I am confused about something..

[virginia mountainman]

Why is the press and gun control advocates making a big deal about the amount of ammunition James Holmes had in his apartment...

When he only fired a few boxes worth in his shooting spree?? (maybe 100 rounds, give or take a few)

Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever why some people are all worked up about it. Or are they simply pontificating to hear themselves?

[elleng]

1. Joking?

???

You MUST be kidding. mountainman doesn't understand that the 'amount of ammunition' might be USED somewhere/somehow? And he 'only fired a few boxes worth in his shooting spree.'

Appears you have no understanting about the huge social issues presented by the fact that an apparently 'insane' person could acquire, and might have used, all of these deadly items.

[krispos42]

2. I would suppose it's an indicator of future plans, or of mentality.

"Stockpiling" ammunition has connotations that are negatives. People expecting (and possibly hoping for) the end of civilization, civil war, famine, etc.

[virginia mountainman]

14. Heck, I stockpile ammo too..

I buy it when it's cheap... I have no idea how much I have here, but around 5,000 rounds would be a good guess.

I still have several Bandoleer of Turkish 8mm Mauser ammo, I bought for practicably a penny a round back in the 1990's

I also have a few belts left over of British MK VII .303 Vickers MG ammo, we would pull several rounds out of the cloth belts, when we would go shooting.

And we are not even talking about the 7.62 stuff I have packed away.

The ammo was dirt cheap, so why not stock up?

Not to mention lots and lots of reloading supplies.

WOW, look at what the Vickers belts are going for now!! I think I gave $30 for each one, still sealed in it's zinc lined wooden box!

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10694662/collectible-ammo-for-sale/foreign-military/-num-540-.303-vickers-machine-gun-web-belt-and-ammo

No more shooting of that stuff, its too valuable!!

[Starboard Tack]

43. You might want to step down from your mountain occasionally

and check out how the rest of the world thinks and operates. You buy ammo because it's "cheap"? Are there other things you buy just because they're cheap? Makes one wonder what you're preparing for.

[Glaug-Eldare]

44. I wait for deals, too

Ammunition is expensive -- I prefer to wait until I see a deal where I can buy a few thousand at a time and save on both quantity and shipping, then not have to be concerned about buying more ammo for a year or more. It's a significant cost savings, and for a shooter with no violent intent, there's no reason to ask themself, "do I really NEED three thousand rounds at once?" The question is "What's the discount if I buy four thousand instead?" Innocent people don't second-guess themselves when they buy controlled medicines before they get sick, innocent people don't second-guess themselves when they buy extra groceries to use a coupon, innocent people don't second-guess themselves when they buy extra model glue because it's on sale, and innocent people don't need to second-guess themselves when they see an opportunity to save tens or even hundreds of dollars on ammunition for lawful use.

I think the problem is that many non-shooters perceive ammunition as an inherently dangerous thing, which should only be possessed in small amounts, whereas shooters don't see a five thousand round reserve as any more sinister than a spare can of gas for the lawnmower.

[spin]

40. Stockpiling ammo is often caused by the fact that the price of ammo has and will skyrocket. ...

Stored properly ammo will last decades. Many people in the shooting sports go through thousands of rounds each year.

I used to reload ammo and I usually reloaded 6000 rounds per year. That may sound like a lot but I went to the range once a week and fired two 50 round boxes of ammo through whatever handgun I took that day. That would account for 5200 rounds and occasionally I would shoot more than 2 boxes especially if I took two of my revolvers out to practice. I also would usually shoot a box of 50 .22 caliber bullets as a warm up. You don't reload this type of ammo.

I was never was a competitive handgun shooter and had I been I would have fired thousands of rounds each month.

Many shooters who do not reload buy ammo when they find it at a good price and are able to still enjoy their hobby when political fears cause ammo prices to jump dramatically or when the demand clears the store shelves of all popular ammo.

[gejohnston]

3. Or are they simply pontificating to hear themselves?

Yeah. It sounds like a big deal, so they use it to sensationalize it even more.

[Politicalboi]

4. Because NOBODY

Needs that amount of ammo. Those for gun rights should go after ammo instead of guns. The right to bear arms doesn't say anything about your arms being loaded. Kapow works well when shooting someone to let them know you shot them.


Some gun fanatics are also pro-life idiots. So why not fuck with their rights for a change. Make them jump through hoops to keep their sacred guns loaded. If we regulate ammo it would help eliminate more deaths due to guns.

[Simo 1939_1940]

6. "Kapow works well when shooting someone to let them know you shot them."

And promoting/smoking grass works well in financing/empowering the cartels primarily responsible for gun violence worldwide.

[Politicalboi]

10. What?

LOL! Don't blame us potheads for the cartels who deal in anything illegal. If the US made pot legal we wouldn't have those cartels. The blame belongs to the cartels and the US. Marijuana is a harmless weed that hurts no one.

And if the US made owning over 100 rounds illegal we wouldn't have these mass shootings as often. It wouldn't get rid of the problem, but to encourage it by not making it illegal leaves the door to the asylum open for all.

[gejohnston]

12. yeah we would

and what about the pot heads who buy from the cartels and local street dealers who shoot each other? Why should my individual liberties be curtailed because a problem I don't contribute to?

[Simo 1939_1940]

20. Pure nonsense.

And if the US made owning over 100 rounds illegal we wouldn't have these mass shootings as often.

The hell we wouldn't. It's excruciatingly naive to believe that owning over 100 rounds of ammo will ever be made illegal, OR that a highly motivated psycho couldn't find a work-around to such an absurd fantasy.

I'm actually with you w/regard to decriminalizing MJ -- but until that happens don't pretend for a moment that sales of grass don't provide the financial bedrock that the cartels depend on for their other activities.

[Trunk Monkey]

36. The blame belongs to the cartels and the US

Really? So no blame should attach itself to the pot heads that support the cartels?

The ones who create the demand that drives the supply and makes it a lucrative enough business to kill people over should share none of the blame?

[cherokeeprogressive]

39. How many rounds did Holmes use? n/t

[Clames]

9. Wrong.

That's all there is. You are wrong...

http://constitution.org/leglrkba.htm

The U.S. Constitution does not adequately define "arms". When it was adopted, "arms" included muzzle-loaded muskets and pistols, swords, knives, bows with arrows, and spears. However, a common- law definition would be "light infantry weapons which can be carried and used, together with ammunition, by a single militiaman, functionally equivalent to those commonly used by infantrymen in land warfare."

[Politicalboi]

11. Well they should at least limit

The amount. If I get questioned for buying cold medicine too often, then they can do it with ammo too. Nobody needs a stock pile of ammo.

[virginia mountainman]

21. Why are you using a "needs" qualifier when discussing the practicing of a civil liberty??

That is very dangerous logic. Would you want someone to use a needs qualifier when talking about our other civil liberties?

How about applying the needs qualifier to the right to free speech, or the right to health care??

Our civil liberties is not like a cheap Chinese buffet, where you can pick over the stuff you like and don't like..

It very much is "all or NOTHING"

[Clames]

25. Why are you buying cold medicine so often?

Don't need medicine to get over a cold. You stocking up for some reason?

[virginia mountainman]

15. YAWN..

Ok..... You ban away...

Let me know how much success you have!!

[-..__...]

29. I'll give your rant -1 based on it's weakness...

and lack of bug-eyed, fist pounding, sweat beads outrage.

However... to your credit, I'll give you a +1 for not posting that same'ol, same'ol Chris Rock "if bullets cost
$5,000.. he must have done something... he got $5,000 worth of bullets in his ass" belly laugh.

So... you're breaking even in my book... quit while you can still maintain some dignity.


Added note... can you gun grabber types please, please stop referring to that stupid ass routine?

It was funny once, maybe twice.. more than that, it just becomes another gun grabber talking point.

Try quoting some Yoda shit or something next time if you expect to be taking seriously.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

7. wasn't the apartment booby-trapped? wouldn't all that ammo contribute to big boom that was intended

or did I miss something?

[virginia mountainman]

18. Ammo really is not that explosive..."outside of a pressure vessel"

A live round tossed into a fire, will eventually go "pop" like a fire cracker, but since it is not in a gun's chamber, and cannot build up pressure, the force released is relativity very small compared to the POTENTIAL energy it has.

It might surprise you to learn, that when ammo "cooks off" in a open fire, the bullet (projectile) actually will still be close to where the was before it went "pop". The only slightly dangerous part, is the empty shell casing, as it comes out of the fire. The bullet is too heavy to go flying, but the empty shell casing is not.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. what does concern me is the fact that an obviously disturbed young man was able to escape

notice from society. Something is very wrong. How did this happen?

That is the number One question that, I think needs to be asked and answered.

How do we as a society help these young men.

I include the "thugs" and "terrorists" in this group because it is my contention that they are as seriously disturbed as James Holmes.

I think we are focusing on the wrong issue.

I am beginning to think that I am the only person that wants to frame the discussion in this manner.

[virginia mountainman]

37. You are spot on correct...

It is mental health issue first, and foremost by far..

But attacking Gun Owners is much easier than even starting to talk about mental health issues. And then the "powers that be" and "news makers" wish to talk about banning things, and paint the rosy picture that "all would be ok if we banned A, B, and C"

Than this fine forum denigrates and the usual suspects start "Iverglas-ing" at length in OP's, and other threads and causing lots of angst among people that in normal times would be getting along fine for the most part.

Than it is time to get defensive, to defend your view, that is suddenly under attack from many people that the only thing they know about guns is which end the bullet comes out of....And of course, what movies and the TV show "law and order" has taught them.

We loose sight of the fact, that it, at its core, is a mental health issue. And that up until the moment, he entered the theater with his weapons, he probably would have been viewed as someone in need of help.

[-..__...]

26. Possibly...

all depends on what his intentions/plans were.

One possibility is that he used a bullet puller (or pair of pliers), in order to empty the casings for the smokeless powder to construct his devices.

Say he kept 500 for his shooting spree; that leaves 5,500 rounds with roughly 20.00 grains (+/- a grain or two), with 7,000 grains in a pound...

5,500 x 20 / 7,000 = 15.714 lbs of powder.

That would make one fuck of a mess in a confined space, especially if flammable liquids are thrown into the mix.

The problem I have with that scenario, is that it would have been much cheaper and less time consuming to purchase 1lb or 5lb canisters of powder as sold to shooters who reload their own ammo.

If they were just loose and/or packaged rounds... it wouldn't have done jack shit except for being a waste of perfectly good ammo.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. Two comments about this:

That would make one fuck of a mess in a confined space, especially if flammable liquids are thrown into the mix.

that is what I was thinking .... not good at all.

The problem I have with that scenario, is that it would have been much cheaper and less time consuming to purchase 1lb or 5lb canisters of powder as sold to shooters who reload their own ammo.

Obviously, this is a disturbed mind with which we are dealing.

[virginia mountainman]

30. Actully..

As a reloader I know this....

Practically ALL, Smokeless powder, used in modern ammunition, is NOT explosive, If you put a lit match to a pile of it, it will simply burn. It MUST build up pressure in a firearm, to become "explosive".

Now, Black powder,Pyrodex, and other black powder substitutes, as used in muzzle loaders, are much more "energetic animal" and must be treated very carefully.

[-..__...]

35. As a 28+ year firefighter...

5,000 rounds of improperly stored ammo wouldn't concern me nearly as much as 5 gallons of improperly stored gasoline would.

By "improperly", I mean near a source of ignition.

[virginia mountainman]

31. if he was thinking that way,

He would have simply bought a 8 lb keg of powder and been done with it. Anyplace that sells reloading gear, could have sold it too him. Heck he could have ordered it online for that matter.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Hodgdon-Pyrodex-RS-1-lb/productinfo/0812221/

If he was serious about it and did a bit of research he would have done what Timothy McVeigh did..

[-..__...]

33. Maybe if that's someone like you or me who knows that kind of stuff...

By that I mean people experienced with firearms, reloading and what would work, and what wouldn't.

But, who really knows what this guy was thinking and how much serious thought he put into it.

If he had done enough research... he would have known that Beta Mags are a POS.

Obviously... he didn't.

A little more research, and a little more imagination, and he could have created even more mayhem without a single round being fired or explosive being detonated.

I'm guessing this guy got his ideas from crap like "The Anarchist Cookbook" and Loompanics/Paladin Press publications and worked out some of the bugs.

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. I'd be thrilled to be living next to

a virtual ammo dump.

Good Lord. Are you serious?

[gejohnston]

13. maybe you do

you might be next to a meth lab for you know. Between the two, I'll take the ammo dump.

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. Go for it.

When the hoarder drops a lit butt in on the couch, you'll go quickly.

And who's talking about meth labs, anyway? Stay on topic.

[gejohnston]

19. you been watching too many TV cop shows

and that amount isn't hoarding.

[TheCowsCameHome]

22. Certainly, everyone has that much ammo and booby traps on hand.

It's a basic staple, like milk and cereal.

And I don't watch cop shows, Nostradamus.

[gejohnston]

23. not that much ammo

I once bought 8K rounds of .22s. Actually, it was for three sets of tins with Fredrick Remington paintings on them. Each tin had about 675. It took me a couple of years to shoot them all. .22s don't take up that much space. Full of ammo or not, they looked nice on my book shelf.

[virginia mountainman]

38. why, is the couch polyester????

[virginia mountainman]

24. Yes..

A can of gasoline, is far FAR, more dangerous than a few thousand rounds of stored ammo.

You can ship ammunition, it does not even rate a hazmat designation, try to ship a full gas can,

[sylvi]

16. Because it adds to the emotion-based argument

SIX THOUSANDZ ROUNDZ!!! OH NOOOESSSS!!!11!1ELEVENTYONE!!

What shooter in the history of mass murders has ever come close to using that much ammo? Usually it's a few dozen rounds at most before they off themselves, are shot, or run away temporarily before being caught.

It's not unusual for legitimate gun enthusiasts to have that much ammo on hand or more if they've recently come across a sale or the ammo is spread over several different guns.

[petronius]

32. Because big numbers are scary. Acronyms are scary. Faux-psychiatric terms like

"hoarding" and "obsession" are scary. Military monikers like AK-47 are scary. And it's so much easier to sway public opinion with 'scary' than it is with facts...

[Reasonable_Argument]

34. Because it helps sell the story and grabs headlines

Many people don't know a damn thing about firearms, just look at this forum for example, and by adding "1000s of rounds" to a story it makes it sound more sinister so it grabs people's attention.

[ManiacJoe]

42. This would be the correct answer.

[ileus]

41. They still believe guns and ammo kill people.