Religion
Related: About this forumThoughts on why atheist/progressive believer cooperation is rocky
Two caveats:
1. I think there already is cooperation on a whole lot of things between atheists and believers. I think it just gets rocky when it comes to separation issues and other "religion related" issues.
2. I really hesitate to start this thread.
So, I think the problem that I have not seen put into words at this point (I likely have missed this being expressed in some thread I didn't take part in, so please forgive me if this is something you have said prior.) comes to an issue of trust. Here's the thing (and I'm speaking just for myself here, perhaps other atheists agree, but we didn't talk about this at our secret meeting last night): I realize I have a lot of privilege in this society, but when it comes to my atheism, I don't. I am a member of the most distrusted sub-group in the US and this is confirmed at least annually by studies. So, in the area of atheism, I get dumped on a lot. I wish I didn't, but I realize it is the world we live in. Hopefully things will get better but who knows. Living where I do doesn't give me a whole lot of hope. Teaching high school students and seeing small shifts in attitudes over the decades does give me hope. Anyway. Because I am at the bottom of the totem pole, I see a lot of crap and hear a lot of crap. What really makes me mad is when this happens on a progressive site.
I would love to work together with progressive believers in the areas where there is tension now. I really would. But you have to realize that I am very skeptical about how much support I'm going to get if I do. I need to trust you in order to do that. The fact that you have so much frickin' privilege and I have so little makes that even more important. And when I come on a progressive site and see progressive believers saying the things they do--spouting the RW talking points about religion that they do, crying bigotry just because their religion is criticized, saying that the "new" atheists are big meanies and just need to stay quiet--it gets very hard for me to trust you. If I'm going to work with you, I need to know you have my back. And I don't feel that way. I feel like if things get tough, you'll throw me under the bus. Happens every election cycle when I am told that I need to stop making an issue about something because "we don't want to give Republicans something to talk about." So, being that I feel like you don't have my back and that you may throw me under the bus at any moment, I am reluctant to work with you. A lot of what I post in this forum (contrary to the belief of some that I am just an "anti-theist bigot" is me trying to get you to see where I come from. To get you to see what I think is important. To get you to see how I see the world. To get you to see what is important to me. And rather than having a move toward trying to get to understand that, I just get confirmation that you don't have my back.
So, tl;dr?, if you want me to work with you on issues, you need to let me know you have my back. You haven't done so to this point.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)This is how you feel and you have the right to feel that way. We disagree on several things like tax-exempt status for houses of worship and the role of religion, but we agree on much more in politics.
If you feel we don't have your back then that is your pov. Sometimes as a NYer I forget that I think all other areas in the country are like us but they are not. Atheists in this nation do suffer discrimination in many ways. That should not be denied.
I hope you do understand we have our complaints as well about some of the athiests in the group. I can go through a list of complaints but I won't. Suffice it to say I have issues trusting some of the athiests here and IRL and I don't always feel some of you have our back either. I say some not all.
Life is a two way street.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)there are less than a handful that I think I would never get along with IRL. You aren't on that list, FWIW.
I realize believers have their complaints about atheists. And I'm fine with that. But what prompted this post is what others have said in here that we should just stop the bickering, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya. That isn't going to happen until we trust each other. I support your right to believe whatever you wish. You can go to whatever church you want and praise your god whenever you want. We just need a much more clear line of separation.
And do you realize that you don't need us to have your backs? You have the privilege in this regard. Society has your back. Though I think we have your back more than you may realize.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It is not always easy to give your opinion like this in this contentious room.
rug
(82,333 posts)Politically, I have your back. You may choose to take me at my word.
No meta.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I think this is a discussion that needs to be had that hasn't been.
I believe you that push-come-to-shove you would have the backs of progressive atheists. Do you realize that your rhetoric in here doesn't always reflect that and may put some level of question on that?
And I do get that atheists can be abrasive in here. But do you think it is a valid point that believers are the ones that need to develop the trust? That society ultimately has your back? That we live in a world where basically nobody seems to have our back? I believe you, like Justin, live in NYC, and I hope you realize that is a whole different universe as far as attitudes toward atheists than I and others live in daily.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)I hope people genuinely listen.