African American
Related: About this forumThom Hartman joins number of white progressives slamming those criticizing #BLM
LITERALLY calls DU out by name.Occupy, too many diarists at Daily Kos to count, Howard Dean, now Thom Hartmann. And I still have no doubt that Bernie himself will be on the list of white progressives calling out these disgusting tactics as well.
Do I expect this to make any difference? Not really. But it's good to see so many people calling these people out and reminding them that they are YET AGAIN on the wrong side of justice and of history.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Cha
(297,029 posts)handmade34
(22,756 posts)BainsBane
(53,026 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Critics of BLM sound like Nixon's 'law and order' campaign. And yes, that shows my age, but it's too close, IMO.
sheshe2
(83,708 posts)Dayum.
Tell it!
KnR!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It seemed he started with, "Oh come on! "; then, as he talked further, seem to become pissed that he had to explain it to a "progressive".
sheshe2
(83,708 posts)Tell it Thom. Yes you could see and hear the anger build, 1SBM.
Cha
(297,029 posts)ending with..
"..They're SICK AND TIED OF BEING SHOT AT!"
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I know he has an account here that posts for his show, but I didn't think he really read much here. That was on point.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)sheshe2
(83,708 posts)Excuse my language....
Shit yes!!!!
Boom!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Sometimes I dislike this habit of board owners of letting things just fly. Conflict is healthy, but this last weekend was insanely ugly. Notably so.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)It will be their record and their reputation for the world to see. No doubt he was referring to how DU is connected to google. It never forgets anything. Every crummy thing stays in cyberspace forever.
JI7
(89,244 posts)by a gay black man that supports Sanders . many don't realize that those most hurt by a lot of the anti blm stuff are minorities who are supporting Sanders.
Number23
(24,544 posts)It's about Black Lives Matter. Beginning and end. Period.
And now that this board has been overflowing with racist idiocy for DAYS now, there's no putting that cat back in that bag.
Alot of minority Sanders supporters have been in agony over this mess. This is why bravenak went back to undecided. This is why heaven05 left. This is why ncb40 has been in threads talking about how horrible all of this is. They should not have to choose between a candidate they passionately support and whose policies they agree with and the unhinged racist trolling of so many of that candidates supporters.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)standing next to another Black woman at the next Bernie rally.
While we are told all about allies, and whatnot ... they, no doubt, will be treated with the same suspicion, as Black folks in a fine jewelry store.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)get vetted extra by security and stared and/or talked about by the audience. And it won't just be at his upcoming rallies--now Jeb's crowd might be more antsy around BW as their boy got heckled. BLM showed that it'll go anywhere to get their point across, but his crowd acted even more stupid than Bernie's Seattle crowd, shouting "White Lives Matter" (as if they don't know what the BLM movement is about).
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)But, there HAS been progress made within the minds and hearts of some white progressives. I've seen it here. People have apologized and made commitments to support BLM after an initial emotional reaction that might have been based on a lack of understanding. Reading the testimonies of people involved in the BLM movement has changed the minds of many liberals and progressives that didn't understand them initially. I mean, how could it not (if they are truly liberally minded and possess empathy that is)?
This movement IS needed and it can be a success if it can continue to increase support, understanding, and solidarity with white progressives. We need each other, and all of us will have brighter futures if we can stand together and fight for each other.
For white progressives that includes PASSIONATELY fighting to radically overhaul our justice system and fighting to end institutionalized racism. Now is the time for that. We shouldn't tolerate it any longer.
I do believe that black people (and other racial minorities) will need the support of white people to end this unjust system, and I also believe that it will eventually and firstly come from white progressives (in sizable numbers) and then white moderates. I feel that day and time is coming soon where we DEMAND it happen. Together.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Bernie supporters given you heartburn?" by the usual, tired suspects.
I have seen precious little growth or movement on this issue from white people. At least not here on DU. And judging by the number of simultaneously pissed off and mocking blog entries and articles from black people, I don't think they're seeing much movement either.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)in the past few weeks, I'm feeling "heartbern", but not in a good way. A lot of them on this site and online in general come across as bullies as they try to not only run off people who don't see things 100% eye to eye with them, but also drown out serious criticisms about their candidate's apparent uncomfortability discussing race, and there is so much dogma coming from them especially about automatically labeling BLM protesters as Hillary/GOP operatives, there's the rudeness of the audience when the girls were speaking, and one nut shouted "tase them" while another shouted "how dare you call me racist!". I'm sure BS is a decent man, but to echo what you said, a person shouldn't have to think twice about supporting someone because of the behavior of his/her supporters. So far, I haven't seen supporters of the other primary candidates act nearly as intense as his. He has to put them in check before it's too late and he loses even more would-be supporters.
Number23
(24,544 posts)I have said that same thing for over a month now. He needs to do an intervention with his supporters, similar to what John McCain had to when his supporters kept screaming for Obama's birth certificate and calling him a terrorist.
Bernie has got to say something. And I believe that he will. I honestly do. I cannot see someone who touts their strong positions on fairness and social justice doing nothing while this goes on. I genuinely believe that he is a good and honorable man and he will step up and do something about this.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)Instead of someone else having to tell them to chill, it would be the man who they trust the most, and by him speaking out, he'd do damage control when it comes to Black Democrats, get positive press, and be seen more as presidential and as leadership material.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Right now, Bernie has been looking far from presidential on this matter. Taking this matter into his own hands will improve his standing so much with black people.
Because his standing in minority communities right now is nil. So many of his clueless supporters think that we can be screamed and browbeated into supporting him. If he told them loudly and openly to knock it the hell off, the black folks that do support him can go and say "see? I told you he was the bomb" and more black folks would believe them.
McCain got alot of grudging respect when he finally let his supporters know he couldn't deal with their tactics anymore. Bernie would get the same. He'd increase his minority support. He may lose some of his current white support (and maybe that's been one of the reasons he hasn't said anything yet) but he has to realize that by branching out to to minorities and improving the quality of his white support, he's branching into the only way that leads to the White House.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)I didn't like that the young women shoved others on the stage I thought they could have been calmer. I guess it is a little difficult to be calm when it has been a year since Michael Brown. Still there are shootings and violence by our police on poc almost daily, yet nothing has been done. So there will be no mocking from me only deep sadness. What bothers me is it took me too long to come to this understanding because it does affect me personally. I have a beautiful grandson and great granddaughter who are bi-racial and they will not be little forever.
Number23
(24,544 posts)whisper.
It's racism that to this day, sees unarmed black people getting slaughtered by cops and the first response is "well, what did they do to deserve it?" It's racism that allows the media to portray black victims as criminals. There have been countless articles written on how white murder SUSPECTS get treated better in media portrayals than black murder VICTIMS.
This is entrenched. It's not going away any time soon and it certainly won't go away if people immediately knee jerk into defensive, closed minded stupidity whenever people try to draw attention to the issue. I am glad that you changed your mind. The problem is that alot of white people don't have biracial grandchildren or family members and it is so easy for them to shut all of this out or shout it down because it doesn't affect anyone they care about.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)I have stood up before the grand babies arrived regarding this injustice and will continue to do so. I have been protesting one injustice or another since the Vietnam War. The reason I disagreed with their tactics (not that they protested) because at first glance I perceived it as violent when in reality it was frustration. The knee-jerking will happen less often among those of us who really care and have for a long time. My sister and I have been speaking against prisons for profit and the so called drug war since they first came on the scene. We both realized a long time ago that AA's were unjustly targets of these two things. Mandatory sentences is another thing that affects poc and women (believe it or not) more harshly than white males.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Thanks JI7.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)so it is safe to assume he is onboard with BLM. meanwhile...i will continue to call out the disgusting tactics of the activists in Seattle, as other black progressives have.
Cha
(297,029 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=21760
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)What was so disgusting about BLM's tactics? Was it the disruption ... or, that they disrupted Bernie?
freshwest
(53,661 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)That's exactly what would happen around here!
stone space
(6,498 posts)Dems2002
(509 posts)Honestly, I am astonished by the strength and brilliance of these young activists. What they are achieving in a short time is incredible. Not just forcing their way into a conversation that has actively sidelined them for two generations, but taking their message into the heart of the progressive movement.
It is so easily to point to folks waiving a confederate flag and say racist. You know what I see all of the time from my republican family members? A furious desire to point the finger at Democrats. No one likes the label. But as long as a bunch of white people are pointing fingers at each other for being the problem, none of us are spending any time at all pulling the damn plank out of our own eyes.
I expect some republicans to take a really long time to do this. But I really hope Progressives and shut up and start leading by example. I am not surprised, but I am ashamed. We need to do better. We need to recognize that these passionate activists are LEADING an uprising. And this is our moment to decide the side we are on. Have we all become craven cowards? Have we drunk the collective kool aide and actually believe the ridiculous notion that protests and disruptions don't work? Of course they work. They are already working for BLM.
Let us join them. Not at the front, but where we belong. At the back, mostly to listen, to link arms and to speak to our fellow white progressive friends who are still talking out of their asses.
We can do better.
Number23
(24,544 posts)We are always talking about how so many white people only want to blame OTHER white people for racism. Conservatives if you're a Democrat, Democrat if you're a conservative. Southerners. Religious. People from small towns etc. etc. etc.
But black folks know and have always know that this particular trait can come from anywhere, even from those who wail the loudest about how they can't be racist because they are "liberals" or are oppressed themselves. We have been talking alot in this forum about the comments from MLK and Malcolm on white liberals and moderates. These two men knew this as well. And it's one of the reasons they railed against white liberals almost as much as white conservatives. And that is simply the truth of the matter.
I agree completely. Welcome to the AA forum, Dems2002.
uponit7771
(90,323 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Because he has a good point. I'm not sure that Marissa Johnson was fighting for BLM as much as for her own issues, but for the most part, this should not reflect on BLM and they absolutely have the right to get the much needed "attention" for their movement.
Now, my complaint about the Washington event was the nasty names Marissa started calling everyone, and Bernie too. I don't see how that is getting the "movement" the right kind of attention. It pissed off a lot of people who should be on their side. But the protesting for BLM is still valid and as I said in another post, I'm still glad it happened because it got Sanders updating his web site with racial justice as one of his "issues" and it also got him to hire Symone Sanders for his press secretary. So, even though I'm not crazy about the way Marissa did her thing, I'm still glad it happened.
And thank you Thom for speaking out on this.
Cha
(297,029 posts)Hartmann says.. that's a reflexive white person's response.
"stop looking for hidden motives.."
ismnotwasm
(41,971 posts)As has been pointed out by me and others--Seattle has been under tension between police and POC for years (shot a friend of mine dead) and the police Department was investigated by the Feds for brutality.
And this is a "liberal" city. Thousands of adoring fans showed up for Sanders rally. The event that was 'disrupted' wasn't even his event--he was there to speak. Seattle is the city of the WTO protests. Seattle is a city of dozens of protests--from immigration reform to how the homeless are treated. We've been known to 'disrupt' traffic. Hang signs, chant, march. We had occupy. We've had tent cities. We have sit ins. We have anarchists.
What happened with Sanders shouldn't even be a surprise, and it shouldn't require so much explanation, but none so deaf who will not hear.
And "reflexive white person response" Hartman nails it.
Number23
(24,544 posts)And BumRushDaShow posted a link that showed this same crowd tripping over themselves to condemn #BLM for their protests cooing and ooohing over people who disrupted talks on the TPP.
ismnotwasm
(41,971 posts)I'll never get over this shit. It started with the "social justice vs economic justice" crap and devolved from there. There were people who refused to listen and a whole bunch who STILL refuse to listen. Despite historical context, despite the fact that people protest all kinds of things all the time. I've seen freeways blocked and traffic screwed up for hours that got maybe a few hours of negative attention. Nothing like this. Days and days of ugliness.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)do is understand the word hypocrite & how they are one for this bullshit but it's pointless.
Cha
(297,029 posts)yes, I love that part as well as the whole thing.. ".. looking for hidden motives is a reflexive white person's response."
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)One of the basic ideals of the Occupy movement was that a person should be allowed to speak in his/her turn. I agree very much with BLM's right to protest and with the cause it stands for. But I object to any group that protests so as to completely silence others. That is the method of fascists. Discussion. Dialogue. Taking your turn. Great.
But shutting off a speaker who is scheduled to speak. No. And that is pretty much what was done to O'Malley at Netroots Nation. (Bernie's speech was delayed by the lengthy demonstration but he managed to speak. O'Malley was pretty much silenced, could only get in very little of his scheduled statement.)
I think that Bernie Sanders handled the BLM issue very well in his Los Angeles rally. And the Sanders supporters wildly supported the BLM agenda and points presented by Symone Sanders.
I still maintain that it was not necessary for BLM to present itself as somehow opposing or needing to force its way on the stage at Netroots Nation and the Seattle Sanders presentation. Sanders has supported the rights of African-Americans since the 1960s, has never given up that support, and it was ignorant on the part of the leadership of BLM to think they needed to force their way on the stage to make it look like Bernie Sanders opposed them. Just a cheap trick.
I would also like to add that I and many other white people like me, social workers, nurses, lawyers, teachers, ministers, people in helping professions, have worked and sacrificed to further the interests of Black people. We have visited prisons, hospitals, represented and advocated for racial justice and the BLM movement and many DJUers insult the work that we have tirelessly done for Black people with their accusation that all white people are racists.
I wish they could know the sacrifices that my family has made for generations to support racial equality, the end of slavery and equal justice. (Done for religious reasons because my family was Methodist and John Wesley strongly opposed slavery.)
I will never forget the impression that my great-grandfather made on me. He accompanied his father when is father, who had fled Germany after the Revolution of 1848 there, joined the Union army to fight against slavery. My great-grandfather, still officially a boy and not recognized as a soldier ran reconnaissance and caught a bullet in his leg in the process. He carried the burden of that injury until he died at the age of 98 after doing the hard work of a farmer for most of his life.
On the other side of my family, my mother still had the fragment of correspondence between one of my ancestors and his son. The son was fighting in the Civil War and had gone AWOL saying he did not want to die just to free the slaves. My ancestor, the father of that AWOL soldier wrote back and told his son that he had to go back and fight. The son died in the Civil War. Imagine the pain the father felt having told his son to go back and fight against slavery when he learned of his son's death. White Union soldiers died, many, many of them, to free black people from slavery. While the debt owed by white people for the crime of slavery is great, the debt owed by black people for the deaths of Union soldiers who lost their lives for the Union and to free the slaves is also great and should not be forgotten. When a young man dies to improve the life of someone he has never met, of a race he has perhaps only glimpsed because of his father's abhorrence of slavery, those who benefited from that death should certainly respect it.
And that is just one of the members of my family, all white, who joined the struggle to rid our country of its racism and hate and replace it with tolerance, acceptance and love. Many white families, many white Americans living today have family histories like mine.
That is why I am personally troubled by the BLM's action in silencing Bernie Sanders and other politicians who have throughout their lives stood for civil rights, stood for racial justice and stood for economic justice on top of that. These advocates for equality took chances, were criticized, in some cases ostracized and gained nothing from their efforts for themselves.
That is why I think that the BLM movement and the Black movement in general needs to understand that they have many allies in the white community and that they have not come as far as they have without the hard work, sacrifices and support of many in the white community.
None of us ever achieve our dreams all by ourselves. We need community. The BLM movement needs to stop confronting, insulting and alienating their friends and rather continue to reach out to that part of the white community that it can rely on for support. We cannot, the BLM cannot, women cannot, the LGBT community cannot, families cannot change this nation if we offend and oppose each other. We have to work together.
I assure you that is very true that I, a woman who is privileged to be white and to come from a family that has been educated for at least a couple of generations, cannot know what it is to be Black, ostracized and hated only for the color of my skin. But because I am a woman, because I have known poverty, because I have known fear, because I have known being disregarded, because I know what it is to be discriminated against in the workplace as a woman and as a worker over the age of 50, and because I have visited prisons and juvenile halls and courts and advocated for justice for all, I do feel that I am part of the solution and at least not a major part of the problem, and I deserve more respect for my contributions throughout my life to justice than the BLMers would give me.
I understand that in the movie, Selma, Lyndon B. Johnson's role in signing the Civil Rights Act was misrepresented. Excuse me. But one of the reasons he dared not run for a second full term of his own in office was the fact that he knew he could not win thanks to his signature on that Act. He knew he had lost the South for generations with that one signature. His signing that bill was an act of courage and self-sacrifice. To see black people rewrite history to omit that act of courage is very troubling.
Equal rights including ending police brutality, profiling and all discrimination is one of the top priorities for America right now.
But there are also other pressing problems. Wealth disparity and our trade policies that export jobs and with those jobs, opportunities, mean disaster for people of all races in America. That is also a top priority. Hillary Clinton talks the talk on economic justice, but she and Bill have not walked the walk on it. Homelessness is an epidemic that is hitting all races and age groups but is most troubling as it affects the very young and the very old.
We need to work together to solve not just the problem of racism but all the problems that like racism have worsened since the advent of Reaganism.
Bernie is our best bet for really getting action and not just promises to solve these problems. It is pitiful to see a group of people with no real grasp of the complex history of their own s, of their own struggle, of the history of their own movement from slavery to segregation to now the struggle for equality before the law, disowning and insulting their most reliable supporters among white people.
The BLM needs to review the history of the struggle to end slavery and segregation if it is to now end police brutality and a sick prison and judicial system. We none of us can go it alone. Women cannot achieve equal pay without the support of men. Blacks cannot achieve it or equality in the rest of their lives without the support of white people. I understand the impatience. I am impatient too.
But the suppression of voting, the police brutality, all of the racism can only be ended if we get solidarity that surpasses the limits of our own race and interests and get a LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS. It can be done, but we have to win more seats in the South. We have to win more seats in the Middle West, and we have to get our liberal voters out in the mid-term elections.
And if we are to get more voter support in elections, we have to be the party that represents the interests and speaks to the issues of more voters in those elections. The uniting issues before the American people are the economic issues, the issues of jobs, of the disparity in wealth, of a financial sector that has run amok and does not support the real economy in which we all live and strive to survive. Those are issues that unite voters. Those are the issues that can help us win support in the Midwest where we have lost it, in the South where we have lost it.
We cannot choose between advocating on economic issues or on justice issues because we cannot have justice when we have great economic hopelessness, despair and disparity in wealth. We cannot have economic justice without racial justice. We cannot have racial justice without economic justice. That is because we Democrats cannot win elections if we choose to advocate only for either racial OR economic justice. To get enough voters behind us, we have to advocate and work hard to achieve both racial and economic justice.
It's great that Black people voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. I worked hard and voted for him too. But we have to get Black voters registered and voting in the Mid-terms. And there is no excuse for any eligible Black voter to stay at home on any election day. Don't blame white people for the repression if you can't get out and vote every election. That means local elections: your school board, your city council, your state representatives. Of course, we also need to run better candidates who will support equal rights. (And here in California, racial justice and voting involve immigrants and Hispanic people who need also to get out and vote even in mid-terms.]
This is my rant. When I criticize BLM, I am speaking as a white woman who at 72 has struggled with and for Black people in the trenches for many years, at times full-time and for the poorest, lending my skills, my intelligence and my energy to their good and the good of society as I understand it. I have not exclusively advocated and worked for equality but I can say that my work especially for Black homeless men was major in my life. And I do not think it is right or honest for young Black kids to disrespect and disregard my support for their community and their future or the support that Bernie and other people have given just because their supporters are white. It is just wrong.
So that is my emotional reply to the criticism. We have to support each other. And the history of Black liberation is not one in which Black people struggled alone. A lot of white people paid the price and worked hard for equality. That should not be ignored or forgotten.
Thanks for hearing me out.
It's obvious you poured your heart out here. Obviously put alot of thought into your post.
And I'd be lying if I said that I'd read all of it. And that bit there is why I won't read more. You may think that statement is benign but I don't at all.
Cha
(297,029 posts)doesn't get it.
Did she not listen to Thom Hartmann?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Please read my post #64. It's long, but it puts the needed strategy in historical perspective.
We can't change society to make it safe for Black people unless we elect a majority of very liberal people to Congress and get a strong fighter for liberal policies, not just with regard to race but also economic and environmental policies in the White House.
Middle-of-the-roaders like Hillary are just not going to fight and do what is needed, not for Blacks, not for the poor, not for the environment.
The thing I like about BLM is that they are willing to stand up and say what they think. I like the listing of the names. That is effective.
What I don't like is that they are embarrassing their friends. The truth is that a minority of white people have lost their lives and have sacrificed for the rights of Black people.
We would not have had a Civil Rights Act or even Brown v. Board of Education without liberal majorities on the Supreme Court and in Congress. So the first priority of the BLM movement needs to be, from a strategic point of view, getting really liberal people elected to Congress and to the White House. Third Wayers are not going to fight on any of these issues. They are defeatists from the get-go.
My beef with BLM is about the strategy. Black people are not yet the majority. They have to have support from Hispanics, whites and others if they are to win the rights and protection they need. That's just reality. Sorry. Don't shoot the messenger. That's all I am. I am just stating the obvious truth.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)are getting murdered in the streets.
I know you're searching for some answers. Stop blaming black people. That's your answer.
Cha
(297,029 posts)and "understand". Not #BlackLivesMatters or their supporters.. it's all on you.
".. the BLM movement and the Black movement in general needs to understand.. .. " NO.
"Obviously put alot of thought into your post. "
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I have no quarrel with BLM's message. I have a huge argument about their strategy.
See my posts please. History shows us that when we have a strong very liberal coalition in the Congress and in the White House and long enough to control the Supreme Court, we can pass the kinds of legislation we need to achieve racial justice as well as our other goals.
If we on the left are divided, we achieve nothing. That has been the situation since Reagan was elected in 1980.
The missing component in the liberal coalition we need has been working people, the people who need economic justice.
No part of our liberal coalition can go it alone or drop out of the coalition. We need all of us working together to improve all of our lives.
No one group in our coalition is strong enough to go it alone or to offend others in the coalition.
It is interesting to me that I get such a strong reaction against me when I talk about the contributions that white people made to end slavery and to promote Black rights. Very interesting. Because it is the truth. And because what I am saying supports my belief that we cannot any of us, go it alone. It isn't women against Blacks. It isn't Blacks against economic justice. All of the components of our coalition have to be marching with all other components if we are to achieve our goals.
To the extent that BLMs thinks it can change police brutality without a lot of white help, well, what can I say?
Same for environmentalists. Can't change things without a strong liberal majority in Congress plus a strong liberal in the White House. Just won't work.
And it is mostly in the South and in the Midwest where any conservative idiot can win in the ballot box. So it is issues that win in those areas that we need to support while still supporting the equal rights and justice reform issues. We can do it if we work together. But if one of the groups that forms our coalition opts out of supporting the rest, that group will pull everybody down, and no one will get anywhere.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)That is the only paragraph that stood out to me. There was no need to read further.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)It is up to the candidate to win the support of any constituency / it is not up to the constituency to win the support of a candidate.
The particular constituency gets to decide whether a candidate has a message that resonates with them (in this case black people and all PoC) .... its not up to people outside a group (in this case white folk) to determine that a candidate's message SHOULD resonate with them.
If Sanders wants the votes of PoC he needs to earn it (find a message that connects with PoC) .... funny thing is PoC will decide for themselves when and if that happens.
People fighting for their rights (and very lives) don't need to confer with me or you (or anyone else) on the tactics they deem necessary and right.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)that supported the rights of people of color were decided by courts of 9 justices, 8 white and one lone Black.
Those white justices were relatively liberal and were appointed by relatively liberal presidents including the Republican, Dwight Eisenhower. It was Eisenhower, a white president and not ultra-liberal president, who enforced Brown v. Board of Education in Little Rock.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_v._Board_of_Education
True, Black people, supported by white activists, demonstrated non-violently but persistently for civil rights under the direction of Martin Luther King, supported by a lot of liberals including Robert F. Kennedy, Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon B. Johnson. But their movement would have failed had it not been for the fact that we had a liberal majority in Congress that was elected thanks to the liberal ECONOMIC POLICIES of FDR and subsequent presidents prior to passage of the Civil Rights Act.
The Civil Rights Act was passed by a majority including many white members of Congress with no support to speak of from white Southerners. It took a president who was liberal on both social and economic issues, Lyndon B. Johnson, to sign the Civil Rights Act.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
All of these decisions and laws were decided or passed by relatively safe Democratic majorities in the Supreme Court and Congress that were won in a nation that had a strong industrial base, strong unions and an liberal economic policiies.
The tide against liberal majorities in Congress and the Supreme Court date back to the signing of the Civil Rights Act and the Viet Nam War. Following the signing of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, Goldwater won five states in the South in the presidential election.
n 1968, Nixon ran on the Southern Strategy,, which was opposed to Black equality at the most elementary level. He won the South, and the South which had prior to the Civil Rights Act voted Democratic thanks in great part to FDR's economic policies.
Since the 1968 election of Nixon, we have elected only three Democratic presidents, two of whom were from the South. The third was a Black president. Thanks to our failure to elect sufficient numbers of liberal Democrats, regardless of race, to Congress, we are unable to pass legislation either on important economic issues, voting rights or justice for Black people on the streets, in their contact with the police and in general. Really vital law enforcement reform as well as the passage of environmental legislation, the repeal of damaging trade agreements and the passage of trade agreements that support the rights of humans and not corporations, as well as domestic economic reform will only be possible when we have both a very liberal president AND VERY A VERY LIBERAL MAJORITY IN CONGRESS AND ON THE SUPREME COURT.
So, no, we don't get to vote for just whomever we want to vote for if we want to change our country. Certainly, Obama's administration is proof of that. I like Obama very much, but he has not been able to make the changes he probably wants to make because he has not had the support of a liberal Congress. To get a liberal Congress, voters have to think strategically. You have to choose candidates who are very liberal but who know how to appeal to a very broad base of voters and to attract new voters to the polls. Describes Bernie Sanders to a tee.
. . . .
It was FDR's economic policies that improved the lives of white and Black Americans, white Americans more than Black Americans, but ultimately, all Americans that made it possible to have a majority in Congress that would pass the Civil Rights Act, and other legislation that was necessary to improve the lives of Black people.
Today, minorities are potentially a larger portion of the electorate in the past, but in spite of the urgency and importance of Black issues including Black Lives Matter, judging from the past, especially our losses in 2014, we Democrats cannot expect to elect a majority in the Congress unless we all work together.
To gain votes and to get out the votes of all Democrats in the US we have to focus on both equality and justice issues and above all environmental issues, because there will be very little for any of us to argue about if we continue to destroy our environment at the current rate: economic equality and justice, racial equality and justice, gender equality and justice, environmental equality and justice. All of these issues.
We will not succeed in one area without succeeding in all of them.
We cannot win elections if we focus only or overwhelmingly on racial and gender issues and do not focus also on economic and environmental issues. The majority, thus far, is just not there if we narrow our focus.
It is not a choice between these issues. We have to choose all of them.
If Black people want to continue the current situation in which the federal government does not have the legal authority to do much about the police brutality at the local level, they cannot make the mistake that the union members made in 1980. They need to support the truest, strongest progressives in the country. In the presidential elections, that means voting for Bernie Sanders.
If Black people or union members vote for right-wing or our middle-of-the-road, slow-to-move-toward justice candidate, Hillary Clinton, we will lose in the general election.
It's our failure to emphasize and explain the need for economic justice that ended the Democratic majority in Congress. We need to return to emphasis on economic issues if we are to have a strategy that will elect enough truly liberal Democrats to Congress to make progress on environmental and most of all on racial issues.
We are nearing a time when people of color will have a majority. I think we may already be there in California. That's great. But we aren't there in many states including mid-western states. The political reality is that we need liberal members of Congress from many states including Southern states. We can't wait until people of color are in the majority in enough states to elect a strongly Democratic Congress.
BLM is absolutely right on their issues, but from what I can tell, they are wrong on electoral strategy. They have to work with white liberals to get what they want. Politics is a matter of mutual support,, of coalitions. I know that Black DUers don't like to hear this, but we have to work together, and we need to support liberal Democrats who will go further on justice issues, racial, economic and especially environmental than the Carter, the Clintons and Obama have gone.
That's the reality. It may not be fair, but it is the reality. Think about it.
Until we get a strong, strong liberal majority in Congress, the racial injustice in police departments and neighborhoods is in the control of local authorities. The president can't do much about it.
So the strategy to achieve racial justice and to stop the killings of Black people by law enforcement has to be to elect a strongly liberal, a truly liberal majority to Congress as well as a truly liberal president.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Possibly you are asserting that black voters need to appeal to Sanders and NOT the idea that it is Sander's job to appeal to PoC.
I have no idea what your rambling is about
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)My rambling is about the fact that the reason the movement for African-American rights was successful to the extent that it was in the past is that we had a strong liberal coalition in Congress and a president in the White House (actually two -- Eisenhower and LBJ) who were willing and able (with the support of a majority of liberals in the Supreme Court and in Congress) to pass and enforce decisions and laws that moved African-American rights forward.
I agree totally with the justice stance of BLM. I like the reading of the names. That should be done at very Democratic rally this year.
But I think that the strategy of further dividing the liberal coalition that made Brown v. Board of Education and the Civil Rights Act, the coalition that was divided by passage of the Civil Rights Act is weakened. And BLM threatens to weaken it.
What brought that coalition in the 1950s and 1960s together was the emphasis of FDR and LBJ on economic justice.
The BLM movement is right that their cause is urgent. But to improve things, we have to have a very strong liberal majority in the nation. And we can't get that unless we speak to the economic misery of so many Americans of all races. Thus, our coalition must be strong and it must be built on the basis of economic as well as social and environmental justice.
I'm talking strategy. It's complicated. But it is important.
Spazito
(50,232 posts)'Don't demand, ask nicely and make sure you add a thank you if offered a damp cloth to soothe the wounds caused by us in the first place. I support BLM but only if they act in a way that is in accordance with what I believe is best.'
Yikes....just Yikes.
Number23
(24,544 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I've been watching this issue and dealing with it all my life. How do you change the mind of a racist? I have not been able to figure it out.
The only thing I know to do is to pass laws that protect Black people from police use of excessive force and profiling and from laws that prevent Black people from voting.
What do you suggest?
What are the alternatives?
Just yelling at people? Preventing people who are trying to be on your side from speaking?
What do you propose?
Spazito
(50,232 posts)It is to call attention to the urgent need for social justice policies that work to negate the horrid and life threatening actions racists and their ilk can currently practice at will in the areas of law, justice, employment, banking, mortgages, education and the list goes on.
Change doesn't come about with a 'Please may I...', it comes from demands using protests, votes, boycotts, all the tactics one can use barring violence to force change.
Candidates running for political office are the ones, under the current system, that can best push those policy changes forward so, yes, if yelling at them to CARE is needed, it should be done.
ismnotwasm
(41,971 posts)Why do you think we NEEDED a civil rights act? And while you're at it reading dissents is always valuable input. Also--What was happening in that time in history--you think the judges voted that because they were white?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the courts. I know very well why we NEEDED civil rights act. And I also know that we have to work together if we are to address the issues that are so urgent and tha BLM is trying to bring to our attention.
Alienating your allies is not the way you get things done. You seek out allies, enlist them in your cause and work together to achieve what NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW.
If we are to address BLM's issues -- the killings, the brutality against Black people, the huge numbers of Black people in jail -- then we have to address why it is that Wall Street can make more money investing in new prisons and jails than in education and decent housing for low-income Americans.
Cause we won't end the birth to prison cycle until we take the profit out of it. And that is an economic issue. Just one of many that is behind the crisis that BLM is pointing to.
I have not figured out how Black people can change the stereotyping and hatred that causes the injustice. But I haven't heard a single suggestion from any person on DU about how to change that either. If you have any ideas, let me know. Just screaming and yelling at white people probably won't do much. It may get sympathy at some levels from people who don't stereotype in the first place, but it is not going to persuade the racists to change their views. I have not been able to think of any way to do that yet. Have you?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And I think even Sen. Sanders would disagree with you placing his personal feelings above the urgent concerns of others, who have far more skin in the game than he personally does - or you or I do, for that matter.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I had this exact same conversation with her last month when she made the extraordinary statement in GD that It's hard for Black people to understand what is obvious to white progressives: that economic issues are intrinsically tied to racism.
and she whined there about no one helping her with suggestions. I took her at her word out there and came up with several, which she never responded to. She either ignored me, or she's looking for reactions on the same bingo card points repeated over and over. If someone wants her back, let me know!
Number23
(24,544 posts)Yes.
The particular constituency gets to decide whether a candidate has a message that resonates with them
Yes.
People fighting for their rights (and very lives) don't need to confer with me or you (or anyone else) on the tactics they deem necessary and right.
An absolutely wonderful post. Thank you for this.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,729 posts)sheshe2
(83,708 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)delivering this kind of diatribe to a roomful of people of color. She's a Johnny come lately on race issues, she watches PBS specials on racism and emails me late in the night because the horror of what is happening today and in history keep her awake at night.
She raised me never to demand thanks or rewards for anything I might do for anyone. Right action is something you do because it's the right thing to do.
Honestly. I can't imagine what you thought your purpose in here was. This post sounds exactly like Miss Millie.
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)This poster thought EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE when Sturtz interrupted Michelle Obama.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022950046#post185
Here's my favorite part...
" snip)To appear and be heard is the right of every American. And if politicians can't respect that right, and deal with people who have no adequate way to communicate with them other than interrupting a speech, maybe they have chosen the wrong profession."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Talk about eloquently spoken...it is, isn't it? Excellent advice! Remember our objections...but, Michelle Obama isn't an elected official...but, but...
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I hope you don't get a hide. I'm trying to phrase this so I don't either--lots of interesting responses in that thread by posters who are now sporting avatars that they weren't back then, of a certain candidate who apparently should never never be interrupted.
Yes, lots of people were saying exactly the opposite. Good find.
I think we need to have another block party in this forum here soon.
ismnotwasm
(41,971 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,729 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)It was okay when it was the First Lady? Hmmmm. . .
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)scream and yell about too little being done
Black people did not achieve the rights they have on their own all by themselves. A lot of white people helped a great deal. That's the honest truth.
And it is time that Black people get realistic about the strategy for 2016 and start identifying and working with white people who are on their side.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)This is the first and last warning. If you post in here again, I will block you from this forum.
It is the disappointment of one who has worked in the trenches and then has to watch other people
scream and yell about too little being done
Black people did not achieve the rights they have on their own all by themselves. A lot of white people helped a great deal. That's the honest truth.
And it is time that Black people get realistic about the strategy for 2016 and start identifying and working with white people who are on their side.
Edit, you are still posting, even 10 minutes after I posted this to you. I am blocking you.
WIProgressive88
(314 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)But will more than likely use it to get sympathy and claim victimhood and persecution by the black forum and the black posters here.
Not that she would be the first (or the last) person to do that.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Almost anyone will tell you that that's no way to be an ally.
ismnotwasm
(41,971 posts)And thanks to countless sacrifices up to and including getting murdered of Black people and white ally's -- but mostly Black peoples, I don't have to be anything but culturally competent. I'm sure Black folks don't want to hear the "after all I've done for you" argument, just as I'm sure that wasn't your intent. Yet that argument keeps appearing, intent or no.
Try to understand how frustrating that is when you are terrified to let your 14 year old run to the convienence store for a soda.
Have conversations with Black friend or co-workers. I do. I don't need a cookie or anything to do this, I want to understand, as best as I'm able. Most of the people talk to are not particularly political, but the fear is there--always.
The oppressive, institutionalized poverty is there--or it's just around the corner. Where I work (this is a regional thing) there are far too few Black RN's for the population and far more "assistive personal" and this is a direct result of the lack of generational wealth combined--because of racism--along with racist lending and hiring practices (too complicated to go into for this post, or rather, too long of a history)
But the times they are a changin'. Black folks are getting educated, they are going for those jobs, they are cracking that white ceiling ~And~they are fighting for their brothers and sisters in prison, thier brothers and sisters nearly destroyed by that same institutionial racism, for their culture, for themselves-- they now have voices independent of whites -- ally's or no. They are seeing the way clear for their own future. You'll have to forgive me here, but Black people don't owe me a damn thing.
Yes I try to be an ally, I'm not always perfect, but I do that because it's a decent thing to be, and trying to be anything less is abhorrent to me. but I don't get to define what an ally is. What I get to do is listen, what I get to do is verify what my interpretation or a situation is not colored by my white filter. What I get to do is ask questions. What I get to do is an honor, and I hope, honorable.
Cha
(297,029 posts)about this.. said she and probably others had written letters. and I've been too occupied until nown to catch it..
Wow.. I was never that much into Thom Hartmann but I am really Impressed!
And, that guy that called in.. he didn't know what was about to hit him.. the shite hitting the fan.. just 'cause he tried to blame it on Hillary or Soros or palin or someother shit conspiracy smear job.
Damn this is like Gold.. have some anonymous internet person whine about Marissa Johnson and post Thom Hartman in their face!
#BlackLivesMatter!
[font size=21pt]"..They're SICK AND TIED OF BEING SHOT AT!"[/font]
Thank you.. Can't hear it enough!
Number23
(24,544 posts)That's probably why he mentioned DU by name.
I was hoping she had a copy of the email she sent him. I would have posted it in the thread!
Cha
(297,029 posts)I love this! And, this is coming from Thom Hartmann who is admired by those who need to hear it.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,729 posts)Well done.
Number23
(24,544 posts)folks here should have listened to her instead of breaking into a sweat trying to shut her up and run her off the site.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)j/k
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)After they heckle Bush, Rubio, Walker, Cruz, Christie and Trump 3 or 4 times each, then I'll take them seriously.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Please take them elsewhere. Thanks.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Continuing to make those patronizing, condescending & idiotic arguments reminds me of the person who keeps trying to get you to smell rotten milk. 'Do you think this has expired?' 'Does this smell bad?' 'Are you sure it smells bad?' 'Here, smell it again.'
'Aaaargh! It smells gross! Get that out of my face! Throw it in the garbage!'
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)A question that might be better asked is why haven't the people running the Sanders campaign helped him find his voice with PoC?
I don't believe Sanders is a racist and I do believe he cares ... the people running his campaign have NOT found a way to convey this and help him connect.
I would like to see him shake up his campaign staff and find people will help him get his message out more effectively!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If you are a Bernie supporter, you should be glad that Bernie isn't listening to you.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)and now that I get it, it's hilarious. Good one!
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)transcends any one candidate, any one speech. I'm not going to repeat this to you. It's a tired and lame question you're asking.
You either understand it or you don't. If you ask again I will use the 'that's as expired as rotten milk' defense.
Cha
(297,029 posts)BumRushDaShow
(128,710 posts)earlier this week that the other progressive talkers need to do this as he (Joe) was the only one pointing out the point of "protest" and "agitate".
In 1964, when Fannie Lou Hamer challenged the all-white delegation from Mississippi to the 1964 DNC convention on behalf of the Mississippi SNCC chapter, where she and others founded the "Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party" in order to push for recognition of the black population there (where then and now, the state has the largest percentage of blacks in the population - near 40%), all hell broke loose all the way up to the Johnson level, where Johnson declared her to be "that illiterate woman" (not unlike the nonsensical DU diatribes railing against "politically uninformed blacks" in reference to those who don't support or have any opinion about Sanders). By the 1968 election, the platform was changed to allow diversity while the bigots left in droves to populate the GOP.
On DU, these are the same ones who railed against Brittany Newsome, who climbed the flagpole in front of the SC State Capitol building and took down the Confederate flag. But guess what? The flag is gone and is being removed state by state around the country. Yet they cheered on Occupy for interrupting an Obama speech while protesting "banksters". BLM is protesting literal murders of our black men, women, and children by LEOs.
So good on the real "progressives" for calling out the hypocrisy.
Number23
(24,544 posts)"reminders" of how they felt when Michelle Obama was heckled or times when Obama was heckled.
What these people truly don't seem to understand is that the tired little "Gotcha!" game can ever so easily be played on both sides 'cause there were a bunch of people dancing like Cab Calloway every single time Obama got heckled and didn't see any problem with Michelle being heckled either, even though she wasn't running for any political office.
That was "principled disruption" but now suddenly it's "assault" from "subhumans" and "horrible" that Bernie -- someone who is running for president -- is being heckled about issues of LITERAL life or death.
Onpatrol just posted a comment in this very thread from someone who is criticizing #BLM but said, and I quote, "To appear and be heard is the right of every American." when Michelle was heckled at a private dinner. Like I said, that little "Gotcha" game can be eeeeeeasily played by both sides.
BumRushDaShow
(128,710 posts)But their narrow definition. But IMHO, some of those "principles", particularly when they result in harm to POC, were and still are nonsense.
Cha
(297,029 posts)either.
BumRushDaShow
(128,710 posts)Ain't that the truth!
Cha
(297,029 posts)Cha
(297,029 posts)Notice how many of the same ones who insisted "President Obama's feet be held to the Fire" for 7 years are now proclaiming BS's feet to be off limits, so to speak.
Thank you for the reminder of the history of Fannie Lou Hamer in Mississippi.
I missed that part about a segment of DU railing against Bree Newsome for climbing the flag pole.. but, it figures.
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)he went IN.
Spazito
(50,232 posts)I can only hope the many Sanders supporters who listen to his show will listen to him on this and not dismiss him because he is standing up for Black Lives Matter and their protests.
Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)But sadly, they'll blow him off too.
Masks have slipped and it's butt ugly under there.
BUT...
I'll join you in celebrating this moment!
calimary
(81,179 posts)Thom Hartmann gets it. I'm glad he said so. I just wish he had a broader audience. HE'S the one who should have the several-hundred radio stations broadcasting his show in drive time for maximum coverage. When then-KTLK here in L.A. ran Air America, and Thom Hartmann was on in the late mornings out here, I listened as often as I could. I felt like I was attending a master class - in whatever subject was the subject of the hour. It felt like going to grad school - how much one could learn from listening to this guy. LOVED his show.
And of course, it's long gone, as is KTLK. Now it's been given over to the Excrement in Broadcasting "network." And btw - their ratings are still in the basement. Switching to all-GOP smack-talk all the time didn't help them one bit.
William769
(55,144 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)I don't know what to do with this?
I'm just.
Number23
(24,544 posts)That is the funniest thing I've seen today.
sheshe2
(83,708 posts)I loved that movie!
Whoopie!
zappaman
(20,606 posts)"Hillary should say something!"
Fuckin' endless bullshit from a certain crowd here.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Pointing fingers of blame. It's so and so's fault! Man, I'd hate to work with some of these folks. They'd be the ones smiling in your face and stabbing you in the back. Or blaming you for their missing iPad that they accidentally left at home.
What's that expression? When you're pointing a finger there's four pointing back atcha? Something like that.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)You've got all these newly converted "liberals" acting like Teabaggers. That's what happens when you have Libertarians masquerading as Democrats. They forgot they weren't supposed to come off like racist Libertarian leaning Republicans anymore. There's nothing they have to say that I want to hear.
Most self-identifying "libertarians" actually subscribe to a bankrupt ideology. What if they all opened their eyes?
Edwin Lyngar
The rise of Bernie Sanders feels familiar to me. When I was a libertarian-leaning Republican, I was a delegate for Ron Paul in the 2008 Nevada State Convention. Pauls supporters were passionate if a bit nutty, but change seemed, if only for a moment, possible. The problem was that the ideology behind the candidate was bankrupt. The experience was the beginning of the end of my affiliation with simplistic libertarian blather and GOP politics altogether, but Pauls rise was driven by the same frustration and anger that is now propelling Sanders.
For too long, the anger and passion has been driven by Tea Party types and libertarians. Their solution seems to be throwing more gasoline on a trailer-park fire. Inequality? Cut taxes for the wealthy and implement a flat tax. Poverty? Eliminate the social safety net and cut food stamps. Those not actively making problems worse are obsessed with non-stories and fictitious scandals, featuring Benghazi, Jade Helm, e-mail servers or any of the other innumerable, invented outrages.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/20/why_libertarians_should_love_bernie_sanders/
Sorry #23, I know this is supposed to be a fig leaf offering, I'm just not impressed. What good is toning down the rhetoric, if the heart hasn't followed suit? I've seen an ugly outpouring here, over the past couple of weeks, that I'll never forget.
Number23
(24,544 posts)You and me both, girl.
But are you saying that you're not impressed with the libertarians pretending to be Dems or you're not impressed with what Hartmann said??
Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)his boy. I understand. But, like I said, the tone can change. The rhetoric can be toned down. But, if the heart doesn't follow suit, what's the point? They'll go to their graves believing that BLM is some Hillary/Koch Bros/DNC triple headed monster that's out to destroy BS.
WIProgressive88
(314 posts)I admit to having the same sort of "reflexive, white person response" that Thom speaks of before pausing to give things some thought and realizing how warped my initial emotional reaction really was.
I truly believe that Sen. Sanders cares deeply about the issues that BLM seeks to address, and I think that these protests have actually been beneficial to Bernie's campaign by forcing him to put a greater emphasis on racial justice. Sanders and BLM would seem to be natural allies in many ways, and it's sad that Bernie's efforts to better address racism are being counteracted by some of his most ardent supporters.
Bottom line: ALL politicians need to have their feet held to the fire, even the good ones like Bernie. #BlackLivesMatter, and Go Bernie.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Welcome to the AA forum, WIProgressive.
WIProgressive88
(314 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)endorse Hillary Clinton for president.
These people will never learn.
I also want to make sure that everyone has seen this video from a bi-racial Sanders supporter who thinks that Sanders should be saved -- from his own supporters. It's from a few months ago but sadly, judging by the behavior we're still seeing, still has as much relevance today.
Stellar
(5,644 posts)It was top notch.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I wish I were surprised.
Obviously, this particular endorsement really upset the BS supporters, eh?
Number23
(24,544 posts)crap that was posted on Lewis' Facebook page as a result of his endorsement. Chitown Kev pointed this all out to me as I don't read Kos very often.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=28918
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I didn't realize they were so venomous.
And this is from the same crowd that says endorsements don't matter!