The underlying harm of religion

[Cartoonist]

Christmas is the perfect example of why religion is a negative force. As many of us know, Christmas is the outright theft of winter solstice celebrations. The resulting harm in that is that reality is replaced by mythology.

Ask a kid when Christmas is and they'll all tell you December 25. Ask a kid when the winter solstice is and only a few will even know what a solstice is. I went to a Catholic school for seven years and never heard of solstices until I went to junior high and saw a documentary on Stonehenge.

It was eye opening for me. I became interested in astronomy which revealed our true place in the universe. As for religion, it was the major obstacle to a sun centric planetary system. Can you believe just one passage in the Bible kept mankind ignorant for years after Copernicus saw the true way of things? Galileo was sent to the dungeon for observing Jupiter's moons.

When science and reality can be overridden by a book of fables, the result can't be beneficial. It continues today with religious demands to teach creationism in our schools. It continues today with religious denial of climate change. It continues today with religious influence on geopolitics.

This failure of religion is far more detrimental to humanity than any perceived benefit.

[Voltaire2]

1. We are stuck with their ancient baggage and failed explanations.

Unfortunately the Holocene gods and their institutions are not going away anytime soon.

[HopeAgain]

2. So Yule and the other historical solstice celebrations

had nothing to do with religion or spiritual practices? We don't celebrate the summer solstice.. is Christmas responsible for that as well?

[Cartoonist]

3. That's what I said

The spring equinox was converted to Easter. The church attempted to replace Halloween with All Saints Day but failed. A huge victory for paganism. Do you have any valid points to make?

[HopeAgain]

15. it seems like an overreach to me

First, the Pagan celebrations were based in their religions, and that is why the Christians wanted to supersede it, and second, Christmas doesn't even fall on the equinox. If people want to get excited by the fact that they are perpendicular to the sun, Religion does nothing to prevent it as far as I can see.

Being religious and having an interest in science is not mutually exclusive.

[guillaumeb]

25. But that framing of mutual exclusivity is much favored by some here.

It allows for a black and white mindset that condemns what it does not share.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. Why don't you name some names and ask us what we do/do not observe.

You might be surprised.

[MineralMan]

4. Some did. Others did not.

People have always studied the stars and other lights in the sky. Sometimes for religious reasons, and sometimes out of curiosity. The patterns of movement are interesting as the year progresses, so people kept records of them. It wasn't long until the connection between those movements and those all-important seasons became clear.

Even if there were religious or spiritual ties to star and planet observations, knowing the times of the seasons was still important. When Christian religious holidays replaced celebrations of astronomical events that helped people understand the seasons, something was lost and replaced with something not associated with those seasons.

I think it's remarkable that human beings knew the exact date of the shortest and longest days of the year, even before they kept written records. Those dates were important enough that they've always been of interest to humans. It's sad that many people have no idea about it any longer.

[dlk]

6. Add to that the Millions Killed in the Name of Religion Throughout History

[MineralMan]

9. Yeah. That's not limited to any one religion, though,

and really seems to be more closely tied to territoriality than anything else, I think. Everyone who is born will die. Some die in remarkable stupid ways, like wars. I dislike wars, regardless of the reason for them.

[Cartoonist]

10. The disconnect

When religion has respect for science and acknowledges reality by incorporating it in its observances, then I have no major quibbles.

When it overrides reality and replaces it with an outright lie, then I have serious objections, as should everyone.

When the ancient builders of Stonehenge know more than the Pope, then yes, something has been lost.

[MineralMan]

12. The Stonehenge builders knew what was important to them.

The Pope, I suppose, also knew what was important to him.

Farmers always know what's important. So do hunters and gatherers. The deer will have their rut at about the same date every year, and the time to gather specific kinds of foods is also dependent on the calendar.

For a Pope, such things don't matter. Someone makes the Pope's food from ingredients at the marketplace. A Pope has no need to know when the shortest day of the year occurs.

Today, we're all sort of insulated from the need to understand such things. Most people have no idea, except that the TeeVee weather guy tells them that "tomorrow is the shortest day of the year." But that' doesn't matter. They go to their jobs by the clock, not the sunrise.

We don't care any longer about astronomical observations. Hell, most of us never look at the night sky anyhow.

[Cartoonist]

14. The night sky

I was out for a walk last night and was delighted to see a halo around the moon.



Religion stole that word as well.

[MineralMan]

19. Lovely photo!

[guillaumeb]

26. Stole the word?

Has religion been "stealing" words for 300,000 years?

[Cartoonist]

30. That and other things

You need to study real history, not biblical history.

[guillaumeb]

33. LIke the "real history" presented here?

I prefer reality based history to speculative musings.

[marylandblue]

47. You are being a literalist

[MineralMan]

5. Who doesn't celebrate the summer solstice? You?

Many people do, who are aware of it. You may not, but that isn't necessarily true of others. My wife was born on the day of the Spring Equinox. We were married on the Winter Solstice. Both are of significance as dates.

But, yes, the Christian religion is more or less responsible for people being less aware of those important days. By deliberately erasing celebrations or substituting for them, they lessened awareness.

Does it really matter? That depends on what really matters to individuals, I think. Might not matter to you. Might matter to others.

[yallerdawg]

7. "The underlying harm" of Christianity...

is for co-opting some pagan rituals celebrating the shortest day of the year?

You know what - I think you nailed it!

[Cartoonist]

11. That was just a symptom

The harm is in replacing reality with mythology.

[guillaumeb]

27. And substituting another mythology?

That makes sense.

[MineralMan]

13. Yes, in some ways that IS the underlying harm.

But, that would require a little more thought, so I'll just leave it right there.

[yallerdawg]

17. "Why are discussions about religious beliefs always so adversarial?"

See OP title.

[MineralMan]

18. Hmm...I've seen the entire thread.

I rarely read just titles.

[Cartoonist]

20. Oppression

Some of us are against it.

[yallerdawg]

21. You're being oppressed.

Because someone has a different opinion than you.

Because someone has a different outlook than you.

Because someone disagrees with you.

I bet the truly oppressed - often minority religious groups everywhere on the planet - feel your pain.

[Cartoonist]

22. Exactly

Just ask the native Americans how well they were treated by Christians.

[yallerdawg]

23. A lot of deists, agnostics and atheists...

were involved in the treatment of Native Americans.

This country - the USA - was not founded by Christians. Its policies and oppression were not derived from Christian oppression.

Just like today.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Are you fucking kidding me? In the last 10 minutes I've seen two posts by you belittling pagan

holidays/existence.

Atheists/Agnostics are a minority most places on the planet. We know full well what oppression feels like. Lack of faith (apostasy) carries the death sentence in at least 5 countries I can think of off the top of my head.

[yallerdawg]

55. You make some giant leaps that I just don't follow.

I don't belittle anything people believe.

I just want everyone to realistically acknowledge that we all believe in some things - and we all make choices.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. No 'we' don't all 'believe' in some things.

[safeinOhio]

8. I love to study and compare religions, even

though I don't buy any of it.

I'm not about to condemn all religions and religious people or lump them all together. There are Liberal Religions that are basically good and do good. Quakers, UUs and Red-letter Bible Christians and others. I don't condemn them or always a agree.

On the other hand there are some Atheist philosophies I can't stand, Ayn Rand and her followers are about as evil and greedy as some of the worst religions. Back in the day Madalyn Murray O'hair use to rub me the wrong way with her anger.

In order to have an open mind, one should not look at issues in black and white and lump everyone together. Everything is gray.

[Pope George Ringo II]

16. Never mind astronomy or wars, let's talk about medicine.

Shutting your brain off after saying "goddidit" has killed millions.

To take just one example, let's look at the Black Death. Estimates for fatalities run well into nine digits, and the initial explanation was "goddidit." Then they got a little more sophisticated and said it was planetary conjunction or bad air. Or maybe it was the fault of Jews, lepers, or people with acne--and thousands were murdered in persecutions to win divine favor. Women were forbidden to appear on the street because the plague was divine retribution for tempting men. And that's not even looking at the reports that some of the stupid bastards actively made things worse by killing the cats which were killing the rats which were carrying the fleas. The plague recurred around Africa and Eurasia for centuries, and it was still killing tens of millions into the 19th Century when somebody finally applied the scientific method and truly fought it.

That's one disease. One disease virtually eradicated by science after religious ignorance allowed and even participated in the deaths of hundreds of millions, while religion used it as an excuse to murder and discriminate. Do we even need a second example?

[guillaumeb]

24. Yet another iteration of a simple meme.

With the same mis-framing, the same insistence that religion and science deal with the same areas of thinking.

But if it gives some people comfort, this attack framed as analysis, that comfort is of some small use.

As to Galileo, and Copernicus, this quote is an interesting counter-response:

“Lest we forget, the birth of modern physics and cosmology was achieved by Galileo, Kepler and Newton breaking free not from the close confining prison of faith (all three were believing Christians, of one sort or another) but from the enormous burden of the millennial authority of Aristotelian science. The scientific revolution of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was not a revival of Hellenistic science but its final defeat.”
― David Bentley Hart, Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies

But because this position avoids the simple framing of "religion is the problem", it is not popular among some.

[Cartoonist]

28. So when did you first learn of the two solstices?

Frame it however you like. And feel free to quote a fellow theist if it makes you feel as though someone has your back.

[guillaumeb]

31. In secondary school. A religious school.

And in history of religion. And anyone who looks at a calendar can read of the solstice.

This is sheer speculation, or fantasy if you wish. Why not wish that humans could fly to avoid the pollution from jet fuel?

[Cartoonist]

34. You're losing it

Relax. Drink something. Water is OK.

[guillaumeb]

35. You lost the argument with your initial framing.

More magical thinking, but from a non-theistic perspective.

I liked to watch Star Trek, but I also realized that Spock was a fictional character.

[Cartoonist]

38. What argument?

Are you claiming no one is trying to teach creationism in our schools?

[guillaumeb]

39. No I am referring to your initial post.

Referencing "the underlying harm".

[Cartoonist]

40. Then I win

Teaching kids creationism is harmful.

[guillaumeb]

41. If it is the only thing taught, it could be harmful.

If creationism is taught in school, as science, it could be harmful to their understanding of the physical world.

[yallerdawg]

43. There was actually an original "Star Trek" episode...

where the Enterprise was observing a planet which had mimicked the days of Roman coliseum and gladiators, and thought they had been hearing about a religious uprising of sun worshippers.

At the end, Uhura made a correction and said it was "son" worshippers (again!).

[guillaumeb]

44. Oh no!!!! Even Star Trek?

And what did Spock say? Total brotherhood?

[marylandblue]

46. Never liked that episode

Made it seem like Christianity caused the fall of the Roman Empire, but it likely would have fallen anyway. Also it depended on a homonym that works in English, but not in Latin.

[marylandblue]

45. Faith in Aristotle and Ptolemy became part of Christian faith

in ways that probably would have appalled both of them. Religion privileges received wisdom over independent thought. It draws boundaries around what can be thought. Rennaisance humanism broke this spell and just as the early humanists developed new scholarly and artistic approaches, early scientists learned to see for themselves rather than just study old books.

We've seen this happen in the modern era as well. Libertarianism started out as a secular idea. But somehow it became a conservative Christian idea, and pretty soon, we can't help the poor because Jesus wants us to work for our bread. Nevermind that the Bible doesn't say that. It's received wisdom among conservative Christians, so it must be true.

[guillaumeb]

48. And these boundaries often coincide with the interests of the ruling classes.

Probably coincidental.

[marylandblue]

49. Your snide remark is nonresponsive to my comment

And inconsistent with your new resolution to seek to be an instrument of peace rather than discord.

[guillaumeb]

50. I meant it in a sincere way.

Division serves the rich.

[marylandblue]

51. Then I don't understand your response

I am saying religion misused Aristotle an Ptolemy, turning him from a philosopher into a pre-Christian theologian saint. So Galileo and team broke away from both the Church itself and the misuse of ancient Greek science, where the geocentric model became Christian dogma. Nothing to do with division in service of the rich as far as I can see. It's true he brought division, but it didn't help the rich.

Luther brought division as well, but he also broke up the corruption in the church which was a major profit center.

In the days of Constantine, religion was used to unify the empire, and increasingly through the fourth century, the way to riches was to join the church.

[Sneederbunk]

29. And if you ask about the Vernal Equinox, just forget it.

[RKP5637]

32. I've always thought of religion as a very negative influence on mankind, especially with

those so propagandized they travel in the ruts of life without ever looking out, than trying to force others to think/believe as they do.

[Pope George Ringo II]

36. Overall, definitely.

Some positive exceptions, but the balance is staggeringly negative. Especially for monotheism.

On the bright side, the progression has been animism->polytheism->monotheism->??? so there's a real evidence of humanity having spent thousands of years working its way toward having fewer and fewer gods in its life.

[RKP5637]

37. It could be a positive influence, but so often it slides toward the dark side. As you said, at least

we don't have a god under every rock these days.

[Corvo Bianco]

42. Thank you

It always brightens my day when someone admonishes fables and Boogeymen. The repercussions of upholding the commands of an anthropomorphic universe creator who is pissy and petty are enormous.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

52. Galileo wasn't sent to a dungeon; he was sentenced to house arrest.

And that wasn't because he observed Jupiter's moons. It was because he published the "heresy" that the sun is at the center of the universe and is motionless and that the earth is not at the center and does move. "Eppur se muova," (And yet it moves) he is claimed to have said, even after he agreed to withdraw his thesis. Galileo did identify Jupiter's moons, and published his findings, but that's not what got him in trouble with the Inquisition. Another astronomer, Simon Marius, independently discovered them one day after Galileo, though he did not publish his discovery until several years later - and he didn't get in trouble either. The Inquisition found Galileo's heliocentric theory to be heretical because of the Biblical passages stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved"; "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." They didn't care about the moons of Jupiter.