37. Too bad they refuse to let YOU determine for them what's in their best interest

Black folks learned a long time ago how to think for themselves and not to swallow the crap that people who have never given a damn about them, don't know them and don't listen to them tell them about what's in "their best interests."

[dreamnightwind]

49. Many people of all races vote against their best interests

It's as American as apple pie, or somethng.

[Lucky Luciano]

246. The white republican rednecks in SC would also say

"How dare you tell them us what is in our best interest!"

They are hopelessly damaged people.

However, I think white liberals assumed POC were always on the same team - and are aching for answers as to where things went wrong. There is no aching for answers from white republican rednecks voting against their interest - they were hopeless to begin with.

[EffieBlack]

247. You're not "aching for answers" - you're pissed off because black voters have decided to vote

for a Democrat other than Bernie.

[Lucky Luciano]

248. I'm not really that pissed off. I'll be fine either way.

Probably pay less in taxes so that is the silver lining.

I make the statement almost as just an outside observer. As my sig line says, I do like that he is not full of shit. We haven't had such a candidate ever really....and if he could pull off a win without any corporate backing that would be pretty cool.

[morningfog]

28. I don't think that was ever a serious attempt by the campaign.

DU posters are, for the most part, just regular people posting whatever comes to mind.

I find Sanders inability to win over African Americans a very interesting topic. He clearly failed in SC. He could not have done much worse.

I don't presume to have the answer to what he did wrong or how he could fix it. It would be presumptuous and insulting for me to act like I had the answers.

Having said that, I will put myself out on a small limb in deconstructing his clear failure. As a preface I strongly disagree with anyone who blames any group of voters for their loss. I strongly disagree with anyone who claims any state, region or race does not matter or that they should be ignored.

I am more interested in understanding what went wrong. I saw this coming for some time and have held back on offering my opinion. I never suggest I know better than someone else for whom they should vote.

I am sure there are countless reasons for which I am unaware or ignorant. There are undoubtedly dynamics which I just don't get.

This is my humble take. Bernie, as a democratic socialist, I think, follows the basic principle that analyzes all struggles as class struggles. In that world view, racism is fundamentally a class issue. The remedy, the solution, is equality. If everyone has a right to higher education, health care, a living wage, a clean environment as well as the abolition of the drug war and for profit prisons, many (most?) of the symptoms of systemic racism would be addressed. Even if he is right, it glosses over the significance of the racial disparity. I fault him for not better articulating both his diagnosis and his remedy as well as his lack of recognizing the unique and justified rage of persons of color.

That, plus, Hillary was able to speak to the African American community and earn the endorsements of critical civil rights figures, organizations and elected representatives.

I don't see how Sanders can correct course at this stage of the race. It is disappointing for me as a Sanders supporter. But again, I do not begrudge anyone for their choice of vote.

[rbrnmw]

34. Thank You

[EffieBlack]

52. Thank you

This is a very thoughtful analysis.

I think you're right that he did not do a good job of articulating his diagnosis and remedy. But layered on that is, in my opinion, a failure to listen to the people he is trying to convince, but instead he insisted on telling them what he wants them to know without showing a real interest in better understanding their interests, needs and perspectives. This failure makes it difficult to shape a message that resonates with that audience. For example, his mantra of "millionaires and billionaires" just doesn't resonate with most black folks I know who see racial oppression woven throughout society, not just coming from the upper 1%. Railing about millionaires and billionaires just does respond to the very real concerns of the black community.

But even in this, Bernie has always been respectful and dignified in his manner and approach. Unfortunately, this can't be said for many of his supporters who have turned off countless people of color with their rude, condescending and often bullying attitude and behavior.

It's unfortunate that more of his supporters haven't been as thoughtful as you.

[passiveporcupine]

192. How do you think he could address the black community without ignoring the whites?

Has he had an opportunity to address crowds that are majority or all black? If so, did he still use his same stump speech about millionaires and billionaires?

Or has he always been addressing crowds that are majority white, in which case, you are asking him to not address the majority and to focus just on blacks instead?

I'm not trying to corner you here. I'm honestly wondering if he has addressed black crowds and didn't approach them differently than white crowds?

He does address issues in his speeches that are primarily aimed at the black community, like when he talks about jobs programs for the high unemployment rate for black youth, and he's talked about the prison system and how it needs to change, and community policing that tries to make the police force representative of the community. He's been very strong on the policing problems.

When and how is he supposed to listen to blacks? He's hired Symone Sanders as outreach for blacks and I would think he would be listening a lot to her. Does she not understand and listen to blacks?

You said:

But layered on that is, in my opinion, a failure to listen to the people he is trying to convince, but instead he insisted on telling them what he wants them to know without showing a real interest in better understanding their interests, needs and perspectives.

Has Clinton done this? When I see her giving speeches, she pretty much does all the talking and not listening. I've not seen her do what you are asking Sanders to do...stop talking when he's giving a speech and listen to the audience.

Have your people reached out to his campaign with your concerns that you think are not being addressed?

I've not seen anyone actually voice those concerns here. I've heard a lot of people say he's not listening, but never say what isn't being heard.

[EffieBlack]

200. Campaigns are much more than rallies

I've seen some on DU make fun of Hillary's small crowds, juxtaposing photos of Bernie's huge mega rallies with photos of Hillary Clinton in smaller settings. But those small settings are often where real connections are made and much is learned. Hillary has been doing that for decades and has become a known quantity. She's known in our community as one who listens and listens intently. And then she follows up. She has a comfort level with black people that Sanders doesn't have. She has blacks on her staff and in her inner circle and always has. People can see that in those small settings.

Sanders, on the other hand, has spent very little time with African Americans and it shows. He was known in the Senate for not having many black staffers, when he had any at all. In Vermont, that wouldn't be surprising, but his DC office was also surprisingly non-diverse. It's not that anyone thinks he's racist - he isn't by any stretch of the imagination - but minorities just aren't his radar screen.

And yes, he talks about jobs and policing. But those are only a narrow band of issues that concern African Americans - and those issues don't impact all blacks and, in fact, too much focus on them give the impression that we're being stereotyped and pigeon-holed. He does not talk about racial division and structural racism that plagues this country and will not be addressed by narrowing the gap between rich and poor. People have made very clear that these are serious issues in the black community, but the response from him and his campaign is usually to just keep talking about what they want to talk about without responding or adjusting their message to what we're really interested in. That's why people keep saying he's tone deaf.

Black people don't have it out for Bernie, so when we say that he isn't connecting or needs to adjust, it's not a slam or a plot. Yet his supporters treat us as if we are either stupid or out to get him because we're in the tank for Hillary - as if we are naive children who can't figure out on our own what's in our best interests and have been hoodwinked by the clever Clintons.

[passiveporcupine]

215. Maybe I'm being tonedeaf, but I'm not hearing many answers to my questions

Concerning what Sanders can say to you to address your many issues. What has Hillary said to address those same issues. First, we need to know what those issues are.

And I'm serious here. We keep asking but nobody is answering.

And yes, he talks about jobs and policing. But those are only a narrow band of issues that concern African Americans - and those issues don't impact all blacks and, in fact, too much focus on them give the impression that we're being stereotyped and pigeon-holed.

OK, I can see how this could come across and stereotyping and pigeonholing, but I think this may be due a lot to the BLM movement right now, and the issue of police killing blacks, which is directly related to policing issues and poverty issues and underemployment, that leave a high percentage of black youth susceptible to drugs, gangs, and violence. I think that is why he is focusing on things to help black youth become educated and employed. But that alone will not fix the problems of profiling by cop, although it will help a lot if poor black neighborhoods can be lifted up. Part of the reason for profiling is the war on drugs and the focus on poor urban youth gangs, which often tend to be POC. And of course having all white cops in black neighborhoods. That has to change. So what else here is he not hearing? What suggestions do you have?

So lets talk about middle class black neighborhoods. What do they need or want that Bernie isn't addressing? Bernie has always voted to protect affirmative action to help POC get jobs and into colleges. What else can he do?

He does not talk about racial division and structural racism that plagues this country and will not be addressed by narrowing the gap between rich and poor.

To be fair, I've not see Hillary talk about this either. What plans does she have that will help this? What kinds of things do you think our country can do to change this?

I've not heard anyone lay out any ideas about how to address this, other than over time people will evolve. And we are slowly evolving (but it's a generational shift). You don't see it nearly as much in our educated youth. Education and new perspectives will eventually weed out a lot of this. Unfortunately we still have a lot of old racist assholes in this country.

[radical noodle]

226. This ^^^^^^

EffieBlack just nailed it.

[Orrex]

88. A refrain that I've heard again and again...

Is that people of color will embrace Sanders once they hear his message and learn of his history.

Well, that's lovely, but if it's true, then what the heck are they waiting for? The clock's ticking, and if the campaign hasn't gotten his message out by now, then who dropped the ball?

Some here on DU, myself included, expressed the view early on that the demographic purity of Sanders' home turf did not portend easy success among minorities. That concern was dismissed as Third Way fear-mongering and GOP sabotage, but here we are a few short months later and South Carolina tells a very different tale.

We'll see what Super Tuesday holds in store, but as the days go on it will be harder and harder to blame defeat on the evil machinations of evil Hillary.

[morningfog]

111. As a poli-sci student, I am a firm adherent to blaming

the candidate/campaign for failing to build the winning coalition. The same get credit for their wins.

I admit I didn't see the problem as early as you, but did recognize it in the SC polling for the past couple months.

[Arazi]

33. How about the meme that African American voters have done their research

That AA voters have done their research and know the issues!11!

His hands caked in grime from his repair job, Walter Brown coughed out a laugh when asked for his thoughts about Bernie Sanders, whose insurgent presidential campaign has electrified liberals around the country.

“Who is Bernie Sanders?” he said while sitting on a bench during an afternoon break. Brown, 59, is already leaning toward Hillary Clinton and doesn’t plan to start researching other options.

“I don’t have time,” he said, gesturing toward the downtown building where he’s been working. “I’m here all day.”

Sanders’ effort to broaden his appeal beyond white progressives and young people has run into a roadblock here in the form of black working-class voters, who in interviews here this week repeatedly voiced their longtime loyalty to Clinton. Several echoed Brown’s point that they don’t have time to explore an alternative nor interest in learning about Sanders, a U.S. senator from Vermont who was practically unknown in South Carolina before launching his presidential bid.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-sanders-black-voters-20160226-story.html

[Dragonfli]

36. His record is clear and consistent, they are simply buying a falsely labeled product insteed

Whose record shows she has at the very least not been fighting for POC all her life and who may actually be a full blown racist.

They are buying sawdust in a parmesan cheese can due to false advertising and equally advertised lies about a consistently good product that is clearly documented to be as labeled. That is what happens when you watch too much TV full of false advertising that is financially sponsoring (contributing) to the false advertiser.

[AtomicKitten]

47. great analogy

[msongs]

80. why are you not decrying her vicious attack on "the mob" lol nt

[Dragonfli]

91. In order to reply, you have to make sense, your post's meaning eludes me /nt

[Doctor_J]

45. OK. A lot of people are voting for Trump too. And a lot for Cruz. So what?

People are free to vote against their interests, and often do. Bernie actually has been fighting for minority rights for 50 years - since back when Hillary was working for Goldwater, right on up through the time when she and Bill signed the crime bill and said that Obama should be carrying their bags.

And you can save the poutrage about whites not getting it. I also don't live in Appalachia, but I know damn well that people who do live there are voting against their interests when they vote Republican.

[Robbins]

48. well

you are welcome to trainwreck that is clinton.

go ahead and call bernie and all his supporters racists.it's the new memo by clinton supporters and susposed neutrel people.

[elleng]

51. Try this instead, as it's true: "Bernie's been fighting for you all his life."

[EffieBlack]

58. Funny how just about the only people who seem to think this are white Bernie supporters-most of whom

probably haven't been involved in civil rights for black people in any meaningful way.

Meanwhile, Bernie hasn't made any impression on most of the black people he's supposedly been fighting for his entire life. Either black voters are stupid or Bernie's not been a very effective freedom fighter.

I go with the latter.

[elleng]

75. I'm a white Martin O'Malley supporter,

heavily involved in Civil Rights for many years. Civil rights was why I went to law school.

YOU're the one suggesting black voters are stupid; I'M certainly not doing that. I did see a post earlier stating that OLD black people are failing in this regard, noticing, that is. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1363698

If he failed, it was in not publicizing that he was doing what he was doing to garner votes. He was as good a freedom fighter as any.

[SamKnause]

53. Don't buy it then.

See how simple that was.

[Cheese Sandwich]

60. When you phrase it like this, I will agree

A couple days ago you said something similar and I strongly disagreed. But when you say it like this I have to agree.

I'm a huge Bernie fan. But I wish for the love of god please white Bernie supporters stop trying to convince black voters in that way.

I can't believe how racially clueless some people are. Picture yourself in the other person's shoes. Would you want to be lectured about who to vote for based on your race by someone of a different race?

Just say who you are voting for and why. Post a picture of Bernie getting arrested, say that's why you respect him. OK, makes sense. Let people draw their own conclusions.

But don't say Hey black people you should vote for Bernie because he was cool 50 years ago.

It's the way you say it. You can talk about his civil rights record and even what he did in the 1960s. But don't aggressively assert that black people should do one thing or another, especially if you're white. Please guys you don't realize how annoying it is.

You can read and post article by black writers and bloggers. But again, ok present info and let people draw their own conclusions. Don't use it to browbeat people into voting one way or another based on their race.

I know most of you don't mean any harm by it and it can sometimes be exaggerated but there is also some truth to it.

[EffieBlack]

72. Thank you

[EffieBlack]

81. Yes, because noticing that someone is appealing almost exclusively to white people is "bringing race

into it."

[EffieBlack]

117. If a black candidate only appealed to black voters, they would not be taken seriously

And no one would blame white voters for not being open to that candidate. It would be assumed that the candidate is limited, narrowly-focused and not doing enough to reach out to a broader range of voters.

Yet when a white candidate appeals to almost all whites, folks seem to think that's no big deal - and in fact, often blame black voters for not "getting it."

[NWCorona]

103. When it's being used as a wedge, yes it is

[Cheese Sandwich]

87. Yes and no

Race is an issue in America. Did the Clinton campaign deliberately try to drive a wedge between the Sanders campaign and black voters. You better believe it. And that was dirty.

But are some Bernie supporters racially clueless, accidentally maybe, and made it worse? Ya.

I like Bernie but some Bernie supporters misunderstand what types of statements sound annoying to black people.

[bettyellen]

225. not just misunderstanding, many here flat out said people were lying that they were offended.

Lying and or stupid, over and over again. For months.

[TheFarseer]

64. any suggestions?

The economic argument didn't work, this doesn't seem to be working. I really don't get it. Hillary isn't going to do anything for black people that Bernie isn't going to do. Was Bernie a Colonel in the Confederate Army and I'm the only one that doesn't know?

[bkkyosemite]

68. Bernie is fighting for everyone not just one group. Everyone!

[Phlem]

110. Amen. Every working man and woman get's a break no matter what.

Equality, if one can't embrace that then what's the point?

From a Filipino.

[jalan48]

70. Thanks for the info.

[rbrnmw]

107. I love you

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

116. Much love to you and Effie, too! You guys are true fighters. Don't give up standing for what you

believe in!

[rbrnmw]

126. I won't ever shut this mouth

[melman]

128. FFS

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

157. FFS is right! ;)

[ThePhilosopher04]

96. It's not a "claim," it's a FACT.

whether black voters choose to acknowledge it is up to them. The goal is to attract votes, period. The message will resonate with those who have an open mind and an appetite for fundamental fairness and real change.

[basselope]

98. "tactic"?

Bernie should just keep being Bernie.

Any change to that tactic would ruin his best quality.. his authenticity.

If the democrats make the mistake of going with Hillary and we wind up with President Trump, people will have to look inside and wonder how it happened.

[malletgirl02]

99. I'm black and

I don't believe Hillary Clinton has done anything of consequence for black people. Why should I vote for her?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

105. You shouldn't owe an explanation. And that's the point many of us POC's have been trying to make.

You should vote for whomever you want without being ridiculed or insulted. That's precisely the point!

I don't like HRC, either, but I'm no BS fan as well.

Neither candidate does it for me.

Hmmmm....

Could it be why turnout is so low on the Democratic Party side?

[Chakab]

140. Actually, that's not the point. The issue is that plenty of people like the OP are actually angry

that Sanders is purportedly trying to "fool" black people into voting for him while they clamor for support of a candidate who doesn't give two shits about any constituency but the monied class and has attacked the black community when it suited her for decades.

Nobody should be told who to support, but the fact that the anger in the OP's post is directed at Sanders rather than Clinton and her empty, and clearly calculated and triangulated pandering is truly mind-boggling to me.

It just doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever.

If you're mad because Sanders stopped fighting specifically for the black community after the 60s and is now trying win black votes, why wouldn't you be at least as mad at the Clintons for doing significant and real harm to black America (and plenty of other communities) with their policy and rhetoric?

Sorry for repeating myself, but I'm seriously at loss to understand this mindset. I also have to point out that this is largely localized to the members of online political forums like DU. In reality, there's been no rebuke of Sanders and his "dishonesty" by black voters. The average black Clinton supporter is simply ill-informed (like most Americans irrespective of race) about who Sanders is and the reality of the Clintons' record.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

153. Who says I'm not angry at HRC? I don't support either candidate. I've said this many times.

Neither one has said or done anything that I feel is sincere when it comes to black voters.

You'll get no argument from me on HRC or her husband, that's for sure.

However, I ain't feeling the Bern, either.

I'm sorry that you seem to have trouble not accepting this, but it is what it is.

[Chakab]

158. My post was an attack on the OP's logic not you directly. Sorry, if it didn't come

off that way.

I don't fault you in any way for not supporting Bernie.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

160. Ah, no worries. I understand that this primary season brings on much passion. I wish some of it

would rub off on me. I'm not enthusiastic at all.

Well...Donna Edwards running for the Senate (and winning) makes me enthusiastic, but that's about it.

[Chakab]

177. I'm not enthusiastic about this election at all. I just really don't like the Clintons, and I

am flabbergasted to see other black people, who frequent forums like this and have been exposed to the realities of their records, fervently supporting Hillary.

[slipslidingaway]

148. Unfortunately the Party decided who should be the next President, but not everyone ...

is falling in line.

Votes are earned and should not be taken for granted and we should not seek to divide by race, gender, sexual orientation or age.

It is sad that DU has allowed such division to creep into posts over the last year plus.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

151. No one disagrees that votes should be earned. Both candidates have to earn those votes as well.

I see one ignoring more diverse states in favor of less diverse states. Doesn't sound like "earning" to me.

The Democratic Party is a diverse party.

[slipslidingaway]

161. The structure, like it or not, is about earning delegates and Money to run ads and buy ...

influence in the corporate media, it is a sad state of affairs.

Those who choose not to accept corporate dollars need to spend their money and time in the most effective manner to hopefully represent all people.

[rbrnmw]

115. I'm voting because of the Supreme Court

I want to have the right to vote

[EffieBlack]

150. L_S is right

You don't have to explain your choice to anyone. If you don't want to vote for Hillary, don't vote for her. Support whomever you want.

But for some reason, many Bernie supporters feel entitled to demand that black voters vote for their candidate and when any of us choose not to, they feel further entitled to demand an explanation from us - followed by a lecture about why we're wrong.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

100. Kicked up HIGH!!!

[MisterP]

118. so why's only one candidate still have to be protested by BLM?

and why does she look like someone with a hornet's nest down their jams every time?

[Lancero]

130. Actually, BLM did a recent protest at one of her events.

The protestors were escorted out by her SS escort, and her supporters went on to attack the BLM protesters and praise her for quickly removing them.

[Lizzie Poppet]

145. And her own reaction was both vile and revealing.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

121. "Isn't it time to try a different tactic for attracting the black vote?"

They don't give a shit about the black vote, remember?

South Carolina doesn't matter. None of those states where the vast majority of black and Latino Democratic voters are matter.

Ahhh...


But Oklahoma matters.

West Virginia matters.

Minnesota matters.

Hmmm....wonder why....

[Lizzie Poppet]

154. Screw tactics. Just tell the unvarnished truth about your policies.

If that doesn't work with a group, any group, then your goals and that group's probably aren't in sync. They're not going to vote for you, and tweaking your "tactics" to attract them anyway is dishonest.

I truly hope there's no confusion about which Democratic candidate is more likely to do the former...and which is more likely to embrace the latter.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

159. I actually agree with all of this, except for your last statement, which is a matter of opinion...

I don't think either candidates truly gives a shit.

[PatrynXX]

127. Uh actually they are

generational gap Young feel betrayed by the older generation

[Bubzer]

186. And rightly so. They've been sold out.

[Gothmog]

131. This argument is not working

[AgingAmerican]

133. Then don't believe it

?

[R. P. McMurphy]

136. As a Bernie supporter . . .

I don't believe there should be any tactics to try to win your support. You should evaluate both candidates on their past record, what you believe they will do that is in thr best interest of you and the people you care about, and which you believe will work for the benefit of the nation as a whole. None of us has perfect knowledge and we all should vote our conscience. If you vote for who you truly believe will best protect us and look out for our best interest - you have done an awesome thing.

[EffieBlack]

152. Thank you!

[azurnoir]

180. you pointedly leave something out and that is fear

especially in the South the first Black POTUS is about to leave office and I suspect there is great fear of white backlash, and not without cause Donald Trump is living proof of that and simply put the belief is that Hillary stands a better chance of winning than Bernie- they know her- she eats sweet tater pie with Black folks in Detroit what has the media said about Bernie-from the get go it been here's this old white guy from a tiny all white state way up north-says he marched with King but the news paper says he's lying, note I'm talking about the specific demographic that voted last night from what I've read it was mostly older 50 to 60+ not folks you'll find on twitter maybe on Facebook but not other social media the newspaper never retracted Capeharts story the M$M ignored the debunking completely, this sort of thing has been going on all along the way - There's more the older Southern Black democrats are conservative-won't be swayed by Hillary's confrontation with BLM, why I'll venture a guess they themselves aren't big fans of BLM either, the mind set is closer to stop actin' a fool and pull your pants up and the police will most like leave you alone
Now you can say I don't know what I'm talking about cause I'm whit but I've been around older Black church folk my entire adult life starting with my daughters Grandmother and her family -most were pastors for either COGIC or AME churches

[MaggieD]

138. Yep

[SunSeeker]

149. K & R

[PoliticalMalcontent]

155. It seems to me that most older folks

Seem to be going with Hillary Clinton as she's the known quantity. It helps Hillary that from afar she is akin to a Rorschach test. People see what they want because she's taken every position under the sun. Most people just don't have the time to look at other options.

This Sanders guy is new and different and in dark times people gravitate toward known quantities.

Objectively, Sanders has been working toward equality for folks of all walks of life. That's a fact. Clinton has had a history of doing quite the opposite, all in the name of politics. It's not something that endears me to her and I don't feel her presidency would ever work for people such as myself. Why would I vote for her?

[slipslidingaway]

164. Not all older folks are for Clinton, on the contrary many are tired of for voting for ...

'the lesser of two evils.'

[SoapBox]

163. What EXACTLY has she done?

[EffieBlack]

168. This thread is not about Hillary. It's about Bernie

Feel free to start your own thread asking that question - I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses to your question if you're actually interested in the information rather than in just deflecting the questions about Bernie's record.

[jg10003]

172. Bernie's NAACP rating is 100% for the past 25 years

[EffieBlack]

185. Thats great. But the NAACP only scores whether he voted the way they wanted on particular bills

They don't rate anything else. As I said, Bernie has always supported civil rights and votes accordingly. But voting isn't fighting.

[Beowulf]

178. I think white Bernie supporters, and I'm one, should just shut up and listen.

We are both a movement and a campaign. Movements last a much longer time than a campaign. There's not a lot of time during a campaign to make oneself familiar and to make supporters comfortable, especially with groups who are rightly suspicious of strangers promising good things. I think many Bernie supporters expected it would be easy to attract AA's and Latinx and that's clearly not the case and never should have been thought the case. It does smack of taking AA's and Latinx's support for granted - something the Left bristles at when looking at the DNC.

It a movement and it needs to build coalitions. This takes time to develop the trust needed to work together. It's a good question to ask what Bernie has risked and, I hope, it would also be asked of Hillary, but I don't think white Bernie supporters gain much by pointing out Hillary's deficiencies. In some respects Bernie has less to risk. His seat in Congress is one of the safer ones. He doesn't try to be all things to all people. He can take sympathetic positions, honest positions, and not really have to pay much political cost. I think he could be bolder, but most of all he needs a team of AA and Latinx advisors who can help him dialog with AA voters and together develop strategies to meet shared goals. Right now he has a national stage. He might use that stage to hold a dialog about race. Instead of always offering answers, he could be asking what the questions should be and then what possible answers might be. And his white supporters would do well to do the same.

As far as whether or not AA are voting against their own interests, that's really not a question for whites to enter the discussion. It's arrogant to assume as outsiders what a group's or individual's interests are. We can listen. We can offer what we stand for. We can offer to work together. But we can't argue.

One of Bernie's strengths in this campaign is that I don't think he sees losing the primary as defeat because the movement will continue. There's freedom in that position and I think you can tell that by comparing how the candidates conduct their campaigns. Bernie's supporters would do well to remember that we are playing a long game that doesn't end with the primary or the November elections. Saturday's results just means we have more work to do.

[EffieBlack]

191. ^^^THIS THIS THIS

Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a clear explanation of what so many of us have been trying to convey!

[Beowulf]

195. You are most welcome!

[jg10003]

216. He also has less to gain.

In some respects Bernie has less to risk. His seat in Congress is one of the safer ones. He doesn't try to be all things to all people. He can take sympathetic positions, honest positions, and not really have to pay much political cost.

Bernie doesn't support civil rights because he has too in order to be re-elected. He does because it's the right thing to do.

[Beowulf]

217. Yes, you stated it better than I did.

[jg10003]

218. Thank you

[Nyan]

181. Why are you so bitter? Why are you so angry at Bernie?

What has he ever done so wrong? You are mad because he doesn't pander hard enough?

[EffieBlack]

183. I'm neither bitter nor angry and I've said nothing that should make you think I am

[Chitown Kev]

198. Hmph!

[Nyan]

199. Okay...whatever that is.

[Bubzer]

184. Why? Because it isn't reaching those in the reddest state in the union? Gimme a break.

[Schema Thing]

188. ....and that's sad, considering the alternative especially.

[TIME TO PANIC]

189. We're living in bizarre times, my fellow progressives.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

194. Let us worry about that. You should worry about your candidate.

[democrank]

196. Bernie HAS been fighting for all people.

And he never said, "Bring them to heel."

[Autumn]

197. All people should vote their conscience, be it for Bernie, Hillary or Trump.

People who don't want to vote for a candidate, shouldn't vote for a candidate.

[noretreatnosurrender]

201. My opinion

In my view you can't blame any voter for not voting for a candidate. If the candidate didn't get their vote it's the candidate's fault not the voter. In 2000 there were a lot of people on DU who blamed Nader and people who voted for him for causing Al Gore to lose. They acted like they owned those voters (sound familiar?). I heard many arguments that if Nader wasn't in the race those voters would have voted for Gore, like they actually knew for certain how other people would vote. It was insulting. Gore (the candidate I supported) should have worked harder for those votes if he wanted them but he didn't. In Gore's case it wasn't detrimental to his campaign because in my opinion Gore actually got the most votes in 2000 any way. He only lost because the election was stolen but that's another issue.

The point I'm trying to make is stop blaming voters for not being inspired by the candidate that inspires you. You can't force someone to be inspired and talking down to them is a surefire way to turn them off. Do I want my candidate to inspire the black community - HELL YES but if he can't I won't blame those voters. Is it possible for Bernie to win a larger share of the black vote going forward? Is it possible for him to communicate better with the black community and earn their trust? I hope so because I want to be fighting side by side with my black brothers and sisters to achieve a better world for all of us. The bottom line for this Sanders supporter is that without more support from the black community we will never achieve what this movement is about.

[dchill]

203. "POC aren't buying "

That's OK. It's not for sale. It's at least true.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

204. Broad claims in a low turnout are unwise....

Especially when you reduce things to a sales pitch.

[whatchamacallit]

207. Hey, I've got an idea

Don't vote for him.

[yuiyoshida]

210. AGAIN I will say this...AS A POC

YOU DON'T GET TO SPEAK FOR ME...

[Number23]

229. Effie specifically mentioned the black vote. Why in the world do you think she's "speaking" for you?

[yuiyoshida]

240. Read the tittle...POC

" POC aren't buying the "Bernie's been fighting for you all his life so you should vote for him"

I am part Native Hawaiian, and Part Japanese, neither of which is Caucasian. I hate it when people use broad brush statements like POC will not vote for Bernie Sanders, when that is totally
untrue.

[Number23]

255. It's clear that she's specifically talking about black people. No one has applied the "fighting

for your rights since forever" meme to any other group.

But if you feel that this is something you need to be up in arms about, I won't get in your way.

[Hiraeth]

211. You can lead a horse to water but, you can't make 'em drink.

[HooptieWagon]

221. Sanders has never said that.

It's merely part of his history. If you want to vote for someone who has a history of fighting against PoC, then vote for her.

[HassleCat]

227. Different tactic?

I don't know what that would be, but it wouldn't seem honest. He is what he is, and he offers what he offers. He can't just make up something.

[artislife]

228. I didn't know we had a lot of Black SC voters on DU. nt

[Cha]

232. Word, Effie! Thank you!

[CreekDog]

233. I like Bernie, but his criticism of Hillary's "clinging" to Obama's record was a mistake

Most liberals are defending the best parts of Obama's record, not for his sake, but because we don't want those things undone by a Republican later on.

He probably made things even worse by saying that he'd improve race relations more than Obama has. I understand that presidential candidates are supposed to think they can do everything better than their predecessor, but come on, that was pretty tone deaf.

Should they be fatal for his nomination? No, but they lost him some points in a race where he needed to gain about that same amount.

[That Guy 888]

235. Great, another post race-baiting for Hillary. n/t

[TCJ70]

239. People doubt a lot of things that are true...

...see creationists, for example. Just because someone doesn't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true.

[obamanut2012]

241. k & r

[Gothmog]

243. Great post

[Vinca]

244. It was a slap in the face for a person's life work. Wish someone would share the real reason.

[Martin Eden]

249. Whether anyone "buys" it or not, Bernie Sanders has indeed been "fighting for you" all his life ...

... and with the policies he will push as president -- much more so than Hillary Clinton.

It really isn't that close.
But, of course, everyone has the right to vote for whomever they please whatever their reasons may be.

[Jester Messiah]

251. Funny thing about truth

It's true whether you "buy it" or not.

[Maedhros]

253. Clinton propaganda has apparently worked. [n/t]

[Gothmog]

254. One of the reasons why Sanders is not appealing to POC voters is why I am supporting Clinton

There are good reasons why many voters including some African American voters are not supporting Sanders. I believe that one major difference explains one of the big divides between Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters. There is a vast difference in how Sanders supporters and Sanders view President Obama and how other Democrats view President Obama. I admit that I am impressed with the amount accomplished by President Obama in face of the stiff GOP opposition to every one of his proposals and I personally believe that President Obama has been a great President. It seems that this view colors who I am supporting in the primary http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/clinton-sanders-obama_us_56aa378de4b05e4e3703753a?utm_hp_ref=politics

But lurking behind this argument about the future is a dispute that's really about the past. It’s a debate over what Obama accomplished in office -- in particular, how significant those accomplishments really are. And it's been simmering on the left for most of the last seven years.

On one side of this divide are activists and intellectuals who are ambivalent, disappointed or flat-out frustrated with what Obama has gotten done. They acknowledge what they consider modest achievements -- like helping some of the uninsured and preventing the Great Recession from becoming another Great Depression. But they are convinced that the president could have accomplished much more if only he’d fought harder for his agenda and been less quick to compromise.

They dwell on the opportunities missed, like the lack of a public option in health care reform or the failure to break up the big banks. They want those things now -- and more. In Sanders, they are hearing a candidate who thinks the same way.

On the other side are partisans and thinkers who consider Obama's achievements substantial, even historic. They acknowledge that his victories were partial and his legislation flawed. This group recognizes that there are still millions of people struggling to find good jobs or pay their medical bills, and that the planet is still on a path to catastrophically high temperatures. But they see in the last seven years major advances in the liberal crusade to bolster economic security for the poor and middle class. They think the progress on climate change is real, and likely to beget more in the future.

It seems that many of the Sanders supporters hold a different view of President Obama which is also a leading reason why Sanders is not exciting many African American voters. Again, it may be difficult for Sanders to appeal to African American voters when one of the premises of his campaign is that Sanders does not think that President Obama is a progressive or a good POTUS.

Again, I am not ashamed to admit that I like President Obama and think that he has accomplished a great deal which is why I do not mind Hillary Clinton promising to continue President Obama's legacy. There are valid reasons why many non-African American democrats (myself included) and many African American Democratic voters are not supporting Sanders.

I personally am proud that President Obama is our POTUS and I do not want to abandon his legacy. This viewpoint explains why many good Democrats are not supporting Sanders including many African American voters. Sanders' legacy in the civil rights movement is nice but does not overcome this concern.