Religion
Related: About this forumDo countries become less religious as they get richer?
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0316/Do-countries-become-less-religious-as-they-get-richerA new study from the Pew Research Center shows that the wealthier a country is, the less religious its people tend to be, except America.
By Rowena Lindsay, Staff Writer MARCH 16, 2015
The curve represents the logarithmic relationship between GDP per capita and the percentage saying that religion plays a very important role in their lives. Germany, France, Britain % data from spring 2011; US., Japan % data from spring 2012. Source: Spring 2011, 2012, 2013 Global Attitudes survey. Data for GDP per capita (PPP) from IMF World Economic Outlook Database, April 2014
A study recently published by the Pew Research Center suggests that people in richer countries tend to be less religious and less optimistic than those in poorer countries. The United States, however, is a notable outlier.
Measured by gross domestic product per capita, the US was wealthiest nation surveyed. According to Pew's survey, 54 percent of Americans said religion was very important in their lives more than double the percentage in the next three wealthiest economies: Canada (24 percent), Australia (21 percent) and Germany (21 percent).
According to Pew, the United States is also unlike similarly wealthy countries in that Americans put a greater emphasis on the correlation between belief in God and morality. Also, people in the U.S. also tend to be more optimistic than other wealthy nations, and on any given day are more likely to say they are having a particularly good day than are people in other wealthy countries.
But despite their religious tendencies, 57 percent of Americans do not agree that success in life is pretty much determined by forces outside our control, according to a different study conducted by Pew in 2014. This is significantly over the global median, 38 percent, and is perhaps a sign of the importance Americans place on individual achievement.
more at link
liberal N proud
(60,352 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)It also happens that someone can call themselves "doctor" and clean the pockets of the gullible.
There are bad apples in every barrel.
okasha
(11,573 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)most vulnerable are the most despicable, whatever their chosen field to scam.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)that higher levels of education lead to greater wealth AND less religiosity, rather than there being a cause/effect relationship between wealth and "faith".
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)and it is not a wealthy country by any means.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)there is an absolute correlation.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Richer countries have more access to education, hence their populations are less religious on the whole.
Except in the U.S. because we view teachers as evil Fifth Columnists, education as communist indoctrination and knowledge as Satan's influence.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)There is no correlation between education and religion.
There have been studies which show both a positive and negative correlation and there is no clear conclusion.
As far as I have seen the only consistent positive correlation is between religiosity (somewhat difficult to measure) and economic status.
And while there may be a correlation between economic status and education, it's not consistent enough to grab as a data point.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)One could probably explain the position of the U.S. on the chart with the confluence of religion and politics in the U.S.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It was a country founded on religious liberty. Despite the clear rules regarding separation, there has been a nurturing of religion to some extent.
That, of course, has become a really serious problem and I think the 1st amendment is being flagrantly violated.
Hoping that the pendulum will swing back.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,411 posts)Not that education can be quantified in the same way, but, divided up into categories:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/25585/religion-most-important-blacks-women-older-americans.aspx
So, 'very important' goes from 64% to 50% in 4 education groups; from 67% to 49% in 5 income groups. Education and household income are well correlated, of course. I don't think saying there's a correlation between education and importance of religion is 'false', though.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)There are some really good references in the Wiki article on this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_education#cite_note-9
I feel pretty confident that there is no conclusive evidence here and that calling the assumption "false" is accurate.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,411 posts)by saying "but it's false for the most recent generation". Maedhros did not specify the age of people.
It's true. It will become less true as time goes on. But, now, it's true. You are inaccurate in calling it 'false'.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If you look at Jews, Muslims and Catholics, there is a strong correlation between education and religion. If you look at fundamentalists, the reverse is true.
There is data all over the place and none of it appears to back a definitive statement that there is lower religiosity with increased education.
In fact, some of the studies quoted show lower levels of education among atheists than the religious in general, though not for agnostics.
The problem here is primarily in the definition of "religiosity". It is too variable to be adequately quantified and self-reports are notoriously inaccurate.
It's not true. It's a false assumption, but if you wish to push it as truth despite no good evidence to back it up, I won't stop you. I will only challenge you.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,411 posts)The same pattern is applicable to formal Educational Attainment. As formal educational attainment rises, fewer self-describe themselves to be religious:
Percent of Population describing itself as RELIGIOUS
Less than Secondary Education 68%
Secondary Education 61%
Higher Education 52%
http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/14/file/14.pdf
What the Wikipedia page says (though not in the footnote about age groups that you linked to) is:
So, some small groups in America ( Hindus, Jews, Episcopalians, Buddhists, and Orthodox Christians) have high levels of education. The unaffliated have slightly above average levels of education. One big group - Catholics - and 2 small groups, Mormons and Muslims, are at about the national average, and another big group - evangelicals are below the national average.
Take all that together, and the unaffliated level of education is higher that the affliated, on average. I'm showing you the evidence. You're just closing your eyes to it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)can easily found that will contradict it.
The underlying problem is due to the immense diversity of the variable.
I have looked at multiple sources. All conclude that you just can't draw a conclusion.
This is one of those issues where you can definitely find something to support your position if you want, because the data is all over the place.
You've got nothing.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,411 posts)"it's complicated". Without giving actual figures.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If you want to take a definitive stand here, go for it. I'm done.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)LOL
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Wright, Bradley R.E. (2010). Christians are hate-filled hypocrites-- and other lies you've been told : a sociologist shatters myths from the secular and christian media. Minneapolis, Minn.: Bethany House. pp. 8788
muriel_volestrangler
(101,411 posts)though "religious groups normally have significant levels of education compared to those who are non-religious" is just what the Wikipedia editor said, not Wright.
You agree with #32, then? Wright goes on to say, on p.89, "According to the Pew Religious Landscape Survey, 60% of high school graduates who didn't go to college regard religion as very important. Those numbers go down to 55% if those with some college education and 50% of college graduates. A similar pattern holds true with a certainty in God and praying outside of religious services (although there are little differences with church attendance rates by education).
Here's that survey: http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-full.pdf
In it, we find (p.56), go from 'less than high school', through 'high school grad', 'some college', 'college grad', post-grad', the percentages are:
Total Population 14 36 23 16 11
Unaffiliated 13 34 24 16 13
of which:
Atheist 8 28 23 21 21
Agnostic 5 22 29 23 20
Secular unaffiliated 10 35 24 17 13
Religious unaffiliated 21 40 22 11 6
So atheist, agnostic and secular unaffiliated are above the national average for education. The religious unaffiliated are below.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have a high school degree and that's it. I beat out a 15 year Master in Communications for my first job at Microsoft. He spent a lot of time accruing titles in various education systems, didn't make him any smarter.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Bradley Wright also "shatters" a myth that you hold dear - about "the nones."
cbayer
(146,218 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,411 posts)It does look like the religious nonaffiliated have a significant lower level of education.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The ones you are quite adamant are NOT atheists.
It's fun watching you demolish your own positions!
cbayer
(146,218 posts)"Secularism & Secularity: Contemporary International Perspectives". Hartford, CT: Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture (ISSSC), 2007. p. 36.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)may be caused by a "bimodal distribution" due to rapidly increasing numbers of atheists in younger people, those who have not had time to acquire advanced degrees.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)One thing you'll notice about the least religious nations is that they tend to be liberal democracies with expansive social welfare systems. In these countries, the government has assumed a role traditionally belonging to religious institutions--caring for the needy and the poor. If people are no longer beholden to religious institutions for their very survival, it follows that these institutions will command less authority and respect.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think your conclusions about the types of government they have might be a bit off the mark.
While China has done a lot of what you describe because it has embraced communism, there is a growing religious population, so the conclusion that those countries provide for the population what religion does in other places, and thereby eliminates the need for religion, also seems a bit off.
I thin the bottom line is that it's very complex and the role that religion plays can not be easily described.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)those two data points don't really offset the dozens of others like you evidently think they do. This isn't like a global warming "debate" on FOX News where one side with 99% of climate scientists is equal to the other that has a handful of industry-paid shills.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)and we also have a major political Party that wears it's religious fervor on its sleeve - and this Party wants to reverse what you have just described.
They want to get the government out of the social assistance game altogether, and argue that churches should take up the slack. Naturally, this will give churches more authority and respect, which they will use to strengthen the Party that gave it to them.
That explains a LOT.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)The income disparity here is much wider than other nations of our class, and our social welfare programs leave something to be desired. So, while we technically have a lot of wealth, that wealth is highly concentrated at the top of the income ladder. This leaves millions of people in the middle and at the bottom who still derive social utility from religious institutions.
But I doubt this is a calculated move on the part of republicans to give religious institutions more authority. Secularization is pretty heady reading material, far beyond the grasp of, say, Ted Cruz or Rand Paul.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)And economic mobility maps look a lot like religiosity maps, and a lot like political affiliation maps.
Blue, more mobile, less religious. There is a very strong correlation.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I think most of it is a mile wide and an inch deep.
In God We Trust but let's have by far the most powerful military in the world, just to be sure.
okasha
(11,573 posts)American exceptionalism relies in very large part on tne belief that the US is uniquely, divinely favored. The resultant triumphalism necessitates the obscenely overfunded war machine.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about America or Americans and jingoism isn't a religion no matter how much some people might wish it was.
Not to mention atheists are the most knowledgeable group in America regarding religion, that tells me right there that most theists don't actually pay much attention in Sunday School or Vacation Bible School.
okasha
(11,573 posts)is true but irrelevant. I suggest you read William Bradford on the subject of the Puritan colonies in what is now Massachusetts.
annabanana
(52,791 posts)The human need for order is served by religion or superstition or physical security.
http://www.amazon.com/Anxiety-Magic-Thinking-Charles-Odier/dp/B000NWU3YI
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Is this your philosophy?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts).... that the USA is going the wrong way and far behind where it "should" be. Even with this graph about money and religion it looks like the world is looking at us sideways and going "what ARE they doing over there?"
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Since the US falls pretty much at the 50% mark for religiosity, the real outlier here is the GDP.
It is in our wealth that we fall off the curve.
And, I agree, the world is asking "what ARE they doing over there?"
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)glowing
(12,233 posts)if that "wealth" per capita is the proper way to assign wealth in this country? We have the few at the top making lots and lots of money... And then there is the rest of America; still falling behind. And like President Obama once said, and became bashed over the head by media at that time: when people are poor they cling to their God and the Guns (something to that effect, but much more elegantly stated).
Perhaps part of clinging to God and equating morality with receiving good things like wrath or a good paying job for s reward, is just part of the package.
When you are awake in the middle of the night because your belly is empty, a child is sick, and worry over paying for rent or food or the electric bill, having the solice of talking to "God" may be the only peace of mind that helps still the upset in your mind, because Lord knows, you certainly don't have the money to pay for mental health professionals to get you thru the next day.
Being poor is like a 12 step program of living one day at a time; trying to make it just one more hour, one more night, one more week, one more year of hell!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Income mobility is lowest in the south, where religious affiliation is highest. Which causes which?
This is the same region with the highest boot-strappy right wing demographic, so... Is the income non-mobility then perhaps due to undercutting social programs like education?
Edit: and if that's the case, is religion refuge from, or the cause of their inequality/poor income levels?
Compare Iowa and Mississippi on this map.
http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/
Both states have roughly the same population, but Iowa spends more than 20% more on education. 10.8bn to 8.1bn in state and local spending.
That boot-strappy take care of yourself, trim public services bullshit has consequences. Where do people get it from?
glowing
(12,233 posts)Because they have been on the poorer side of things, they kling to religion.... The religion gets hijacked by a political party, and some tele-jerk is on the TV telling you that life is bad because of those other people, and their lifestyle. Like morality pays the bills....
A revolving cycle it seems.