2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Who? Sanders is a phantom to black voters in South Carolina
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/02/22/bernie-who-sanders-is-a-phantom-to-black-voters-in-south-carolina.htmlhoosierlib
(710 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)And he has only a few days...
hoosierlib
(710 posts)And to lose GA, AL, LA and LA by the same margin...
Hence why are heavily investing pur resources in 5 states for Super Tuesday; VA, TX, CO, MA and OK...focusing on growing Latino support as the AA matters a lots less after after Super Tuesday...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)'The aa matters a lot less after super tuedsay' you do realize that that is marginilizing the black population of voters when you are dismissive of our importance? This is one of our issues. It appears our votes are being replaced or being attempted to replaced by white votes or young votes.
Please remember that if the white vote is split, along with the latino vote, the black vote is what provides the margin of victory. This is how he lost Nevada and can be repeated throughout the swing states and the entire South and west.
hoosierlib
(710 posts)Seriously, what else?
The dude freaking was at the March on Washington and went to jail fighting for segregation at the University of Chicago (while HRC was campaigning for Barry Goldwater).
He was been one of the most vocal white defenders of the Civil Rights Act and proponents of Equal Pay and LGBT rights (mind you in a state with 1% AA).
He has called for the end of the for-profit prison industry (HRC has taken money from their lobbyists), the decriminalization of marijuana and freedom of prisoners who were sentenced to mandatory minimums sentences (who majority AA).
He has called out cops for protecting their own and demanded they be prosecuted.
What else does the AA community want?
Does he need to get on the Arsenio Hall show and play the sax too?
So yeah, he's done his best to get his message out (and will again tonight), but time, money and his staff are finite resources. If the AA community isn't receptive to his message and outreach efforts, then he needs to focus his efforts where they can get the biggest return for his investment.
Through the first three states, he has won the vote and potentially the Latino vote. After Super Tuesday there are only a handful of states that have a population of AA greater than 15%. Yes they are an important group, but while you can lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink if they don't want to...
bravenak
(34,648 posts)hoosierlib
(710 posts)Somebody hurt your feelings or something?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)hoosierlib
(710 posts)Getting your feelings hurt or Bernie keeping his people in check?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)ALBliberal
(2,344 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)ALBliberal
(2,344 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Response to bravenak (Reply #76)
Post removed
ALBliberal
(2,344 posts)R B Garr
(16,979 posts)Sanders' campaign. We've all noticed it, and many have had posts hidden here for expressing what they've noticed, but you've come out and confirmed it.
well HRC supporters have been dismissing the support for Bernie from white progressives in states like NH and Iowa etc. so what's the difference?
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Response to HERVEPA (Reply #61)
rbrnmw This message was self-deleted by its author.
Chakab
(1,727 posts)hoosierlib
(710 posts)And that after Super Tuesday, only the states of Maryland, Missouri and Mississippi have populations where AA are greater than 15% of the population?
From a strategic standpoint, what I said is true and you can see it reflected in where the Sanders campaign is deploying its assets and resources (the state of TX, CO, OK, VA and MA). Go forward (i.e. after Super Tuesday), Latinos will be a much greater voting block. Hence why Ms. Huerta was attempting to create a fake scandal (yes, its bullshit) and hurt Mr. Sanders prospects. Its dirty politics at its finest.
Unlike Hillary, Bernie has finite resources (time, money and people power) that have to be allocated efficiency and effectively across the country. His margin of error is a lot smaller than Shrillary's...
R B Garr
(16,979 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 08:57 PM - Edit history (1)
as it relates to minorities and just basic outreach. Your further words show how disingenuous the outreach really is. At least you have confirmed the OBVIOUS.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)...actions all throughout his campaign.
He knew what his polling in SC was like and didn't bother coming down and talking months before the election...
If he didn't know I don't want his dumb ass near the White House... any politico paying half ass'd attention knows about SC in the primaries
R B Garr
(16,979 posts)campaign. Agreed about him not being near the White House if he just writes people off who don't blindly cheer for him. He's all about his applause lines, but when it takes time and effort to reach out, he's gone as soon as it doesn't favor him. He's very self-serving.
Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)Because Hillary won't win the general. People don't like her. People don't trust her.
ALBliberal
(2,344 posts)I think I read where she backed off. Funny didn't here people crying that she was dissing the white vote. Don't remember that at all
R B Garr
(16,979 posts)country is about the "white vote", so I'm sure you have no point.
Jury: This thread is about Sanders outreach with the AA community in SC since that's where the next primary is being held. I only brought up the "white vote" in response to the post I responded to. Thank you.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)He'd still fight like hell in office to achieve the things he's campaigned on to improve AA communities. Because that's the kind of guy he is, he doesn't keep revenge dossiers or toss out his campaign promises once he gets elected. If a majority of the AA community don't feel they can trust him yet then that's really sad (but understandable), but you can be damn sure that they'll trust him after watching him in office for 4 years.
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)...simply that AA-specific campaign plans are not quite the imperative in most subsequent primary states as they are for Super Tuesday, in that POC play a (relatively) smaller part in most of those primaries.
But that doesn't mean AA *concerns* are less of an issue. I think Bernie would say that he has a very AA-friendly platform and background, and will continue to have it.
Some members of the AA community may disagree, of course.
Maybe Bernie does not know how to court the AA vote any more successfully than he has. Heck, when people here have posted "well, what should he do?" queries, they don't get great answers either. It's possible there's simply nothing he can do, against the goodwill that Clinton has banked.
Some good news for Sanders is that, when members of the AA community learn about him, he is seen favorably by about the same percentage as see Hillary favorably. (See http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511149130 )
But that doesn't necessarily yield a vote. Someone who likes both of them can still only vote for one. But to the extent he can increase awareness, he should be able to pick up *some* votes... the problem is, at least when it comes to Super Tuesday, he's running out of time.
It's unfortunate that he has to look forward to contests with fewer AA to have a good shot at doing well. I'm sure that's not his preference, but it is the circumstance he is in. Not for lack of trying (IMO).
hoosierlib
(710 posts)R B Garr
(16,979 posts)people get their posts hidden for quoting Sanders himself.
thesquanderer
(11,992 posts)R B Garr
(16,979 posts)You can't even post his own words about who he is attracting to his campaign.
But thanks for noticing.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Response to bravenak (Reply #2)
Name removed Message auto-removed
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)hoosierlib
(710 posts)"Poll: 'Dishonest,' 'socialist' top word lists for Clinton, Sanders
By Nick Gass
02/23/16 06:52 AM EST
Hillary Clinton's image among all Americans is decidedly negative, while Bernie Sanders' is slightly more mixed, according to the results of a new Gallup poll released Tuesday.
When asked what comes to mind when they think of the former secretary of state, roughly one-in-five Americans 21 percent used the words "dishonest," "liar," "don't trust her" and "poor character." Another 9 percent said some variant of "dislike her," followed by 8 percent who said they "like her" and 7 percent who said she is "capable of being president" and "qualified." But an equal share of 7 percent called Clinton "criminal," "crooked" and said "she belongs in jail." The balance of the responses above 3 percent for Clinton reflect largely mixed public opinion, with 5 percent deeming her "experienced," and 3 percent each calling her a "good politician," "strong" and "wouldn't be good for this country." Overall, 51 percent of Americans expressed a net negative opinion of Clinton, while just 29 percent were positive and 6 percent were neutral.
The top response for Bernie Sanders, who has long professed to be a democratic socialist: "socialist" (12 percent). Responses for Sanders were not as unified in one direction as they were with his opponent, with 6 percent calling the 74-year-old Vermont senator "older" or "aged." Another 5 percent used the word "favorable," while yet another 5 percent called him a "fresh face," using the words "new ideas" and "change for the better."
Still, Americans had some fairly negative things to say about him as well 4 percent used the words "crazy," "delusional," "idiot" or "unrealistic," while another 4 percent used the word "unfavorable."
Sanders' largely split public image is also reflected in 3 percent of those who said they liked him and other equal share of people who called him a "communist," a frequent refrain of Republican front-runner Donald Trump. Overall, 20 percent of Americans expressed a net negative opinion of Sanders, while 26 percent were positive and 32 percent were neutral.
Gallup conducted the telephone poll between Feb. 13-14, surveying 1,014 adults nationwide with an overall margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points."
Good luck winning the GE election with those numbers...
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)Bravenak, I hope you're doing your part to let the black community know about Bernie. At the very least, people should be aware of the choices they have when it comes time to vote. It amazes me that the rest of the country, outside of the black community, has really come around to Bernie. But for some reason he's still not even known to many African Americans. What's going on?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I do reach out for Hillary. It is up to his supporters to spread the word in a positive way. It is my job to divert their attention back to the pluses of my candidate. It is not that his name is not KNOWN. It is just that I am in my thirties and people I talk to are near my age or younger mostly. And they want to know how will he be able to get it done. I have nothing to tell them.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)I may be a Bernie supporter, but if someone asks me about Hillary I do my best to talk about her strengths *and* her weaknesses. People should be able to make their decisions on their own once they gain knowledge about either candidate.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)There's nothing wrong with that even if you disagree with them.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)But the details are light and I am detail oriented. I am an artist and a poet. Things must be just so or not done at all.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)It is my belief that Bernie is being held at a higher standard than other candidates before him. I don't know why, but people demand details to his plans without demanding the same from other candidates.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)He deserves more scrutiny as he has not been vetted nationally. His plans are much bigger and as such DEMAND more details. Big plans, big questions.
Complaining that people want to know how he plans to do his plans is really interesting. If he is serious, he should have had his bullet points laid out before he announced his run. A lack of answer and planning and organizing is his issue to overcome. We are not going to give him a pass on the detils. As this goes further, the questions will get more pointed and increase magnificently. This is the big time.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)I just don't buy it. There's a lot of candidates who are running for the first time and none of them are facing this type of scrutiny. Even Obama didn't have these types of questions lobbed at him, and if he did, people didn't seem to mind as much.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)We will vet him.
0rganism
(23,970 posts)radical plans will require more thorough explanations, it's only natural.
Bernie has a vision, but there are many hurdles to achieving it even if Democrats win back the senate in 2016 and the house in 2022 (earliest i could imagine it happening).
the question remains, on the way to achieving Sen. Sanders' vision for America, what will the intermediate steps be like? because we might get stuck along the way, and have to live in that intermediate zone for years to come.
Gothmog
(145,567 posts)One of the reasons I keep objecting to the Sanders supporters citing hypothetical match up polls is that to me it is clear that Sanders has not been fully vetted which means that these polls are worthless. No one is going to rely on these polls and change their vote. Dana Milbank has some good comments on general election match up polls https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/democrats-would-be-insane-to-nominate-bernie-sanders/2016/01/26/0590e624-c472-11e5-a4aa-f25866ba0dc6_story.html?hpid=hp_opinions-for-wide-side_opinion-card-a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory
Watching Sanders at Monday nights Democratic presidential forum in Des Moines, I imagined how Trump or another Republican nominee would disembowel the relatively unknown Vermonter.
The first questioner from the audience asked Sanders to explain why he embraces the socialist label and requested that Sanders define it so that it doesnt concern the rest of us citizens.
Sanders, explaining that much of what he proposes is happening in Scandinavia and Germany (a concept that itself alarms Americans who dont want to be like socialized Europe), answered vaguely: Creating a government that works for all of us, not just a handful of people on the top thats my definition of democratic socialism.
But thats not how Republicans will define socialism and theyll have the dictionary on their side. Theyll portray Sanders as one who wants the government to own and control major industries and the means of production and distribution of goods. Theyll say he wants to take away private property. That wouldnt be fair, but it would be easy. Socialists dont win national elections in the United States .
Sanders on Monday night also admitted he would seek massive tax increases one of the biggest tax hikes in history, as moderator Chris Cuomo put it to expand Medicare to all. Sanders, this time making a comparison with Britain and France, allowed that hypothetically, youre going to pay $5,000 more in taxes, and declared, W e will raise taxes, yes we will. He said this would be offset by lower health-insurance premiums and protested that its demagogic to say, oh, youre paying more in taxes.
Well, yes and Trump is a demagogue.
Sanders also made clear he would be happy to identify Democrats as the party of big government and of wealth redistribution. When Cuomo said Sanders seemed to be saying he would grow government bigger than ever, Sanders didnt quarrel, saying, P eople want to criticize me, okay, and F ine, if thats the criticism, I accept it.
Sanders accepts it, but are Democrats ready to accept ownership of socialism, massive tax increases and a dramatic expansion of government? If so, they will lose.
Match up polls are worthless because these polls do not measure what would happen to Sanders in a general election where Sanders is very vulnerable to negative ads.
Again, I really do not believe that Sanders is close to being fully vetted
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)They just prefer Hillary.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)She has dined with, went to church with, cried with ect.ect.ect She's real he just went to a black church Sunday. He gave a speech he didn't sit and dine with them.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)I don't think anyone there really cared that he was there. The last thing you want to do is sit down at someone's table when they don't want you to. At least he went around and introduced himself to folks. I have to admit though, the trust thing kind of throws me a bit. The rest of the country does not trust her whatsoever. What is different about the African American community?
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)Americans again name Hillary Clinton and President Barack Obama the woman and man living anywhere in the world they admire most. Both win by wide margins over the next-closest finishers, Malala Yousafzai for women and Pope Francis and Donald Trump for men.
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)People who valued honesty as their top consideration when choosing candidates voted for Bernie something like 90% of the time. How do you explain that?
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)and my own self we prefer Hillary
HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)What is going on in South Carolina and the African American community that is so different from the rest of the country that they trust Hillary?
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)on Super Tuesday we will know who and why better then
JI7
(89,271 posts)HerbChestnut
(3,649 posts)It's tough to tell. Let's put it this way. If I were an undecided voter I would love it, but if I were a Hillary supporter I'd find it annoying and rude. How could he tell?
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)MgtPA
(1,022 posts)To many of us who have studied Clinton and his record very carefully, the kind of affection that blacks have for him and his wife is not earned, Smith said. He governed in a very, very Reagan-like way on issues of concern to blacks. I dont think most black, ordinary voters are aware of that.
And that's a shame
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)"We" <<< seriously?
R B Garr
(16,979 posts)build a black following."
This is a basic concept that many have been saying, and you've offered this same critique of him and have been absolutely blasted for it. Almost everything in that article is what you have been saying, brave! It was ignored at Sanders' peril.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You are a real asset here! I've found your takes very informational and most often right on track in explaining the polling trends with the AA community.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I try to keep up with the trend lines. Things usually go how I see them going. Lots of variables but it just takes creative thinking. I wish they had listened but you know, I am glad they did not. It was good for me to reduscover Hillary without thinking of Bill.
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)Just like you cannot win the Republican nomination without sizeable Evangelical support. Building coalitions is politics 101. Esp. when your entire governing philosophy hinges on amassing massive public pressure on congress to get things done.
R B Garr
(16,979 posts)The Democratic party is their home, and I'm sick of seeing the blatant aggressive tactics to marginalize us/them because some lifelong politician decided in May '15 to finally run for President. Enough is enough!
Great post, yavin. "Building coalitions is politics 101" yes!
Yavin4
(35,446 posts)Bernie has been in politics for decades now, and only one prominent AA elected official stood up for him.
Roy Ellefson
(279 posts)nor can you win the Dem nomination without sizable white progressive support
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)This helps to explain a lot. (I'll say no more for obvious reasons...)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)So it makes perfect sense to move on and allocate resources to audiences willing to hear him out.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)She has been there many times to SC
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)You know, by listening and learning.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)His problem is he has said the same things for decades and was not really noticed by 'the people' and pretty much ignored by his Gov. peers.
He's a good person and it's important for Mrs. Clinton to note what resonates with his supporters. I think she listens & learns a lot from Sanders, and this will only make her a better President. And him a better Senator.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Seems like a condescending headline.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)They heard his name. But he is not a part of the fabric of their lives. She is. We KNOW her. She NEVER EVER EVER goes AWAY!!!!
dogman
(6,073 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)He has not done even that much.
dogman
(6,073 posts)I figured it wasn't all that, thanks anyway.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I'll agree with that.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)nichomachus
(12,754 posts)And the more people know about the real Hillary, the less they like her.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)wildeyed
(11,243 posts)More this year than in 2008. She is more experienced now and running a better campaign. I gave Sanders a shot, but he didn't grow on me at all. 5000% better than the GOP, but he is not my first choice.
Ron Green
(9,823 posts)they're toasters, or flavors of ice cream.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)"And the more people know about the real Hillary, the less they like her." With an opinion of my own. I like her.
What's your problem? You wanna know why? I can tell you. Or is this a hit and run bern?
Ron Green
(9,823 posts)I have to agree that the truth does not wear well on her; her campaign is proving to be dishonest and nasty. Why, though, do you like her?
Skid Rogue
(711 posts)One of my young AA co-workers was for Bernie 2 weeks ago. He came up to me today and said he had switched to Hillary. He's 18, a work study student and it's his first time voting. (awwww) I asked him why he changed his mind. He said that after looking into it, he just didn't believe the bit about free tuition. It just made him start questioning everything Sanders was saying. (this is in Birmingham)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)In part because of the anger when asked about details, it makes us curious and want the answers even more.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)Once people realize Bernie's campaign is based on "quid pro quo", around the idea that if they vote for Bernie they will be rewarded with free benefits, they stop listening. I've talked to quite a few folks who acknowledged that they "just aren't that gullible." Sanders' ideas just aren't backed up by his public policy proposals. Unfunded higher education programs which rely on flawed tobin tax programs that reduce overall tax revenue just don't make sense. Bernie just doesn't have the economic chops to bring viable plans forward. Reading Bernie's plans feels like reading a law that requires you to take a toothache to a mechanic. You just end up bewildered with oily teeth.
Skid Rogue
(711 posts)And down south, African Americans and Caucasian liberals are very skeptical of false promises. We need a lot more than pretty words to make us believers. With that in mind, I'm not sure if getting to know Bernie and his platform would help his numbers that much. It certainly hasn't with the people I know.
A socialist utopia seems much more possible standing in the middle of New Hampshire, than it does in the land of Roy Moore.
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)To Hillary
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)There's no excuse not to know about 2 candidates this close to the election.
rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)they aren't ignorant at all guess Bernie shouldn't have implied our kids were hangin out on the corner. He may have meant something else but they took it as an insult.
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)JI7
(89,271 posts)But they still support Clinton for president.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Chakab
(1,727 posts)besides pandering around election time.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Bernie fans are so fond of eh?
Can't imagine why Bernie gets no traction with PoC
Chakab
(1,727 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Maybe you will feel better next Saturday when Hillary takes Bernie to the woodshed in SC
I know I will
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Cobalt Violet
(9,905 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)I already voted for Hillary early. This is earth shattering. Woe is me.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)No one seems to know anything about him.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)MrWendel
(1,881 posts)"Do the right thing" if that doesn't stir the soul of Black America nothing will!!!
You find very interesting stuff.
ALBliberal
(2,344 posts)The general lack of civics education in our country.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)ALBliberal
(2,344 posts)More of the general state our citizenry finds itself in a situation where a large section of voters in SC is unaware of who the remaining candidate is that's opposing HRC. I think it's unfortunate esp. when their primary is days away.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)It couldn't be because of the relative money and media coverage that millions still don't even know who he is? Oh no! This is a totally deserved victory for the people's choice.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Beacool
(30,253 posts)Hillary will win SC and the SEC handily. Did you think that it was unfair that Sanders won NH by such a large margin? I don't, people came out and voted for him. That's politics. Why should large numbers of AA feel any loyalty for Sanders? They didn't even know his name until a few months ago.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Cha
(297,692 posts)Response to bravenak (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Bernie Sanders has eight days to win the hearts of black voters in the Deep South. Before he can do that, he has to prove to them that he exists.
I just heard about him a couple weeks ago, said church deacon Harry Cheeseboro, 63, on his way to services Sunday morning in the South Carolina city of Orangeburg.
I didnt know a thing about him until now, said grocery store manager Terrance Davis, 39, as he sat in a barbershop in Columbia.
I dont know much about Bernie, said Millicent Middleton, 51, in her airport shuttle in North Charleston.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/02/22/bernie-who-sanders-is-a-phantom-to-black-voters-in-south-carolina.html