I recently encountered a devout fundamentalist: New experience for me, a clear atheist.

[lindysalsagal]

I don't cross paths with fundamentalists in my life, so, they're people I read about, or see on TV services.

Well, I got up close and personal with a fundie who I already knew, recently, and it was like knocking on an invisible door.

I'll call this person Chris, so as not to give away this person's gender. That's irrelevant. Chris is highly educated and capable and intelligent. Outside of religious debate, Chris is a critical thinker.

We were working together on something that was totally secular, and we really have a genuine fondness, ask about each other's kids, etc. We've known each other for years. We really get along well.

S/he kept on talking with me well after our work was done, which was curious, because s/he repeated hi/er confusion about society and today's kids, education, and many other subjects.

On the one hand, s/he kept bringing up where the family's choices, which are totally based on the fundamentalism, were giving hi/er a degree of inner conflict. S/he could have just left me at any time. Instead, knowing I'm not religious, s/he just kept talking and revealing these inner conflicts. But, s/he was venting, and using me as a sounding board, because s/he ignored any possible solutions to hi/er conflicts.

Had I the freedom to, I would have dismissed it all as 11th century gibberrish, and told hi/er the nonsense was the problem, and dropping it the solution. But my position in our sphere doesn't allow me that freedom.

The wierd thing was that while s/he kept engaging me, and being totally forth-coming and honest, s/he just refused to hear anything I said that didn't reinforce hi/er inner mental constructs, which were thick, intricate, intertwined and tangled. The defence of his/er compensations for hi/er insecurities was breath-taking, and impenetrable. It was like a very long string tied in a circle that started and ended with "God" and ran in and out of many knots, some of which were hi/er personal inner knots, and some were society.

But, the longer s/he talked, and ignored my logic, reason and rationality, the more I could trace everything back to an exquisite, fixed, hard, selfish narcissism. "Chris" had to constantly conceal how the motivations that all appeard to be in service of a belief in god were actually just manipulations of people, events and facts to bolster the choices Chris made for the most childish and selfish of reasons: The attempt to relieve hi/er feelings of insecurity.

Chris was an adult child, just as confused and unfocused as a child, unable or unwilling to see clearly, and unable to make sense of anything. My take: Fundamentalism is eternal childhood, but it's not comfortable, as it is billed: Chris was clearly in distress, but was desperately searching for the source of the distress, since s/he has internalized that s/he's already doing everything "right" and so
therefore should be blissfully enjoying the loving embrace and rewards of "god's" instructions. Chris was smack dab in the midst of cognitive dissonance, a condition the church promises to relieve the true believer of. How ironic.

The only thing I was sure of was that "Chris" clearly couldn't help unloading on me specifically because I am not a member of hi/er church, and ideology, but I'm also not someone s/he can dismiss as evil, corrupt or satanic. Chris trusts me completely, and so can't figure out why I'm not in the "in" group or the 'out" group. I'm not on their map at all.

The fundamentalists who churn out Chris' ideology apparently haven't counted on me, the very compassionate atheist, being someone Chris trusts. Their black and white simplistic world view leaves me out. I feel like the mysterious, surprise agent who appears 3/4 of the way through the movie to save civilization!

And I couldn't be happier. I can't help thinking that this was a cry for help from someone trapped in a cult, unable to find the door.

Because of the nature of my function in our town, I cannot dare challenge Chris' devotion to the fundamentalism. But I found that as I was walking away to leave, Chris could have kept on talking for hours. It only ended because I left in the middle of it, with nothing concluded. So strange.

How could someone need me so much, and yet hear so little of what I was saying?

[Ferrets are Cool]

1. Well written. Thanks for posting.

[SWBTATTReg]

2. Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe 'Chris' in some way is questioning their faith in a way...

It's a good, not that I'm advocating rejection or anything the like, but I think any serious philosophy should welcome w/ open arms any discussions, both Pro and Con. Showing both sides of the coin in an honest way is, I think, how one should interact w/ their fellow human beings. Just saying...

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

3. How could someone need you so much an yet hear so little of what you were saying?

People in fundamentalist churches have been taught their entire lives not to think for themselves, to accept the authority of their church unquestioningly. So when someone like Chris comes along with a genuine conflict about what to do, they have absolutely no way of thinking through the problem and coming to a reasonable solution. As you described.

Which is why so many fundamentalists utterly fear secular people, especially atheists. They know we aren't bound by devotion to authority, and that frightens them because they have no way to control us.

There's a slight possibility you could get Chris to take some baby steps, just look at one small part of the problem. Clearly you aren't going to suggest Chris move way from his/her church, but it does sound as if he/she can't find anyway to resolve the contradictions that are tying him/her in knots.

[lindysalsagal]

5. Agreed. I also think the religious confusion is a distraction from the profound insecurity.

Were the dogma to be resolved and removed, Chris would have to face the decisions and motivations that clearly stem from unresolved emotional problems, most likely established in childhood.

In my experience, people will do just about anything to avoid facing up to childhood pain. Religion is one of the more benign options for distraction and substitute blame. It also has the added benefit of the group validation and society's sanction.

Others choose drugs, sex, gambling, but this family knows those are not approved-of. Those are the shameful distractions.

In that light, I was just someone to carry some of her unexamined pain. Maybe she goes around doing this with everyone. Who knows?

[luvtheGWN]

14. Yes, it might be profound insecurity, but

religion, while it is presumed to provide some element of comfort emotionally, frequently doesn't. The ancient Greeks and Romans -- in an effort to explain why fundamental things such as thunder, tsunamis and other such unexplainable happenings occurred -- found comfort in blaming one or more of their self-constructed "gods". But not just to reverently blame, but also to reverently FEAR. And fear (IMHO) is really what most religions promote. Christian fundamentalism is an extreme example, but so very effective in preventing "believers" from withdrawing. If they have doubts, their religion draws them back into the fold. They might say to themselves "Is there really a God? But if there is, and I reject Him, then I'll go straight to hell".

Simple, isn't it? Well yes, it's simple for those of us who, while brought up in religious homes, started having doubts, started reading and studying up on world religions, and finally concluded that since they are all human constructs, mostly to exercise control, then we're perfectly safe in becoming non-theists. We have nothing to fear, except from humans.

Just my own personal take on this.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. Chris is very lucky indeed to have you to vent to.

Whether s/he ever listens to what you might have to say, s/he knows you can be relied on.

That is your gift.

[lindysalsagal]

6. Chris is also a trumper, or was in 2016. Maybe that's part of the confusion.

If I unloaded my feelings about 45, I would not be seen as gifted....

[Merlot]

7. Sometimes people listen to themselves talk and are able to resolve an issue

the act of hearing themselves sound it out is helpful. However, at a certain point, some people will take for granted the listener and use them as a form of "free" therapy. OP said they left half way though a "conversation" that could have gone on for hours and leaving was the right thing to do. Otherwise you end up enabling the person to NOT make any changes or come to resolution. They take the relief from getting something off their chest to mean that the issue is over, when in fact, it's only a temporarty solution.

[Brainstormy]

8. the important thing

is that you continue to listen, and are not judgmental. Letting go of the dogma is a process. Clearly Chris is somewhere in that process. He's lucky to have you, and I hope I don't offend by saying that there's a lot for you to learn in this process, too.

[keithbvadu2]

9. Maybe not talking with you but 'at' you to convince (h)self.

[lunatica]

10. Chris cant have this crisis with other fundamentalists

because they fear this questioning more than anything else. Right now you’re the only safe person to talk to because you don’t believe in god, you are non judgmental and you will hear her. She is questioning her indoctrination which she confuses with faith. She needs to work her way through a lot of crap before she can find what she believes in. If that turns out to be only a belief in something higher than humanity or in a belief in no god can only be answered by her.

I would say you did very well helping another through an internal crisis. Because your belief is not something someone gave you. You arrived to it all by yourself. It’s all completely subjective.

[ancianita]

11. She heard. She needs to save herself, to figure out how to live free of validation and a system

she's trapped in. OR ...

Maybe she's doing what religionists call "mission work" to save a "lost soul." Personalizing as a form of what is actually proselytizing.

My church-going mother-in-law called me a "lost soul" once. The "lost soul" is a thing across Christianity and other religions, whether the believer is moderate or fundamentalist.

[Leith]

12. Here's a Video That May Help

I haven't watched the whole thing (it's 40 minutes), but after seeing a clip of Matt talking to a woman whose sister had committed suicide 20 years earlier after they had a nasty argument, and the comfort he offered to her without resorting to giving lip service to her deeply held religious beliefs, I feel confident that he can give valuable insight into how religious people think and react as well as how atheists can best communicate with them meaningfully.*

Matt Dillahunty was a Southern Baptist until he was in his late 20s. He was doing preliminary studies for his plan to enter seminary and work toward becoming a minister. It was then that he realized that what he was studying just didn't make sense and wasn't logical to him. After the usual self reflection and struggle, he admitted that he was an atheist. As such, he understands both sides to the religious/atheist "debate" because he has been on both sides and he has an incredible gift of being able to communicate.

* Unfortunately, I have not been able to find that particular clip again.

[Ligyron]

22. Mat and the Atheist Experience show are excellent!

He and Tracy are great together but most shows are good. Love when the theists call in! Hilarious1

[Leith]

25. My Favorite Part

is when Jeff Dees goes off on a righteous rant. "How dare you?!"

[Pobeka]

13. She recognizes an emotional stability in you s/he doesn't have, and would like to have.

Most people can see if someone has their act together better than themselves, and the more the disparity the more the envy. Sometimes envy can be a good thing.

I think you were "confided in", if I may use the term, because you represent an aspect of humanity (un-conflicted belief system) that Chris wishes s/he could have, but either doesn't know how to articulate, recognize a path to, or is allowed to find a path to.

Chris is lucky to have you around, maybe s/he he can eventually crawl out of the pit of emotional confusion s/he's in, and having you around provides an example of where s/he would really like to be, regardless of religious belief.

[lindysalsagal]

26. I do happen to be very stable, and I think you're right: S/he's drawn to that.

But Chris was in no way questioning the church: That may never happen. It's the outside world s/he found confounding because it's not all halos and perfection as they promise.

Quite the contrary: I think this person could close off more and more from reality. I was surprised to find hi/er far more disconnected than I assumed.

[RandomAccess]

15. A conversation like this needs more concreteness

rather than mere abstractions for me to find any real meaning in it.

Can you provide some examples of the conflict s/he's experiencing? Because it just makes no real sense to me without some understanding of that.

[cilla4progress]

29. Exactly what Im

Thinking. Examples?

[hatrack]

16. No God, Know Peace. Know God, No Peace.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. Interesting analysis. I partly agree only because I'm aware of a number of other psychological

... factors involved in the psyche of RW Authoritarian Followers and submissive christians. But it is consistent with those factors and is another perspective with which to consider the psychological complex.

Look up the research on RWAF, especially Altemeyer's. Follow this link through to

Daily KOS: Right wing Authoritarianism and Conservative Identity Politics (Pt 3 in the series):
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8065442

Right Wing Authoritarian Followers:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7680127

Most of conservative base is Authoritarian Follower, fearful, & seeks affirmation, not reality:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1352909

[paleotn]

18. I think the operative words here are cognitive dissonance.....

They're taught to ignore those feelings as the whisperings of satan. I don't know either of you, but maybe, as you stated, you're a part of this person's struggle with cognitive dissonance. In their minds, how could you possibly be a happy, non-judgemental, well adjusted adult and not part of their religion...or any religion....and yet, you're not evil, horns, pitchfork and all, casting evil spells and eating live kittens and the like.

I was raised in the faith, but left due to the same struggles with theology that made absolutely no sense in the light of reality. Coming to that realization took time. It may be the same with this individual. It's tough. Their whole world view, family and social ties are built on that foundation. Eventually, some don't really believe anymore, but still go through the motions due to familiarity and to maintain those social ties. Some, like me, just go cold turkey and chuck it altogether. Being sort of a last born, black sheep and not really a people person made that easier for me. For others, fear of losing those relationships is what keeps them in the fold. For myself, it was kind of like unraveling an old sweater. The more I pull at those loose threads, the more threads there were to pull and eventually the whole damn thing came apart, which for me was an incredible release and sense of freedom. Others may view it totally differently.

I commend you for being a non-judgemental sounding board. You may be just what this person needs to finally make some sense of things and discover there's a bright, shiny world out there beyond their theological clap trap.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. Yup. Cognitive dissonance is the way in. Point out their dissonance and WAIT for the questions.

Important for them to ask the questions and then and only then do you give the answers delivered straight and even-handedly in a calm reassuring voice. That is the only way they will be listening and receptive.

Highly effective are brief answers that they know or sense are true but lead to more questions that they ask. It is the question asking that opens up their minds.

Reassure the person that they are finding a clearer way of seeing things and they don't have to be fearful because there are people to support them on their journey.

Simply making your points first throws them into defensive mode where they are armed with the standard arguments they have learned from their elders and peers: mostly logical fallacies or debating tricks like gish gallop.

[lindysalsagal]

28. I'm glad you're out here with the rest of humanity. I hear your story often from

ex-catholics. LOTS of ex-catholics out there.

And I'm definitely not non-judgemental: Chris is hurting others with this selfishness and I wish I was in a position to stop it. It's not illegal, but it's wrong, in my eyes. And it's all to ameliorate Chris's insecurities. It all makes me sick, but I'm not allowed to voice that. I did question some of the decisions and I was ignored. So, I'm done.

I strongly suspect this selective deafness and blindness will backfire on Chris, but I won't hear about that. Chris is too delusional to notice or admit it.

[KT2000]

20. He/She cannot express doubt

to anyone else in their life.
My neighbor, also a fundie, was out of town and asked me to look for some paperwork in his desk to send him. On top of the pile of papers were pages of his notes where he was trying to reconcile contradictions he found in his religion with his "intellect." I did not read it because it made me sick that otherwise intelligent people are torturing themselves with religion - especially the hardcore kind that includes harsh punishments.
People like to say that religion offers peace and comfort but often it does the opposite.

[Maraya1969]

21. My white evangelical sibling was here for several days as we are trying to find a decent place

for our mom to live as she has come to a point where she needs a lot of help now.

Anyway, we went to eat on Fri and for some reason I told him about those studies that find a correlation between low IQ and racism. I was not accusing him of being a racist, it was just something I thought might add to the conversation.

Well that man jumped out of his skin! He was trying to say how the studies were wrong and blah blah blah. I couldn't believe how visceral his reaction was. He did not want that to be true.

I don't remember him being a racist but who knows with this guy anymore. He was a homophobe and in his job as a Presbyterian minister he, at least encouraged gay people to go to conversion therapy.

I considered that a little different than racism but maybe not.

I also remembered him telling me that his wife's family from NC believed the civil war was about state's rights.

I guess I never thought he would really go down that road because we were raised to not be racists. Maybe Whit Evangelicals are racists and he picked it up from them. If so that is just one more big reason why I think this religion is downright dangerous.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. Bigotry & prejudice are the broader terms that cover it. Racism is a subset contained within those.

[keithbvadu2]

24. "about state's rights" - the right to conduct the slave trade

[Maraya1969]

27. Yes. That's about right

[Freelancer]

30. Wow. You express yourself beautifully. My take...

I had a neighbor that did something similar to your Chris with me over the years. He was a Seventh Day Adventist. I'm an atheist-adjacent agnostic (pang of capitalization envy there). Eventually, I figured out that he used me as a reverse barometer. Anything I said had to be wrong, so he just did the opposite and felt confident that he had made the "Godly" choice.

IMO, the only compassionate thing to be done for a person as deeply enmeshed as your "Chris" is to just turn them around and tell him to trot back into the heart of their religion. People like that are just like those watermelons in the YouTube videos with 20 rubber bands around the middle. Trying to subtract bands to relieve the pressure on them is tempting, but the odds of a good outcome, for them or for you, are just terrible.

Better to just deflect, if they come back wanting a heart-to-heart. Agrarian parables are always good. Something on the order of: "Like my granny used to say -- always draw milk from both sides of the cow, or else she'll be lopsided." or "Love goes where it's sent -- even up a yellow dog's butt" (yes, that was a real saying). Or, "When on a date, remember to take out your pipe before you spit." (Explains why grandpa had so many kids).

Religiosos eat that stuff up. The more nonsensical and gritty the better.