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white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:07 PM Dec 2012

Do you view Buddhism as a religion or a philosophy?

I would be interested to hear what DU thinks of this issue. Whether you practice it as a religion or philosophy doesn't matter to me I would just like to hear opinions on this matter. Even if you don't practice, I'd still like to hear your view. For the philosophy side we have the fact that the 4 Noble Truths and 8-Fold Path are devoid of any supernatural elements. We also have the fact that Buddhism is atheistic or at the very least agnostic and that the Buddha discouraged blind faith. Faith is important, but it's a faith that begins with doubts and is confirmed through practice.

For the religious side we have the doctrines of Karma and rebirth. Now Karma could be viewed as a purely natural phenomena, as in if I'm a jerk people will be a jerk to me back or at least not like me. Rebirth is a bit harder to justify, but I suppose it is possible. Beyond that, there is the issue that several branches of Mahayana Buddhism have a very faith "deity" centered approach. Pureland springs to mind.

Either way, I'd love to hear opinions on this issue.

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Do you view Buddhism as a religion or a philosophy? (Original Post) white_wolf Dec 2012 OP
Philosophy Of Life - Not Religion cantbeserious Dec 2012 #1
Buddhism is accepted and practiced as both throughout the world randr Dec 2012 #2
depends on the sect mzteris Dec 2012 #3
I don't know of any that worship Buddha white_wolf Dec 2012 #4
but the "worship" mzteris Dec 2012 #7
Religion. bananas Dec 2012 #5
Don't forget the monks, monasteries, temples, rituals, etc bananas Dec 2012 #6
i am really facinated at the really serious misconceptions about Buddhism. rabid_byter Feb 2013 #21
Is there a difference between the two? ellisonz Dec 2012 #8
I think so. white_wolf Dec 2012 #9
Many would argue that this is a distinction without a difference... ellisonz Dec 2012 #10
Many Buddhists are atheists obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #18
to paraphrase Bill Clinton - who now visits Buddhist temples in NYC, fairly regularly .... marasinghe Dec 2012 #11
Buddhism is both a religion and a philosophy! WanderingYogini Dec 2012 #12
Welcome to DU and I hope you enjoy the site. hrmjustin Dec 2012 #13
On a tangent, sort of, I view religion as distinct from spirituality in that religion is organized byeya Dec 2012 #14
There are variants depending on tradition. Some seems like religion mmonk Dec 2012 #15
I think... SoapBox Dec 2012 #16
Ethical path obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #17
For me it's all in how one responds to doctrine. GliderGuider Dec 2012 #19
actually Buddhism is a 'Psychology'. rabid_byter Feb 2013 #20
I never thought about it from the angle of Psychology, but it makes sense. white_wolf Feb 2013 #22
I view it as spiritual, value-based psychology JudyM Mar 2013 #31
I think the Buddha would say that it is a path leftyladyfrommo Mar 2013 #23
You said it well libodem Mar 2013 #24
It is so flexible Newest Reality Mar 2013 #25
I believe Buddhism is a religion for several reasons. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #26
I think the Dalai Lama called himself a Compassionate Agnostic. leftyladyfrommo Mar 2013 #27
Sure, but none of that means Buddhism is not a religion. nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #28
Depends on your definition of religion. leftyladyfrommo Mar 2013 #29
I think of religion as supernatural answers to life's "big" philosophical questions. ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #30
I've been reading the Delai Lama book on Anger leftyladyfrommo Mar 2013 #32
Although reincarnation is not worshipped, belief in reincarnation is belief in the supernatural. Pterodactyl Apr 2013 #35
I guess I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what it is. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #33
In my view, it is a religion. Pterodactyl Apr 2013 #34
I think most people refer to it as a religion. leftyladyfrommo Apr 2013 #36
Yes. grantcart Apr 2013 #37
Philosophy Of Life just like AsahinaKimi Jun 2013 #38
Religion, at least in Asia. M.G. Oct 2013 #39
either, both, and more. MasonDreams Oct 2015 #40
Philosophy and psychology vlyons Oct 2015 #41

randr

(12,418 posts)
2. Buddhism is accepted and practiced as both throughout the world
Sat Dec 1, 2012, 06:34 PM
Dec 2012

The study of Buddhist teachings and the adherence to Buddhist doctrine on the path to enlightenment are quite different and also quite the same if you catch my zen.

mzteris

(16,232 posts)
3. depends on the sect
Sat Dec 1, 2012, 07:57 PM
Dec 2012

my son decided he was Buddhist at 9. It didn't take him very long to figure out the differences between those who "worshipped" Buddha and those who espoused the philosophy of Buddha.

He announced not long after that he was a Ch'an Buddhist. Not any other kind.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
4. I don't know of any that worship Buddha
Sat Dec 1, 2012, 10:43 PM
Dec 2012

Even the Tibetian center I went to made it very clear that they don't worship Buddha or consider him a god.

mzteris

(16,232 posts)
7. but the "worship"
Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:49 PM
Dec 2012

nonetheless. They believe in "god(s)". Sorry if I misquoted, etc. He was the Buddhist, not I, so I may have mistated.

I do know he was very adamant that he supported Buddhist philosophy, not the "religion".

bananas

(27,509 posts)
6. Don't forget the monks, monasteries, temples, rituals, etc
Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:30 AM
Dec 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_monasticism

Buddhist Monasticism is one of the earliest surviving forms of organized monasticism in the history of religion. It is also one of the most fundamental institutions of Buddhism. Monks and nuns are considered to be responsible for preserving and teaching Buddhist teachings and guiding Buddhist lay followers.


There's a lot more to Buddhism than just philosophy.

 

rabid_byter

(40 posts)
21. i am really facinated at the really serious misconceptions about Buddhism.
Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:08 AM
Feb 2013

"...responsible for preserving and teaching Buddhist teachings..." i assume that is out of Wikipedia...

Tibetan tradition is based on what is called "Transmission". when you receive a Transmission, you are hearing what was originally spoken to a monk by the Buddha 2600 years ago. who was trained in verbal transmission, he passed that on to other monks, etc.. and the Buddha's words have been networked down to today.
when you receive a Transmission from a monk you also get history, insight and interoperation . it is fairly ritualized. it is a really big deal, it is rare ..

becoming a Buddhist involves serious study, you can not mix traditions. if you pour even a little bit of rancid crap into a big vessel of Ambrosia you end up with a big vessel of rancid crap. i really don't know where ya'll get some of this stuff.. but it is mostly rancid crap. i'm not trying to be rude, but it's a fact. if people did what is done here to a Jew, they would immediately stop and tell you you were wrong, and want to know where you got those ideas.

i am telling you this because there is obviously a coordinated program of disinformation going on to confuse you guys... i practiced whatever form of Buddhism was available nearby as i traveled since 1970, i finally ran into a real Tibetan Monk and Songa, he had been the chant master of the Dalia Lama's Monastery. i studied under him for 8 years, three 3-4 hour meetings a week plus my own 2 hours practice at home 4 days a week, for 8 years. i didn't ritually become a Buddhist till after my 5th year there.

here is how it works, religion is religion.. it's called religion because it isn't something else. Buddhism is Buddhism, if it were religion they wouldn't call it Buddhism. you cant be a Buddhist and be a Christian or Muslim because there isn't any religion in Buddhism. if you believe Jesus can save you you don't need Buddhism.. you will NOT find the word 'Faith' in the glossary of any Buddhist book or teaching, Faith isn't a factor in Buddhism and you can't be a Christian, Jew nor Muslim without Faith.. with all the information on the internet, some here are really dedicated to insisting to that which is not true

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
9. I think so.
Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:50 PM
Dec 2012

Religion is more supernatural based, more based around gods and worship. Philosophy has some basis in reality and logic.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
10. Many would argue that this is a distinction without a difference...
Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:30 PM
Dec 2012

...what we're really metaphysically talking about are systems of belief. A great deal of energy has in fact been expended locating "supernatural basis" within "reality and logic" to no certain profit.

marasinghe

(1,253 posts)
11. to paraphrase Bill Clinton - who now visits Buddhist temples in NYC, fairly regularly ....
Mon Dec 3, 2012, 01:00 AM
Dec 2012

it depends on one's the definitions of religion & philosophy.

if one means religion in the sense of one's fate being governed by the whims & fancies of supernatural beings, who have the power of ordering one's destiny -- then, it is not religion.

on the other hand, if one means religion in the sense of a practical way to live one's life, guiding one's own destiny towards a stated end, then it is religion.

to use an analogy: Buddhism is a combination of both the Science of Physics, and the application of that science -- as Engineering.

at least, that's my take; i may be mistaken.

12. Buddhism is both a religion and a philosophy!
Fri Dec 7, 2012, 01:43 PM
Dec 2012

This might be a good example of how labeling things takes the conversation away from the real point, particularly when the dualistic trap of "this or that" is imposed.
For example, i raise the question of whether Buddhism is atheistic or agnostic and posit that it is neither.
For starters, isn't it important to move beyond the notion (label) of God as a super being who happens to be a Him?
I know of a definition of God that perfectly reflects my Buddhist understanding of Buddha mind, Buddha nature, the absolute truth, or whatever one may choose to call or think of the way things really are (and it is all of the following):
infinite mind, spirit, principle, intelligence, life, truth, love.
This is excerpted from the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science. As far as I'm concerned, this understanding of God is completely consistent with and no different from the essence of my Buddhist beliefs as expressed by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche as to the "natural state of mind, unmistakenly and exactly as it is, [which] need not be sought for elsewhere but is present within ourselves."

 

byeya

(2,842 posts)
14. On a tangent, sort of, I view religion as distinct from spirituality in that religion is organized
Fri Dec 7, 2012, 08:43 PM
Dec 2012

in a defined structure with defined authority; and, spirituality seems to be part of humanity because all studied cultures be they animists or Roman Catholic(say) have spiritual elements. It may be just the sense of awe one often feels contemplating the night sky on a clooudless moonless night but it's incorporated into the culture at hand.

Buddhism differs in several important ways, one of which is for most traditions, it's something you do and work towards. Meditation whether that of no-mind, or Rinzai koan wrestling, or thanka contemplation, or scholastic study of the suttas, makes Buddhism unique and, with a master to guide you, quantifiable. Maybe simplistic but: If you do A, B, & C, a master can tell you if you're ready for D or already there.

As for the monks and nuns and begging, in most Buddhist communities, they provide needed community services at various significant points in life such as marriage, illness, consoling the bereaved, etc, gratis.

Taking all the above, I believe Buddhism is akin to a science - a science of life to me anyway - plus being an asset to the community. It is certainly not a sky-god religion but having a defined structure removes it from animism and random spirituality.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
15. There are variants depending on tradition. Some seems like religion
Thu Dec 13, 2012, 08:01 PM
Dec 2012

while others, a philosophy on awareness. Whatever it is, I like it for the most part. I don't view Buddhism as dogmatic and you are free to accept what works for you in trying to reach nirvana.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
19. For me it's all in how one responds to doctrine.
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:55 PM
Dec 2012

<opinion>

Buddhism without the doctrine is a philosophy. With the doctrine it's a religion.

In Christianity, Islam and Judaism the doctrine is central to the system, making them more inherently religious than a lot of schools of Buddhism.

In Taoism or Advaita there is very little doctrine.

Some schools of Buddhism make it easy to tease the doctrine and the philosophy apart, and one can adhere to the philosophy with no requirement to internalize the doctrine. This makes it more accessible to people who come from another (or no) doctrinal background.

</opinion>

JudyM

(29,294 posts)
31. I view it as spiritual, value-based psychology
Fri Mar 15, 2013, 07:16 PM
Mar 2013

Spiritual principles of compassion, etc applied by understanding and disciplining the mind. Psychology, itself, as a science, seems to me to take no position on the right way to treat other people except to the extent of understanding how to motivate them to react as you'd like, i.e., instrumental behavior. Buddhism concerns itself with applying principles to abate suffering not only for the individual actor, but for those affected by his/her actions.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,874 posts)
23. I think the Buddha would say that it is a path
Tue Mar 5, 2013, 12:04 PM
Mar 2013

He searched until he found the Way for each individual to free themselves from human suffering and endless rebirth.

After you meditate for a long time you really do find a wonderful sort of freedom from earthly ills and entanglements.

Just living an ethical life helps. But meditation and really concentrating on mindfullness are just so important.

Newest Reality

(12,712 posts)
25. It is so flexible
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 12:17 AM
Mar 2013

and multifaceted that it is utilized as both. It can also be a form of ancient psychology, or medicine, so to speak.

Some people just want to go get blessing from the Lama and have a good feeling or expectation of good fortune in the future. Maybe the read some sutras and try to be more ethical and kind. They may be at a stage where they take literally what is a metaphor or conflate the internal and external. From that religious perspective, they always have an opening to enter the monastic, messianic or apocalyptic vehicles, and not necessarily in any order. They are, even from a religious and devote belief perspective, imprinting something on their mind-streams and, most likely, benefiting in various ways from Dharma. However, the same can be said of sincere followers of any religion.

Philosophy as a basis for understanding what we know and how, as well as an insight into behavior and relationships is valuable for those who sit back and think about things like that and need to appease their minds by way of inquiry and answers to salient questions. The teachings of the Buddhas certainly provide a treasure trove of material in that arena.

Since the basic core of the teachings is about removing the various obscuration of the shining mind, which is understood as liberation in respect to disturbing emotions and enlightenment in respect to disturbing/obscuring thoughts, the philosophy and logic involved in clearing the mind, (clear-light mind) would imply something transcending a merely religious approach, and yet, it does not exclude, at any point or stage, the rather rare, sudden realization of either or both along the way. When you are ripe, you are ripe, no matter how it comes about. In fact, one obscuration can be to expect how and when it will emerge and unfold since it is literally right here now, nothing new, and never goes away.

However, I am not a Buddhist which just means that I don't subscribe to any particular facet of the ism aspect. My practice is Buddha-dharma and largely pragmatic in that it includes whatever works. Exploring the vehicles and their methods as a whole can lead to sudden insights as to how they relate, what Dharma actually is, and what the core essence of liberation and enlightenment is or is not.

So, the flexibility includes that approach as well as investing yourself in a particular vehicle or school of Buddhism in whatever way fits closely to your current proclivities and tendencies.

While wrong and right way are initially important in the relative sense and discernment depends on them as a foundation, eventually that can lead to the kind of clarity that reveals the absolute relationship of that duality and how the relative and absolute coexist.

I think people tend to look at Buddhism and relate to what captivates them where they are conceptually. The various methods and schools may be available to you, but your tendencies will stick quite naturally to one or more. The dynamics are flexible and you could follow one or move from one to another or even try to swallow the whole lot, depending on you, not the teachings themselves. They can fit like spandex, or a baggy pair of jeans. Sometimes you go naked like Samantabhadra, the adibuddha.

I'm not discouraging or encouraging a particular way to practice, though I do encourage a realistic and fair investigation into the methods, logic and means. What I would suggest for us Westerners is to relax more and more and more. Dive into Dharma in a way that feels comfortable and resonant with what you most deeply understand to be your current nature as you are because, that's where you are going, anyway. Worry less and trust that your insights will grow as you continue sincerely and with the right goal in mind. You may find that the provisional teachings will be your ladder to the definitive and that right understanding of the relative, or conventional truth will naturally reveal the essence of the ultimate or absolute truth implicit in your every experience. Then inner clarity will shine on the definitive teaching most brightly!

While it is enjoyable to enter debate on these matters, (is it more like this or more like that) I have found it impossible to pin the tail on the dharma and, rather than finding that frustrating. it turns out to be revealed as not a negation, but a proof of what the dharma actually is. It is quite the mirror and the reflection is what matters until the mirror reflects nothing else, not even itself.

Religion, philosophy, psychology, ontology, cosmology, medicine? That is a matter of imputation of course, Interpolation and repudiation from our side plays a big part in determining that. The degree of compassion that wells up and becomes action is the perfect and unerring barometer of the results, no matter.

Oh my! He who speaks does not know and he knows does not speak. Judging by all that writing, I've given myself away.



ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
26. I believe Buddhism is a religion for several reasons.
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 02:47 AM
Mar 2013

First, they consider themselves a religion, as proven by their tax-except status.

Second, many Buddhists believe in reincarnation. It's a major pillar of Mahayana Buddhism.

Third, some Buddhists believe in supernatural beings, such as gods or spirits.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,874 posts)
27. I think the Dalai Lama called himself a Compassionate Agnostic.
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:17 AM
Mar 2013

There is no god to worship except in the religion of the common folk. They have their own dieties and such. But on the higher level there is nothing to worship.

Reincarnation is a belief in endless rebirth but it is not worshipped. Karma is what drives everything but it is not worshipped.

There is a goal - compassion and kindness that is realized thru ethical living and meditation.

The Dharma is important but those are just instructions on how to achieve the goal of compassion and kindness and freedom from the ignorance and suffering of the world.

The Buddha warned against getting too caught up in the Dharma. It points the way along the path but it is not the path. The Dharma is the finger pointing to the moon. It is not the moon.

The Buddha was asked if his way was a philosophy and he answered that it was not. It's a Way. A path that leads out of the endless rounds of rebirth.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,874 posts)
29. Depends on your definition of religion.
Thu Mar 14, 2013, 10:17 AM
Mar 2013

If your definition is simply a set of shared beliefs then just about any group is a religion. But if that definition includes the concept of a creator superhuman figure then Buddhism would not be a religion.

I never really think of it as a religion and that may be because I kind of limit my reading to the Sutras that were the actual teachings of the Buddha - not later teachers. Except in the case of Zen where I like to read what all the teachers have come up with. It's just such interesting, beautiful stuff.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
30. I think of religion as supernatural answers to life's "big" philosophical questions.
Thu Mar 14, 2013, 10:37 AM
Mar 2013

"What happens when we die?" "What is the meaning of life?" etc.

Pterodactyl

(1,687 posts)
35. Although reincarnation is not worshipped, belief in reincarnation is belief in the supernatural.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 06:32 PM
Apr 2013

And I'd say that belief in the supernatural counts as religion. Just my two cents.

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
33. I guess I don't spend a lot of time thinking about what it is.
Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:25 PM
Mar 2013

I guess most people would view a path to enlightenment as a religion, but then again wouldn't that mean that philosophy, art, music, or even science would be a religion? Maybe it's both. Maybe it's neither. Who knows? I love to attend Tibetan Buddhism Chenrezig meditation, but I take a rather agnostic view on whether Chenrezig exists or not. All I know is that the meditation helps guide my meditation and focus my mind.

Pterodactyl

(1,687 posts)
34. In my view, it is a religion.
Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:56 AM
Apr 2013

I'm sure that there are many people who practice it in a non-religous way, but it is similar to religions in a fundamental way: It describes a theory of how the universe works (that to me seems spritual or supernatural) and then provides a course of action for humans based on that spiritual understanding.

I'm speaking as a non-Buddhist myself. Just an opinion.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,874 posts)
36. I think most people refer to it as a religion.
Mon Apr 15, 2013, 01:01 PM
Apr 2013

I practice Zen but I don't think that really is a religion. It's a meditation technique. But if you add the other Buddhist principals to it then it feels like a religion.

AsahinaKimi

(20,776 posts)
38. Philosophy Of Life just like
Sat Jun 15, 2013, 01:56 PM
Jun 2013

Shinto has become. In Japan the reason Buddhism and Shinto go hand in hand is that they are both looked at as Philosophy. In life the Japanese have Shintoism. In death, Buddhism. I only wish one didn't have to travel to Hawaii or Washington state to find a Shinto Shrine. (Or clear to Japan!) but that is the way things are. Though I consider myself Jodo Shinshu, I don't really practice.. maybe I am an Atheist at heart, but I will still do the customary things .. such as sitting before a meal, putting my hands together and saying "Itadakimasu!", only because if feels correct to do so.

M.G.

(250 posts)
39. Religion, at least in Asia.
Fri Oct 11, 2013, 02:39 AM
Oct 2013

At least in Asia, Buddhism seems like a pretty straightforward religion to me; shrines to gods and spirits are ubiquitous in Buddhist countries I've visited, Siddhartha Gautama described various supernatural phenomena like various heavenly worlds, and he is attributed miraculous psychic abilities even in the conservative Pali Canon. In the Himalayas Buddhism is probably more like a "religion" than most liberal Protestant sects, with its colorful iconography and layers of Tantric mysticism.

I do recognize that there are Western interpretations of Buddhism which deny rebirth as a literal phenomenon and are completely secularized. That's certainly as "authentic" as any other kind of Buddhism, and could validly be called a philosophy, but that's still a small minority of practitioners.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
41. Philosophy and psychology
Tue Oct 6, 2015, 07:41 PM
Oct 2015

More as mind training actually and achieving a particular point of view that is altruistic and co-operative. During a meditation retreat about mahamudra, I asked the teacher, a Tibetan Lama, about the nature of buddha mind. The lama taught that in mahamudra meditation, if we are good meditators, we can experience the ultimate nature of our own mind has limitless, infinite, and present everywhere. I asked him: that as a child in Christian sunday school, I was taught that God was omnipresent, present every where; omnescient, all-knowing; and omnipotent, all powerful. That such a divine consciousness was the definition of God. Is that not the same thing as Buddha mind? To which he replied, "I don't have a problem with that."

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