Religion
Related: About this forumChurch of England to allow women bishops
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9281336/Church-of-England-to-allow-women-bishops.htmlChurch of England bishops last night cleared the way for historic moves to allow women to become bishops but with a last-minute olive branch to traditionalists.
By John Bingham, Religious Affairs Editor7:00AM BST 22 May 2012
In a meeting behind closed doors in York, the Churchs House of Bishops gave its approval to legislation to admit women to the episcopacy and rejected a series of attempts to significantly water down the powers of future female bishops.
But they also agreed a key protection for conservative evangelicals and Anglo Catholics who object to women bishops on theological grounds.
In theory the vote clears the way for the churchs General Synod to have a final vote on the issue in July.
But there were signs it has plunged the Church into further uncertainty amid fears that the compromise failed to satisfy either side in the debate.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)going to treat women and men equally, but not quite actually. Well, at least they're making strides into the 20th century. When they make it all the way to real enlightenment and equality, maybe THAT will be news.
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,403 posts)From the sme jorunalist, a few hours later:
Campaigners for women in the episcopacy in the Church of England are considering whether to vote the plan down themselves, with some privately condemning it as a compromise too far.
Others say that the concession would give legal status to the view that women bishops would carry a taint".
Yet traditionalists also voiced disappointment at the measure, which they said falls far short of the assurances they say they need, and warned the Church is facing a terminal crisis.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9282853/Church-faces-crisis-over-tainted-women-bishops-plan.html
The Guardian points out an estimate that it is less than 3% of parishes that seem to object to women bishops:
...
Is the Church going to remain a discriminatory organisation, with a thinning theological figleaf to cover its vulnerability? Truth compels me to say, probably yes. In Brer Rabbit terms the old deal was that the buses were not segregated, and as long as the whites who believed in segregation on biblical grounds sat at the front, they could kid themselves that there weren't blacks at the back of the bus. This has now been modified. The driver can soon be black, and those who believe in Biblically based separate development can either stare out the window sideways or comfort themselves that they only have to look on the back of the driver's head. This scheme could well be a way to bring women bishops onshore from places like Oz, New Zealand, Canada, and the US. That's progress, I suppose. Intellectually, its not quite desegregation. But do not underestimate the power of evolution. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Evolution didnt work.
http://bishopalan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/swimmin-with-wimmin-part-94.html
An awful lot of trouble to accommodate a small bunch of reactionary bigots, whom the church would be better off without (because they'll be reactionary bigots on the subject of homosexuality, too).
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,212 posts)Although a lot of these rebels are from the 'global south', there are some British and American Anglicans involved, and unfortunately a few of them are rather too much in my backyard; e.g. Canon Chris Sugden from Oxford:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/religion.anglicanism
and worse from him:
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11769
cbayer
(146,218 posts)dimbear
(6,271 posts)How long history reaches.
Why Greensleeves?
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Whether that's true it not, it passed for true for centuries. Of course Henry's affairs are behind the English church.
Fitting song, a beautiful song, and a multipurpose song since it is also a hymn.
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)Long story short, it was almost certainly written after he had been dead for a while and it may have been written about a prostitute.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)It'd be similar to claiming that a disco song had been composed in the 60s or that what Marty McFly played during his parents' prom actually was composed at the time.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)edcantor
(325 posts)says it all.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)edcantor
(325 posts)paternalistic?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)But with women entering leadership positions, there is finally an opportunity for change.
edcantor
(325 posts)Does religion advocate for change very often? And does that change come from within the religion, or from outside? Does religion take a front row in advocating change, or does religion react to forces for change coming from outside of religion, change like egalitarian treatment of all people of both genders?
Or does an absence of religion, (secularism), advocate for change more often than religion does?
So the essential question, to any advocate for change, would have to be: why stick with religion if change, such as a change toward greater equality and justice for all, is what one favors? What does religion offer that a lack of religion, secularism, isn't already on-board with?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)There are also secular movements for change.
Both play important roles, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.
People aren't necessarily religious for quantifiable reasons. They just are. It's not a calculated decision for most people, it is just what they believe. For them, religion offers something that is not available in the secular world.
Why would it have to be one or the other? These are not mutually exclusive worlds, the religious and secular.
edcantor
(325 posts)"religion often advocates for and is even at the forefront of change"
My view of history is limited to a few books I have read as an adult, and a couple of college courses in history of religion, or general history of Western Europe.
I failed to see ANY examples of that assertion: "religion often advocates for and is even at the forefront of change".
The most history I probably studied over the years was American History, from pre-colonial times to the present day, (well, maybe up until Eisenhower and Kennedy, thereabouts). I didn't see religion as being at the forefront of the period of discovery and exploration, (indeed some religions predicted explorers would simply fall off the edge of the Earth) nor within the period of colonization, (when various religious efforts made claims to a certain territory for their own people, and letting in few if any others, with two exceptions in PA and RI), nor within the founding letters and papers of the Federalist period, (where there was explicit insistence upon no religious favoritism in any government), nor within the efforts to peacefully resolve that uniquely American enigma, slavery, without bloodshed, (indeed, many draft notices were filled with calls to do "God's work" of fighting for one side or the other).
I'm sure you don't need me to quote the literally dozens of Biblical references to the treatment of slaves, nor to the rights of some people to own slaves. I fail to see where religion has been out front about slavery, until, at least, there was a humanistic and secular movement toward abolishing one of the last institutions of ancient society here in America, decades or centuries after it had been abolished in most of the rest of the Western civilized world.
Perhaps treatment of gay folks has been ambiguous at best, from a religious viewpoint, in modern times, but the treatment of fellow human beings in the institution of slavery in America has to be the lowest, most despicable point of ancient religious influence upon the New World. Perhaps only a few thousand churches this Sunday preached against gay marriages, but that pales in comparison to the hundreds of years of acceptance of slavery, yes, even in the Northern American colonial times, all of which was never in dispute on Sunday mornings in the 1700's. Slavery was part of our nation, from the very start, and was (and is) enshrined in the careful evasive original wording of our nation's Constitution. Gay people today may not be free to marry in certain states, mostly because of present-day religious objections (while free to do so in other states, where religion's place in governance is not so paramount), but back then, slaves were given a religious blessing to be slaves, and religion required that the Founding Fathers spoke little, if at all, about the status of men and women of black skin who were NEVER free to move, to seek employment in a free market, for well over 150 years from the earliest days of our colonies. Well into the 1850's, Dred Scott was not free in certain places, while free in others. There seems to be a distinct lack of religious writings upon this obvious logical contradiction. Only Lincoln's "secular" Emancipation Proclamation addresses this "forefront of change".
Nor within the period of reconstruction, (a time wherein the concept of "manifest destiny" became enshrined within religious sermons, white over black, man over women, all in the name of Jesus). Nor within the efforts to gain suffrage for women, wherein a Bible once again was invoked as the reason to turn down an Amendment to the Constitution granting both genders equality at the ballot box. I saw more of a secular, more of a humanistic element in all of those change events. I seem to recall more advocacy NOT to change than to change as arguments coming from the religiously inclined. I could be wrong, I could have missed a lot of the literature, but what stands out is that literature filled with religious reference in favor of conservation of the customs, all emanating from those who stood steadfast AGAINST a change in the status quo.
Show me where I missed all that progressive religious effort, leading the way, over the last 500 years, where religion forged a new and egalitarian identity for us all, men and women, gay and straight, black and white, I must have been very poorly educated to have missed all that "forefront" activity by the religious leadership of our Western society! What I read from historical documents came mostly from the secular press, from the non-religious, from the political writers, not the thousands of preachers in each and every town and village. To be sure, there were exceptions, Jonathan Edwards stands out somewhat. But basically, change never originated within the churches on Sunday mornings, rather the churches seemed to react to the changes in the world around them, at least that is how I read American history, perhaps I am completely wrong.
In 1920, the United States "allowed" women to have an equal voice at the ballot box. Ninety two years later, the Church of England will "allow" women to hold a place equal to men in their church? Ninety-two years later! How is this church at the "forefront" of change?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Alcoholics Anonymous.
Higher education/university systems.
Underground railroad.
Art, architecture, music, literature
Child labor laws
Salvation Army
Orphanages
Halfway houses and other programs for homeless/mentally ill
International Missions
And that's just Christianity.