Atheist 'denominations' might be helpful, reader suggests

[rug]

By Rabbi Marc Gellman, Tribune Media Services
God Squad
10:55 a.m. CDT, May 31, 2012

Q: I've been contemplating atheism of late and wishing there were denominational labels for atheism like there are for most other belief systems. Here are my suggestions:

Observant Atheists: I'm one of these. I believe that man created God, and has also created a plethora of related rituals and doctrines that support, sustain and comfort us. I love ceremony. I value the rituals that mark life cycle events and I appreciate that there are institutions that specialize in teaching moral and ethical values. I attend religious services because they challenge me to find the divine in myself and strive to be a better person. I have no problem with prayer in schools or at events because I don't consider someone else's expression of their belief to violate my own.

Classic Atheists: My husband is one of these. He refuses to take oaths that invoke God. He'll leave the room if people are engaging in any form of religious ritual (even grace at meals). He won't enter a sanctuary of any kind if it can be avoided, and he attends life cycle events only under protest. We try to respect each other's beliefs and practices.

Science as Religion Atheists: These are the people who apply scientific principles to religion to argue that there is no God. As a trained research scientist, with a doctorate in biology, I consider this a violation of scientific principles. Science is a method of thought that requires objectivity; turning it into a belief system results in the loss of objectivity. Similarly, I believe religion has no place in the interpretation of scientific principles. Interestingly, these are the atheists that most get under my skin.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/tribu/sns-201205291330--tms--godsqudctngs-a20120531-20120531,0,1452601.story

[elleng]

1. And 'I'll believe it when I see it' athiests, A/K/A

AGNOSTICS!!!

[dmallind]

18. Not at all

a/k/a weak or implicit atheists really. Ahnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.

[cbayer]

2. I can see the value in some non-judgmental categories being established.

Just as there are different kinds of theists, there are different kinds of atheists. And then there is the whole issue of those that choose neither and wish to label themselves solely as agnostic.

[ret5hd]

3. Pfffft...

what do i as an atheist care how a religious leader wishes i label myself?

[longship]

4. Bullshista! Divide and conquer?

Non-belivers don't need a theist to tell us how we should arrange ourselves. We're entirely capable of fighting it out amongst ourselves.

Seriously, this is the precise kind of theist douche baggery which is almost guaranteed to piss off the secular community. Who in Sam Hell does he think he is? God herself?

Screw him and the high horse he rode in on.

(Can't wait to read PZ Myers on this one.)

[cbayer]

6. The question and distinctions were written by an atheist who

places herself in the first category. It is the answer that is by the rabbi.

There are already distinctions being made within the community. For example, deBotton is considered a certain kind of atheist that many don't relate to at all.

[longship]

15. Click through clarified it.

Sorry... Nevermind... (No Gilda Radner smiley)

But this coming from an atheist shows how some of us calling themselves atheists do get pissed off about these things. I see all non-believers as my brethren, no matter how they label themselves. This is the same way that I see the liberal religious. They are part of my brethren as well.

People label themselves and others to divide, which is generally bad. Yes, I call myself an atheist, but that is a strategic decision to separate me from a certain intolerant religiosity which would choose to separate people with non-belief in gods from everybody they see as normal (e.g.) Christians.

I use the atheist label like the LBGT community use their respective labels, to enlighten, not to discriminate. You don't generally see the various LBGT factions arguing amongst themselves. But put a group of non-believers in a room and there's going to be some sort of battle.

Should have clicked through on OP, although even then it's not clear who's who. Finally figured it out.

Thanks, cbayer. Do continue to keep me honest.

[cbayer]

26. You must not have spent much time in the LGBT group, lol!

Lots of squabbling at times, but they are generally a strong united front when they need to be.

Thanks for taking the time to look at this more closely and respond, longship. Whoever wrote it, I think it's an interesting concept and worth discussion.

[longship]

27. Herding the religious forums is like herding cats?

You guys do a good job here.

You ought to see the chair throwing at the atheist blogs...


That's why some of us are sensitive to these subjects, as the responses in this thread indicate.

[mr blur]

5. Atheism is Not a "belief system"

We reject your bullshit.

[qb]

7. Some people aren't happy unless they can put everything in its own cubbyhole.

I don't need to be defined by what I don't believe. I'm a human being. Others can define themselves by the deities they believe in, if they like.

[rug]

16. Taxonomy is a basic tool of science.

[johnnypneumatic]

8. what drivel. more atheist bashing

fuck you alleged "atheist" questioner, and you too rabbi gellman

[cbayer]

9. Again, the question and distinctions were written by a self-described atheist, not the rabbi.

[johnnypneumatic]

12. sorry you're right

I didn't read the whole thing, shame on me
I corrected it

[trotsky]

29. But the rabbi then tells the letter writer she is not an atheist.

So it's really just a muddled mess and unfortunately promotes some stupid stereotypes.

[rexcat]

35. Once someone categorizes..

they become judgmental.

[msongs]

10. the rabbi can't stand atheism not being segregated into cults like his religion lol nt

[cbayer]

11. I question whether anyone is really reading this.

[rug]

17. Lol. Now I know how Diogenes felt.

[OriginalGeek]

13. I'd have a problem with:

Observant Atheist in regards to prayer in school. There is currently no child in america who can't pray in school so it seems to me OA is saying it's OK for the state to hold and/or direct a prayer. I don't think it's OK for the state ever to direct any religious anything.

Classic Atheist as a label. What is classic? Atheism is only not believing in gods. Boorish behavior is boorish regardless of belief. That said, I also don't participate in grace and other prayer type things but I don't make a big assholey show about it. I mostly use the time to look around and see who else is looking and not bowing.

I don't think there are enough "science as religion" types to properly have it considered to be a group. There's nothing wrong with asking for verifiable, repeatable evidence of an extraordinary claim. That doesn't make it a religion.

So I guess the author of the article and I disagree.

[SoutherDem]

14. This would make Atheism a religion

Then our voices would be silenced by the 1st Amendment which clearly states the United States is a Christian Nation, it follows the one true god (ok there are 3 of them, counted as one) and our laws should be based only on the Holy Bible.

[backscatter712]

19. WOOHOO! TIME FOR A SCHISM!!!

Can we atheists accompany our schisms with wars, burnings-at-the-stake and exterminations like all the religious cool kids?

We wanna be just like you!

[dmallind]

20. Most people can't even wrap their heads around the REAL two that exist.

Since atheism is simply lack of belief in gods and nothing more the only two possible classifications already exist and are already too complex for most people to understand it seems - especially most believers.

Do you accept the non-existence of gods as an article of faith or simply withhold your belief in their existence until evidence is forthcoming? First bunch strong, second weak. That's all there is and can be as far as atheist types. How you behave at dinner parties and how much importance you place in ritual or science are decidedly irrelevant secondary criteria to the nature of atheism. It would be like basing Christian sects on what kind of jeans one wears and how much one likes asparagus.

[daaron]

21. This most accurately describes my understanding of atheism -->

as it was always explained to me a-growin' up (my Dad's a weak atheist). I appreciate the letter-writer's effort to help build understanding between believers and nons, but it does strike me as a bit of a moot point. Kinda like that one guy (usually a guy) we all know who has it all figured out if only he can get everyone on Earth to agree to his grand plan.

Just not going to happen. Not realistic. Doesn't mean her hearts not in the right place.

As for the Rabbi's reply -- not even worth responding to.

[Leontius]

28. Most believers understand atheism just find what we find hard to understand is

how it becomes morphed into anti-religious bigotry so easily and so acceptably.

[skepticscott]

31. If you understood the difference

between atheism and anti-theism, it might help. Educate yourself and get back to us.

[rug]

32. Oooh, a new category!

[skepticscott]

37. No, two different things

But don't feel bad for not comprehending. You have a lot of company.

[rug]

41. Do you know any antitheists who are not atheists?

[laconicsax]

46. Are all rectangles also squares?

[rug]

47. Thanks for proving the point.

[Humanist_Activist]

36. You definition of bigotry seems distinctly different from how most people use it. n/t

[Leontius]

40. Most bigots don't recognize their bigotry

for what it is. Your confirmation was not really needed, thanks anyway.

[Fumesucker]

45. For the most part atheists understand theists far better than theists understand atheists..

At least in the USA most atheists were raised in theist households and came to atheism through a journey of personal discovery, theists who were raised in an atheistic atmosphere are far less common.

Becoming anti-religious is often driven by being around theists a lot while not being part of their "club", the hypocrisy of theists is often overwhelmingly blatant and after a while the atheist who observes this comes to think that all theists are hypocrites.

It really doesn't help that in America at least theists are generally quite ignorant of the precepts of their faiths, for instance over half of US protestants cannot name Martin Luther as the person responsible for the protestant reformation.

[edcantor]

22. A "divide and conquer" strategy for religious believers!

How special! No one has ever tried that before, right?

[dimbear]

23. Great idea. Let's select a prominent atheist, and then some of us follow one distant relative

of his/hers and others follow a different distant relative.

We can do that for centuries, with fun for all.

[laconicsax]

24. Sounds like a plan.

[edcantor]

25. Let's try to split hairs for atheists, like religious believers do for..

themselves, over such inconsequential issues as which is the cogent argument, which is the most emotional pull, which is the most lifestyle-relevant issue.

Yeah, that works for so many religious believers, splitting hairs, let's do it for atheist folks, too!

Sounds pretty silly, but let's just do it anyway, like we do for us religious believers, ourselves.

[MineralMan]

30. If you assemble 100 atheists, you will have

100 denominations of atheism in the group. Atheism is pretty much an individual thing.

[edcantor]

34. But but but we have been told over and over by the best religious minds...

that we all have a secret desire to destroy all of humanity, and that we attempted to do so in Russia, and China and even in Germany..or or or... was that what motivated a few sociopathic folks who got into leadership and happened to be atheists like so many OTHER sociopaths in history who happened to believe in some supernatural being????

Never mind!

[Ninjaneer]

38. Another atheist with a holier than thou attitude towards other atheists,

*yawn*

Pass.

[laconicsax]

39. Hey! Haven't seen you around much.

[Ninjaneer]

42. Haha surprised you remember me,

a pleasant surprise : )

Yeah, had some stuff to handle, but back to life as usual now thankfully. How have things been?

[laconicsax]

43. Oh, can't complain any more than usual.

No doubt you've already noticed that nothing here has changed since you've been away. One or two new faces, but really the same old story.

[Ninjaneer]

44. Yeah...

Saw that in Religion. Going to stick to A&A for the most part this time around.