Maybe It's Time To Admit That The 'GROTESQUE CARICATURE' Of White Evangelicals Is The Reality

[Soph0571]

This is because, at the end of the day, evangelicalism isn’t really about personal values but, rather, social and political conversion and control. Little has changed, in this sense, since the days of Jerry Falwell and his Moral Majority (as Daniel Schultz rightly pointed out recently on RD).

The Trump era, then, does not create a new problem for evangelicals and their image; it’s simply casting a very bright light on what has always been there, at least for the past forty years or so.

If evangelical support for Trump sounds more calculated than sincere because of this, that’s because it is. But while critics charge evangelicals with hypocrisy, with undercutting their own assumed moral authority for the sake of political success, it’s important to emphasize, that this more pragmatic approach to social change isn’t completely outside their own religious traditions, and it’s questionable the extent to which evangelicals ever held much moral authority in the first place.

[link:http://religiondispatches.org/maybe-its-time-to-admit-that-the-grotesque-caricature-of-white-evangelicals-is-the-reality/|

It is not a perception problem it is a hate problem.....

[barbtries]

1. that's always been clear to me.

their campaigns have always been about picking a target and going after it. not an uplifting experience at all.

[lunatica]

2. Theyre so power hungry that they downright salivate

Male dominated, misogynistic and homophobic, or as they like to put it, they follow the loving teachings of Chist.

[ollie10]

22. The real world

"May the church be the place of God’s mercy and love, where everyone can feel themselves welcomed, loved, forgiven and encouraged to live according to the good life of the Gospel. And in order to make others feel welcomed, loved, forgiven and encouraged, the church must have open doors so that all might enter. And we must go out of those doors and proclaim the Gospel.”

—Pope Francis continuing a series of meditations on the church June 12

My church has a mission statement where people of all beliefs, all sexual orientations. all races, all sexes, all nationalities, all walks of life are welcome. One of the social groups is LGBT. This inclusiveness is one of the reasons I was drawn to this church.

I recognize that not all churches are so inclusive.

Just to say that not all churches are male dominated, misogynistic or homophobic.

Now the thought police will on cue attack me for my heresy. But I don't care. If you don't want to recognize reality, and you want to live in that fairy tale world where all Christians are male dominated, misogynistic and homophobic.....well go ahead, I guess it works for you to believe this.

[Mariana]

23. Did you read the OP at all?

This thread is very specifically about white evangelicals. It isn't about "all Christians" and it certainly isn't about "ollie10".

[ollie10]

25. Yes I did and it was a good OP

Of course you don't like me, so you want to make this personal.

What I was trying to do was, not to contradict anyone, but simply to clarify and expand the discussion.

Apparently you don't want the discussion to include certain ideas.

[Mariana]

26. You know, very few people here are so stupid

that they'll read "white evangelicals" and interpret that to mean "all Christians" or "ollie10".

You attacked Lunatica for no good reason. You said to her, "If you don't want to recognize reality, and you want to live in that fairy tale world where all Christians are male dominated, misogynistic and homophobic.....well go ahead, I guess it works for you to believe this." She was clearly talking about the white evangelicals described in the OP. She wasn't talking about you.

[ollie10]

29. no, I was not talking about the OP I was talking about the tought police.....

You left out part of the context.....I said....in the same paragraph......"Now the thought police will on cue attack me for my heresy"

I see you saw your cue!

Isn't calling someone stupid against the terms of service of this board?

Apology? I won't expect that. But maybe you could at least follow the rules.

[Mariana]

32. It's a good thing I didn't call anyone stupid, isn't it? nt.

[ollie10]

34. So you are going to deny that was your intent? Really?

I see no purpose in continuing this discussion if you cannot be civil.

[Mariana]

35. Fortunately, DU has an ignore function. nt.

[ollie10]

36. DU also has rules that prohibit flaming, personal attacks and such

As I said, I see no point in continuing our discussion if you cannot follow the rules of DU and of civility

[Mariana]

42. I attacked no one, Ollie.

On the other hand, you attacked Lunatica gratuitously, saying in your reply to her, "If you don't want to recognize reality, and you want to live in that fairy tale world where all Christians are male dominated, misogynistic and homophobic.....well go ahead, I guess it works for you to believe this."

[ollie10]

45. again...you are taking me out of context to distort what I had to say....

"May the church be the place of God’s mercy and love, where everyone can feel themselves welcomed, loved, forgiven and encouraged to live according to the good life of the Gospel. And in order to make others feel welcomed, loved, forgiven and encouraged, the church must have open doors so that all might enter. And we must go out of those doors and proclaim the Gospel.”

—Pope Francis continuing a series of meditations on the church June 12

My church has a mission statement where people of all beliefs, all sexual orientations. all races, all sexes, all nationalities, all walks of life are welcome. One of the social groups is LGBT. This inclusiveness is one of the reasons I was drawn to this church.

I recognize that not all churches are so inclusive.

Just to say that not all churches are male dominated, misogynistic or homophobic.

Now the thought police will on cue attack me for my heresy. But I don't care. If you don't want to recognize reality, and you want to live in that fairy tale world where all Christians are male dominated, misogynistic and homophobic.....well go ahead, I guess it works for you to believe this.

====

I think it should be clear that what I was talking about in the last paragraph was not Lunatica, but the "thought police" that I predicted was going to object to what I had to say. On cue, you fulfillled my prediction.

I don't care how many times you try to deny you were calling me stupid.

As I tried to say before, I don't think there is much point in continuing our conversation. So let's please end it, ok?

[Mariana]

46. Use the ignore function if you don't want to read my posts.

I'm not going to stop posting just because you want me to. Fortunately for me, you don't have the power to force me to shut up. We know from history how it goes when Christians do have that power.

[ollie10]

47. I am not going to respond to you.

Have at it. But I won't respond again. I don't understand why you would want to continue a conversation against the will of the person you are talking to.....but then again, that is what you seem to be doing. Bye.

[Mariana]

49. On DU, it is impossible

to have a conversation with a poster against that poster's will. It simply cannot be done. If a conversation is taking place here, it is with the consent of all parties involved.

And we've had this particular conversation before. You know perfectly well the situation is entirely under your control.

[guillaumeb]

85. The 11th Commandment is very strong in some.

[quartz007]

107. I was born in a Hindu family

and I am still a Hindu in my 70's. I have known a lot of Christians, having lived in the States for 5 decades. Most are/were very fine people. I married one of them! But I avoid the evangelical types since they are always proselytizing. It does not mean they are bad people, but it does get very annoying.

[Mariana]

110. There's a falsehood being promulgated in this group

that some posters are saying all Christians are bad. It's a lie, no one says that or even implies it.

Most of my friends are Christian, and none has ever tried to convert me. They would not be my friends if they did so. I don't think any of them even knows I am atheist, because where I live, it's still considered impolite to question people about their religious beliefs, so they have never asked me! It simply isn't relevant.

[ollie10]

115. On this same thread....

Knowing the bible

as I do, there are passages somewhere, just look up christians being laughed/persecuted in these modern times in the concordance, for their beliefs. What was left out of those passages is white racist denominations full of hateful racists christians DESERVE to be laughed at for their following a white christian god and racist fucking preachers of religious denominations that approved of slavery in enough passages of that book that white ameriKKKan christians could use those passages to forcibly enslave millions. And when the law forbade them slaves, could use the bible to lynch, mutilate, burn and all the way up to this very day, HATE all nonwhite americans, men, women and children, AA's predominantly even if they believed as the white christian believed. Praise god and to HELL with white ameriKKKan christianity. PERIOD


Obviously, mariana, this is a respectful post. No one implies that Christians are bad, or deserving to be laughed at.....

Blind spot, much, mariana?

[Mariana]

118. You're not making any sense, Ollie.

Will you rewrite that post so it is coherent, please?

[ollie10]

119. I was quoting another poster

on the same thread.

I think he had a low opinion of Christians.....

[Mariana]

121. All right, I went and read that poster's entries on this thread.

He clearly hates Christianity as an ideology, which is quite understandable the way it has been used to oppress him and so many others. He also hates white racist Christians, again with good reason. But nowhere does he say or imply that all Christians are bad. You're slandering the victim here.

[ollie10]

122. So when he said period he was talking about a measure of time?

[Mariana]

123. "...to HELL with white ameriKKKan christianity. PERIOD."

You have a problem with this sentiment?

[ollie10]

124. Well, there are several things I find a bit harsh

Period.

I have never seen a KKK member go to any church I have been to. Neither does any of the major denominations today support racism.

If he is opposed to racism, I agree. As I have posted in another post, I believe racism to be blasphemous (as well as morally wrong).

It would be difficult for an objective christian to read that post and not take that as an attack.

[Mariana]

125. "... a bit harsh."

Are you taking back your slanderous assertion that the poster said or implied that all Christians are bad?

[ollie10]

126. I think the implication is pretty clear

[Mariana]

127. So you're standing by your attack on this poster?

Before you do that, you might want to reread his posts one more time, keeping in mind that Christianity is an ideology and Christians are people. The words Christianity and Christian are not synonyms and they aren't interchangeable.

[ollie10]

128. Have a nice day

Ideology: a system of ideas and ideals, especially one that forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.

Last I heard, Christianity is a religion!

I you attack someone's religion, imply it is white racist kkk etc most people would consider that attack on themselves.

Tell you what. Go to a christian church and tell people you see what you read....and report back on their reactions!

Words have implications. There is a clear implication that the christian church is filled with racists, kkk members, and the like.

One of the problems with that idea is today people of color are more likely to be Christians than whites are.

Isn't it possible for people to talk about religion without using harsh words, including the F word?

Well....have a nice day mariana. Be nice to the Christians you know in real life.

[Mariana]

129. Actually, most of my friends are Christians.

Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2018, 03:38 PM - Edit history (1)

They know perfectly well that there are a lot of really awful Christians out there, and don't freak out when someone says so. They don't run around looking for reasons to be offended, and they certainly don't make up lies about what other people have said. If someone speaks against, say, white racist Christians who are KKK members, they don't instantly jump to the conclusion that the person is talking about them. Why do you jump to that conclusion?

Even if someone did say all Christians are bad, which they haven't, so what? Why would that bother you so? Honestly, when you ignore what Jesus said to do, it makes me doubt that you believe any of it at all. If you did, would you really do the very opposite of what Jesus said to do, over and over and over again? You're not even trying to obey him.

[ollie10]

132. So here we have a professed atheist claiming to judge someone!

You cannot come to grips with the fact that many people on this board have attacked religion period, christianity period and have mocked Christians, period....even called them followers of unicorns. I guess you live in denial. Fine. But it is very noticeable to someone not so wrapped up.

As I asked you before, you have a choice to be respectful or not to be respectful. And you have obviously chosen the path that is consistent with you.

Nothing is bothering me. Again, you give yourself WAY WAY too much credit. As you have said, this is just a small chat group on the internet. Right?

You have no right to judge my beliefs, btw. I also had to chuckle that you reached into the "some of my best friends are...." excuse. Like, wow!

As I said yesterday, I see no point in continuing. I will not respond to any of your blathering today, tomorrow or in the future. It isn't worth the time. I have kept on trying to hope against hope that you would start being respectful. I give up. Bye.

[CrispyQ]

40. The very basis of all three Abrahamic religions is misogynistic.

God created man in His image. God the Father. God the Son. Where is God the woman? We're second class. No deity status for us! Face it, man created God to control woman. They even co-opted the birth process & crafted woman from one of man's ribs.

More churches should be like yours, but I think humanity would be better off without religion.

[Mariana]

44. Some Christians like to claim the Holy Spirit

is the "female" part of the trinity, but that can't possibly be true. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. Clearly it is male.

[CrispyQ]

51. Yeah, the pastor tried to tell me that back when I was going through Confirmation.

The budding feminist that I was back then, didn't buy it, either.

[vlyons]

80. No one has ever been impregnated by a spirit

Such ideas are silly. Just like the idea of Jesus violating the laws of gravity and ascending up to heaven, of Mohammed riding up to heaven on a horse, or Jesus rising from death are all very silly ideas. If Evangelicals could restart the Inquisition, they most certainly would. Thank goodness I'm a Buddhist - a practice in which I am encouraged to question everything.

[Mariana]

82. I'm an atheist.

The Bible's a work of fiction, as far as I'm concerned. However, the worshipers of the characters therein are very real indeed.

[ollie10]

48. Mary, Mother of God.....

Ever hear of that?

[CrispyQ]

50. I don't recall ever hearing that she was anything other than human.

[ollie10]

54. Mary is quite revered....

....considered the highest of saints, for one.

I know.....the idea that the Bible is totally misogynistic and that women are not revered or important.... some would disagree with that.

[marylandblue]

56. The Catholic tradition elevates her to semi-divine status

Theologically, she is still human, but if you are inclined to venerate female figures, Mary provides the option. But merely having a female to pray to has nothing to with everyday misogyny. The Romans had plenty of goddesses but they still viewed women as property of their husbands.

[CrispyQ]

91. Religion didn't invent misogyny. It was created to normalize & perpetuate it.

So happy Mary gets semi-divine status.

[Mariana]

52. Jesus was rude to Mary throughout the gospels.

At no time is he even shown as speaking politely to her, much less as being loving and respectful. He gets points for consistency, at least, because this jibes with his teaching that his disciples are to hate their families.

[ollie10]

55. no comment

[Voltaire2]

62. So are you denying that the Christian religion

is a patriarchal religion?

[ollie10]

63. Depends on what form of Christianity you are talking about.....

there are hundreds if not thousands.

Some are patriarchal. Others not.

Ok, now that this is settled....next?

[Voltaire2]

73. No it is not settled.

Other than outliers like Unitarians, Christianity is not only a patriarchal religion, it is, along with the other abrahamic religions, a defining example of a patriarchal religion.

The deity is male. “God the father”.

[Mariana]

78. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all male.

There is no female representation whatsoever in the Godhead.

[Voltaire2]

84. But somebody threw a Hail Mary.

[Mariana]

87. ...

[heaven05]

112. Christianity

Is racist, sexist, male dominated and created BULLSHIT used as a tool to perpetuate white male supremacy. When are you going to look at reality of how it has been used to burn women at the stake, AmeriKKKa used it, Europeans used it, remember Joan of Arc? It was used as a tool of the Inquisition to murder thousands, more than likely millions worldwide. Christianity has spread HATE of all not Christian, male and white. Worldwide. Period. Lynching, mutilation, burnings, extreme torture of men, women and children. THAT'S REALITY ON THIS FUCKED UP LITTLE BALL OF DIRT!!!!

[ollie10]

113. Are you having a bad day?

[heaven05]

114. how did you guess

sorry. I don't like religion. Period. It been used hatefully since it was created. It's a control tool of usually nefarious people. Lot's of wicked, wicked pain as an after effect of chemotherapy and radiation for cancer. So yeah, the day sucks, yet everything thing I feel about religion comes from personal experience with american religion and religionists. Nothing personal, just the facts as I have seen them.

[ollie10]

116. I'm sorry to hear of your pain. Hang in there

[jberryhill]

75. One will not hear that in most Protestant denominations

And definitely not among Evangelicals.

[ollie10]

79. Christianity is not monolythic....

It is tempting to think of it that way, but not accurate.

[jberryhill]

89. No one said it was

That is why I can't understand why you seem to think ELCA is, for one thing.

As you are likely aware Protestants in general, and Evangelicals in particular, avoid the "Mary mother of God" thing, as it smacks of what they consider to be Catholic "idolatry", "saint worship", etc..

One does not have to believe that anything is "monolithic" in order to characterize what is the overwhelming norm within defined categories.

The word "most" has a meaning. It does not mean "all". The word "most" signals that there are indeed minor exceptions.

[ollie10]

95. To be historically accurate you should avoid making over-generalizations

Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2018, 08:28 AM - Edit history (4)

The tone of the anti-religion folks is that they want to attack Christianity. The easiest way to do that is to construct a fictional idea of what Christianity is....and this starts with the idea of Christians all being the same (or "most&quot . Then they tend to come up with historically inaccurate constructs (such as religion causes most wars--not true. religion causes most genocide---not true. The old standby, religion supports slavery, misogyny and for that matter has caused every ailment known to man from athelete's foot to flat beer.)

I find it, as a former history teacher, very interesting and revealing how it works out that when you start with a prejudice against religion, how it affects your view of history. And it is a prejudice. How would we react if someone with a racial prejudice talked about blacks (no qualifier) like to eat fried chicken, they love watermelon, drive cadilacs and the women are welfare cheats. Then, when confronted, saying something like not all are that way but most..... I think they would be laughed off DU for such nonsense. Yet we can say that Christians are misogynists, racists, supporters of slavery, gay bashers and etc.....when we should know full well that many/most Christians are not.

Take 911. What caused it? Was it religion (Islam)? Some folks, now Trumpers, hate immigrants and muslims particularly and they would gladly say 911 was caused by religion. Others of us would recognize that Islam does not teach terrorism, and that the terrorists were extremists/fanatics and the fanaticism is more to blame than the religion. Or economic/territorial issues.

People who bash Christianity or religion in general are thinking in a similar way as the Trumpers. Sad to say.

I have many disagreements with the dominionists and those evangeiicals who support Trump and seem to be on the other side of every issue from me. i would love to discuss my frustrations with them. However, when people over-generalize and talk about religion in general.....which means they are also talking about people like me who are the opposite of the evangelicals with regard to pollitical or religious views.....it bristles my back.

A little advice....if you want the support of liberal Christians don't treat all Christians as if they are Jerry Fallwells.

Conversely, if you want to help the Trumpers and the Jerry Fallwell types....then by all means attack Christianity. The Christian right has been trying to say Democrats are anti-religion for a long time. Hasn't been true, but they try to paint it that way. So if you really want to help the Fallwells and Franklin Grahams of this world, say you are a Democrat and you hate religion.

[Mariana]

81. I wouldn't think so.

I'm surprised anyone tries to say the Holy Spirit is female. If there's one story in the Bible that gets read by Christians more than any other, it's the Christmas story, which includes the Holy Spirit impregnating Mary.

[heaven05]

109. I am just amazed at how many americans

Who call themselves Christians, ALL DENOMINATIONS, are racist, sexist, vicious and mean because they believe the bible has told them it is okay to hate all non-white people. He'll these type people even hate non-white Christians. I have proof.

[ollie10]

111. Lots of Americans are racist and sexist....religious or not

It makes little sense for a Christian to be racist. God created people.....and if you hate blacks, you are hating god's creation.....hence it is rather blasphemous to be racist if you think about it. Besides, Jesus taught love, didn't teach us to hate each other.

I think part of the problem is that people tend to create God in their own image, rather than the other way around. So if they are a mean spirited racist yuck of a person, their religion will reflect that. If they are loving, their religion will be too.

[TheMastersNemesis]

3. Evangelical Movement Not Religious But Is Political To Take Over US. Establish Theocracy.

The goal is a theocratic dictatorship. Replace Constitution & Bill of Rights With Bible & Ten Commandments.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

10. But the elephant in the room is...

that theocracy pairs up perfectly with plutocracy. In reality, it's the plutocrats that are leading the theocrats around by the nose, and using them as props.

This became blatantly obvious to anyone raised in the old-time Christian churches, once we heard about their invention of the prosperity gospel.

...........

[Major Nikon]

17. I think the relationship is mutually beneficial

Since the birth of this nation and well before, theocrats have always been trying to worm their way into politics. What prevented the marriage with plutocracy was at least the illusion of favoring the sick and poor over the wealthy. The Civil Rights era and the Southern Strategy was the blind date that resulted in their long lasting relationship. Goldwater warned against it, but those who favored power over principle didn't want to hear it.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

19. Thanks, good points.

Also, we had two world wars and the Great Depression - all three of which injected our society with massive doses of humility for short periods of time (my parents lived through all three to some degree). That makes me wonder what it will take this time to bring about a moral reset.

One reason this turn of events is so shocking to me is that the Protestant churches in the South of the 50s and 60s I was exposed to did not show the slightest inkling of interest in any union with politics.

[edhopper]

16. If the basis of their movement is the Bible

then it IS RELIGIOUS! They want power to force their religion on everyone.
It is not a political movement at it's core, but a religious one.
We cannot excuse religion here. Or give it a backseat in this.

[Lordquinton]

21. How can they be not religious, but want to set up a theocracy?

You kinda need to have religion for a theocracy.

[Ferrets are Cool]

31. But, but, but....

all they want is to save you from eternal damnation.


My internal sarcasm meter almost broke while typing that.

[Mariana]

24. They are indeed religious.

They are also political. Why do you think they can't be both at the same time?

[Act_of_Reparation]

27. A non-religious theocracy, you say?

Did you go to Upstairs Hollywood Political Science University, too?

[ollie10]

28. I think you are talking about a subset among evangelicals.

There are evangelical churches that are not part of the dominionist replace the Constitution crowd.

Go to a black baptist church for example.... or the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. Not exactly what you would see at the Falwell stuff. But many could be called evangelical nonetheless.

[Mariana]

37. I think you're right about that.

Evangelicals who aren't religious would indeed be a subset among evangelicals. A very, very small one.

[mountain grammy]

4. They are serious about ruling America

Sharia law...pretty close.

[Martin Eden]

5. Bill Maher on Friday stated a statistic about evangelical viewership

... of Sean Hannity on Fox. It was something like 80 or 85%.

They've been drinking the kool aid and swallowing the propaganda for decades.

They are misinformed.

[47of74]

6. Yeah these people hopped in bed with ferret face

And now that they have a scorching case of orange fleas they have very little sympathy from me.

In other words. Fuck them. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[CrispyQ]

43. They've been yammering about the anti-Christ for centuries & then they vote for him.

LOL. Not an original - I saw it on FB yesterday.

[Roy Rolling]

7. Christianity on the Cheap

As long as a Republican declares they are anti-abortion, everything else is forgiven.

The one-issue voters are one-trick ponies.

[DylanUSC]

8. I could be wrong but I have always thought Evangelicism & some other religions were always perverse.

A lot of religions are more about male control & just people control period. Guilt complex, etc. However, evangelicals have really shown themselves with Trump. No longer will they be seen as a religion or Christians. Their display of support for Trump vs their display of hateful treatment of President Obama makes it clear what kind of values they hold so dear.

Don't get me wrong, not an atheist anti-religion or whatever. They all have their right to their beliefs but need to keep them to themselves & not try to push them on me. Religion can be good & has some good things but you have to pull them out & separate them from the other stuff. What I am seeing though is extremists have taken over religion like extremists have taken over the republican party & many of them are one & the same.

[calimary]

9. Remember situational ethics? They lambasted President Clinton about that incessantly.

Well, that’s what THEY are and what THEY are doing. A classic example of the proverbial pointing finger. When they point that accusing finger at someone else, three other fingers on the same hand are curling under and aimed back at themselves.

[DylanUSC]

14. I like that analogy of them. They are going to wake up & find out that what they accomplished is

they only destroyed their own what they call a religion because they totally have exposed themselves for what they are.

[paleotn]

13. They will drive one to athiesm...

and they are some malignant, it's tough not wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater. However, I have come to respect many in the faith community, Quakers, many Catholics and mainline Protestants. As an apostate, the evangelicals, even within my own family, hate me and I welcome their hate and wear it as a badge of honor.

[DylanUSC]

15. That is true & because I know several atheists who are more religious than evangelicals.

To me anyway, the evangelicals have bastardized the meaning of Christianity & Religion. As you have said there are many you can have respect for & like who are religious for the right reasons & believe in it & all of the good it is supposed to be but as always, there are those like the evangelicals who give it all a bad name.

[trotsky]

33. Perverse in your view, indeed.

But they think liberal Christians are "perverse" for allowing abortion and homosexuality. That's really the glue holding the evangelicals together - and making them turn a blind eye to Trump. They think that as long as he opposes those big two, everything else he does is irrelevant.

[DylanUSC]

57. Yes, it is indeed my view that they are perverse.

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. Why?

Are their beliefs unusual? It seems to me there's very little separating them from Christians of the previous century, or the century before that.

[DylanUSC]

59. You say Why: Why do you think not? You want me to explain myself & I will. Since you asked the

question & yes, there is a lot separating them from many legitimate religions & some I do not believe in but they are not hypocritical or racists like the evangelicals as well as the way they are misogynists toward women. They are disgusting & they can be that way but I will never, ever go to one of their right-wing, white supremacist conservative/evangelical churches if that is what you can call them. They have gotten worse over time to the point where they now want to use the government to enforce right wing Christian principles as state and federal law. They are blurring the line between church and state—-and that is dangerous. These guys think that the most important things above all else are the following:

Ending legal abortion

Ending secular same sex marriage, and in some really retrograde areas, ending legal protections for people who are not straight.

Whining about being persecuted because people say “'Happy Holidays” or getting worked up about public schools not forcing kids to pray to Jesus.

These guys spend more time complaining about how people use their genitalia then on using the government to help people who are on the margins of society and caring about people who don't look and act like them—-something that their Savior spent a lot of time talking about.

I find it revolting that the Evangelicals were willing to ignore the blatant racial baggage and the association with white supremacist groups Trump had, and vote for this man. And that is before we even get to mentioning his lifestyle which goes against everything the Bible preaches. I mean, if you wanted to illustrate what the Bible doesn't stand for in brief, all you'd have to do is put a picture of Trump up with a message saying “Don’t live like this, don't act like this.

Some of the leaders of the evangelical community, like Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell, Jr. and James Dobson/Focus on the Family have said things about minorities, gay people and Muslims that are so offensive and insensitive you wonder exactly what Bible they are reading, and whether their version has the Gospels in it. And their silence on how Trump views and treated women is unbelievably appalling.

I will take my chances when the time comes to face God on Judgement day as a sinner than as a self-righteous Evangelical so-called Christian.

IMO:

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. All of those qualities were normative to Christianity until very recently.

Are you saying the sweeping majority of the millions of Christians to have lived and died over the past two millennia were likewise perverse?

[DylanUSC]

61. Where have I said anything about what you call normative Christianity. Where have I mentioned

Methodists Baptists, Catholics or many other religions. I have mentioned evangelicals of which much has been discussed about them since their undying support of Trump & how they trashed the Clintons, Obama & Dems for what they now support.

As for any evangelicals who do not support the very, very high percentage of evangelicals supporting the white supremacists & Trump as well as about all of their leaders who do. They need to speak out against them then.

As for all of this, I said, IMO but I am far from being alone in seeing what they are.

[DylanUSC]

65. In other words, over your head to understand or deflecting from your nothing but trying to argue

post as well as you are unable to refute anything about it.

Now, you can go & pick a fight with someone else because you don't like their post & stop wasting my time & you will not have a hard time finding plenty of others even in this thread who know & believe the same as I have said.

Goodby.

[Act_of_Reparation]

67. Yes, I'm sure that's it.

You obviously communicate on a level far, far superior to my own. I sit here equal parts awed and humbled by your run-on sentence structure, subject confusion, and generally atrocious punctuation. I only hope that one day I might be possessed of even a shadow of your enviable skill.

[DylanUSC]

70. I said, do not want to argue with you & asked nicely for you to just go away. I don't care if you

have run out of people to fight with you disagree with. Now, again, go away.

[Mariana]

76. You don't get to order someone else not to post.

Well, you can try, but you'll probably fail. No one is under any obligation to obey you.

[DylanUSC]

77. Well they removed it because it violated the rules.

also, you should actually read & comprehend. Anyone has the right to post but it is the content of the post that is important & there are guidelines on what you post to others.

Now, I am done & do not want to argue with you as well about it.

Thank you for whatever reason you posted that to me.

[paleotn]

11. It's no caricature. It is reality and has always been so....

It's about money, power and being superior to all others. Trust me. I know. I was a part of that world 30+ years ago, being raised in it. The bulk of the evil, despicable fucking bastards I've come in contact with in 50+ years of life are evangelicals. Their religion is a cover for people who hate everyone and everything that is not their circle. Their whole purpose for existence and the complete focus of their religion is to make the world fundygelical, by force if necessary and no matter how much carnage and death that leads to.

Their concept of love functions ONLY within their core mission of converting everyone to their world view. Reject their world view and they are quick to hate you. They are a cancer and need to be stripped of their claims to morality and god. They must be excised like a tumor. They are an existential threat to our democracy and human decency and most be labeled as such until the label sticks.

If you think that's extreme, they consider all who don't think like them to be a cancer and live for the day they can excise us. Trust that from someone who knows their thinking and motivations extremely well.

[Voltaire2]

12. Christianity has been linked to power

and control of the state since Emperor Constantine in the 4th century. There is no theological conflict.

[Major Nikon]

18. Without this event, Christianity would have died like so many others

The Age of Enlightenment was the divorce decree between Christianity and government. They have been trying to get back together ever since.

[Rhiannon12866]

20. I recently read this article which ties Trump to "Christian TV"

Church of The Donald
Never mind Fox. Trump’s most reliable media mouthpiece is now Christian TV.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/04/22/trump-christian-evangelical-conservatives-television-tbn-cbn-218008

[Eliot Rosewater]

53. Whether it is heroes who died for this country or left limbs on the battle field or REAL

Christians (truth be told there are very few of these, actually) I am continually amazed how almost half of the nation will say they are good that their faith or service go into the toilet with rump and putin.

Amazing lack of substance with these people.

True christian cant vote, let alone be a politician. I learned this from a JW who i trust knows what he is talking about.

Thanks for the link.

[ollie10]

66. Some Christians believe in voting. Others not.

There are diverse views within Christianity. It is not one size fits all.

[Eliot Rosewater]

72. Believe? Check with the JW as to why you dont get that option

[Mariana]

94. Why would he care what the JW's think?

If he thought the JW's interpretation of the Bible was correct, he'd be a JW. There's a good chance his church teaches that JW's aren't even Christians.

[Mariana]

68. On what basis are Christians not supposed to vote? nt.

[Eliot Rosewater]

71. You will have to research it, it is there in the NEw Testament as I recall

JW says you cant even have an opinion on politics, I trust the JW to be using scripture for this.

[marylandblue]

92. Jehovah's Witnesses have their own unique views

And they are no more or less based in Bible than any other denomination. Jesus could not have had a position on voting because nobody voted in those days. Jesus was definitely political. Many of his positions were intensely political but we have lost the political context so we only see the theological now.

Attacking the moneychangers in the Temple was a political act because the Temple was the center of political as well as theological power. And the purpose of the money changers was to change Roman coins, which displayed pagan symbols, into "kosher" Jewish coins that could be allowed into the Temple to purchase sacrificial animals. This practice was essential to maintaining Judaism as a distinctive religion within the Empire, hence the political power of the theocracy based in the Temple.

[Mariana]

93. I looked it up.

The JW's position that church members shouldn't vote is based on their interpretation of some pretty vague statements made by Jesus, like that his kingdom isn't of this world, that kind of thing.

[DetlefK]

102. Oh damn, you beat me to it. I wanted to post about this. :D

But seriously, there is a bit in that article that fits perfectly to the OP: How the Evangelicals are willing to sell out to Trump because he courts them and treats them with respect.

It's not that there's ideological overlap: It's simply because he plays to their feelings of being oppressed outsiders.

[tblue37]

30. K&R to read later. nt

[forgotmylogin]

39. I had to assure a European friend of mine in chat...

that women do not routinely have babies and sell them to make money in America. That sounds like rightwing evangelical talking points getting out.

[CrispyQ]

41. You can't reason with these people.

I know Christians & I know some zealots & you can't talk to the zealots. They only hear what they want to hear.

Years ago, when Jack Cafferty still had his 5 minutes on Wolf's show, he did a segment on the dominionists & he was genuinely scared at what he was reporting. People wrote in & they were scared too, but CNN never did a special on this group. They are largely ignored by MSM & I believe it's because our culture has a taboo against questioning any religion that claims to be Christian.

[NeoGreen]

69. The conversation we need to have here...

...is how "progressive" evangelicals give a patina of cover to the grotesque evangelicals, which prevents honest discussion of just how grotesque it all is in total.

[Mariana]

83. Hell, yes.

If their beliefs and practices really are all that different, maybe it's time for one group to take a different name, so as to avoid confusion. I recommend the "progressive" ones give up the name evangelical, since that word is going to be linked in everyone's mind to Donald J. Trump forevermore.

They might even consider giving up the name Christian, because that word's been tarnished pretty badly, too. Think how much time and energy would be saved if someone didn't have to leap up and cry, "All Christians aren't like that!" every single time the subject is discussed.

[marylandblue]

88. Some evangelicals already don't want to use the word

But they haven't come up with anything else yet.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2016/november-web-exclusives/are-evangelical-pastors-discarding-evangelical-label.html

I suspect we will just see a repeat of history. 100 years ago, these people called themselves fundamentalists. But by the 70s, that became synonymous with a narrow, backward point of view. So they started calling themselves evangelicals. Now that evangelical is synonymous with hypocritical racist and misogynist, they are looking for a new name. The new name should be good for another 50 years or so.

[ollie10]

97. So you think you, as an atheist, can tell Christians not to call themselves Christians?

That's about like someone who rides a horse and buggy telling someone how to drive a car or what to name it

You said, "They might even consider giving up the name Christian, because that word's been tarnished pretty badly, too. Think how much time and energy would be saved if someone didn't have to leap up and cry, "All Christians aren't like that!" every single time the subject is discussed"

Well, even more time and energy would be saved if those people who try to paint all Christians as if they were Jerry Fallwells....didn't do that.

They might even discover that some of these Christians are opposed to the Jerry Fallwells even more than they are....and that liberal Christians could be their allies ..... but instead they are treated as the enemy and so the cycle goes

[Mariana]

98. Ollie, seriously, what are you doing?

I haven't seen much in the way of posts from you about the Jerry Falwells of the world. Very few of your posts here discuss religion at all. Almost every post you make consists of you complaining about other posters here.

Furthermore, most of what you complain about doesn't even happen. No one here has tried to paint all Christians is if they were Jerry Falwell. If you can find any such post, please link to it. Now, if the poster just didn't take pains to point out out that all Christians aren't bad, that doesn't count. Everyone already knows all Christians aren't bad, so there's no need to say that in every single post about Christians or Christianity.

It's interesting, though, that when someone does post about the Falwells of the word, your first instinct isn't to post in agreement that the Falwells of the word are a problem. You don't post any ideas for opposing them in the real world, nor any word of support for their many victims. No, you can be counted on to attack the poster for not singing the praises of liberal Christians, in a thread that isn't even about liberal Christians. Why is that?

[ollie10]

99. It is your choice

You (not just you, others too) can cut out the blanket dissing of religion and/or Christianity.....in which case the liberal Christians might become your ally.

Or you can continue to use your tone to diss religion or Christianity with a wide brush....in which case the liberal Christians will either ignore you or, in a few cases, try to show you that painting with a wide brush is not cool.

If liberal christians have to use time and energy simply trying to fight against the denigration of religion in general, then they won't have as much time left to attack the Falwells of this world.

Quite frankly, I am more reactive than anything else. There aren't any Falwell types on this board that I know about. If there were I am sure I would argue with them. I have done so on other boards over the years other than DU where the fundies are more common.

I really feel that DU people should be less prejudicial and more open minded,,,,about religion. Nowhere have I dissed atheism....but all the time I see the annointed ones of this board dissing religion, comparing religious people to followers of unicorns and making gross historical untruths as if they were truths etched in stone.

There has to be a better way. If you guys simply attacked the Falwells or specific abuses rather than rant and rave about religion in general....I would be very happy. Actually, I am not sure it it makes any difference to argue. There is a HUGE similarity between evangelic religion and evangelic atheism. It would be better all around if Christians didn't try to shove their ideas down the throats of non-believers and same goes for those who want to shove the idea that religion is bad down other people's throats.

[Mariana]

100. Ollie, this is one group on DU.

It is the only group on DU that permits the kind of discussion that goes on here. It has relatively few regular posters. It seems to me like it is you that is painting with a broad brush, trying to pretend that this one lone little group represents the entirety of DU. You know perfectly well it does not.

You said, "There is a HUGE similarity between evangelic religion and evangelic atheism." That is false. Evangelistic Christians are currently in political office at all levels, furiously writing laws to oppress women, LGBT people, and non-Christians, and to use the power and the resources of government to promote their religion. They are doing this right now, as we speak, and some of them are succeeding. They receive enthusiastic support from a majority of the Christians in this country for their efforts. Those are just facts.

"Evangelistic" atheists, on the other hand, occasionally put up a few billboards (among the thousands upon thousands of religious ones everywhere), write books, and make speeches. Some of them file suit, often at personal risk to themselves, to enforce the law regarding separation of church and state. Do you seriously have a problem with them doing any of those things?

Here you are, griping about a few people posting on one little lone group, one out of hundreds on this website. On DU, there are several groups available for discussion of religion in which criticism is prohibited, but in this one little lone group we can freely disagree. You begrudge us even that. It's not even that you want us to stay in our place, because this group is our place, just as much as it is yours. You want to deny us a place altogether. How greedy can you be?

[ollie10]

103. I see you have made your choice

[Mariana]

105. What are you going to do, vote Republican out of spite?

If you're going to refuse to be our ally, because we don't exercise our freedom of speech in a way that meets your approval, does that mean you're now going to help the Falwells of the world to oppress us?

[ollie10]

106. I won't vote Republican

But you totally missed the point.

You have made your choice.

Now live with it.

[Mariana]

117. Yes, yes, we know. Suck up to Christians, or else.

That's been a pretty common theme in history. We know how it goes, when Christians have the power to enforce it.

In the meantime, here's what Christians in the Senate have been doing. Thanks to guillaumeb for posting a link to this essay published on Religion News Service:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218281317

And here you are, enraged about a few posters in one little teeny tiny corner of the internets, who have exactly zero power to affect your life, and threatening them with some vague but apparently serious consequences because they won't shut up.

"You have made your choice. Now live with it." - ollie10

[ollie10]

120. I didn't say anything about sucking up to anyone

However, you can choose to be respectful or you can choose not to be.

You give yourself way too much credit. Nobody over here is enraged..... Amused, yes.

[NeoGreen]

130. Maybe not enraged...

...but quite hateful:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=275223

I hate the attitude of superiority. I hate it among religious people....and anti-religious people.

One might be the spark for the other.

[ollie10]

96. yeah....let's attack progressives! That'll work!!!

Is this DU or a right wing rag?

[guillaumeb]

86. Ridiculous caricature.

But it plays into the beliefs of some.

[Major Nikon]

90. Sure, the claim that 80% represents the group is just ridiculous

http://time.com/5161349/president-trump-white-evangelical-support-slaveholders/

[DetlefK]

104. #NotAllEvangelicals

[trotsky]

131. It's reality, no matter how much you wish it wasn't, gil.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/11/09/exit-polls-show-white-evangelicals-voted-overwhelmingly-for-donald-trump/

Exit polls show white evangelical voters voted in high numbers for Donald Trump, 80-16 percent, according to exit poll results. That’s the most they have voted for a Republican presidential candidate since 2004, when they overwhelmingly chose President George W. Bush by a margin of 78-21 percent. Their support for Trump will likely be seen as part of the reason the GOP candidate performed unexpectedly well in Tuesday’s election, according to Five Thirty Eight.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

101. WAYYY past time!!

[heaven05]

108. Knowing the bible

as I do, there are passages somewhere, just look up christians being laughed/persecuted in these modern times in the concordance, for their beliefs. What was left out of those passages is white racist denominations full of hateful racists christians DESERVE to be laughed at for their following a white christian god and racist fucking preachers of religious denominations that approved of slavery in enough passages of that book that white ameriKKKan christians could use those passages to forcibly enslave millions. And when the law forbade them slaves, could use the bible to lynch, mutilate, burn and all the way up to this very day, HATE all nonwhite americans, men, women and children, AA's predominantly even if they believed as the white christian believed. Praise god and to HELL with white ameriKKKan christianity. PERIOD. This is not a rant, this is from personal experience of living the ameriKKKan religious life.

[pansypoo53219]

133. for that jeebus sect, it always was.