Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Speaker Johnson: Separation of church, state 'a misnomer'
I respectfully decline to elevate this to the level of news.
Hat tip, Joe.My.God.
Johnson: Separation Of Church And State Is “Misnomer”
November 14, 2023
November 14, 2023
Speaker Johnson: Separation of church, state ‘a misnomer’
BY LAUREN SFORZA - 11/14/23 9:44 AM ET
Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) pushed back Tuesday on the belief that there should be separation between church and state on the U.S., arguing that the founding fathers wanted faith to be a “big part” of government.
“Separation of church and state … is a misnomer. People misunderstand it,” Johnson said on CNBC’s “Squawk Box” when asked about him praying on the House floor. “Of course, it comes from a phrase that was in a letter that Jefferson wrote is not in the Constitution.”
“And what he was explaining is they did not want the government to encroach upon the church, not that they didn’t want principles of faith to have influence on our public life. It’s exactly the opposite,” the Speaker added.
The letter that Johnson referred to is Thomas Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists Association of Connecticut, who had expressed concerns about religious liberty. In his reply, Jefferson said that the First Amendment, which bars Congress from prohibiting free exercise of a religion, built “a wall of separation between Church & State.”
{etc.}
BY LAUREN SFORZA - 11/14/23 9:44 AM ET
Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) pushed back Tuesday on the belief that there should be separation between church and state on the U.S., arguing that the founding fathers wanted faith to be a “big part” of government.
“Separation of church and state … is a misnomer. People misunderstand it,” Johnson said on CNBC’s “Squawk Box” when asked about him praying on the House floor. “Of course, it comes from a phrase that was in a letter that Jefferson wrote is not in the Constitution.”
“And what he was explaining is they did not want the government to encroach upon the church, not that they didn’t want principles of faith to have influence on our public life. It’s exactly the opposite,” the Speaker added.
The letter that Johnson referred to is Thomas Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists Association of Connecticut, who had expressed concerns about religious liberty. In his reply, Jefferson said that the First Amendment, which bars Congress from prohibiting free exercise of a religion, built “a wall of separation between Church & State.”
{etc.}
Here's what Jefferson thought:
Sat May 6, 2023: Thursday, May 4, 2023, was the National Day of Prayer. Here's my take on that.
For Religious Freedom Day: What Jefferson Really Thought of Theocrat Patrick Henry
http://freethoughtblogs.com/rodda/2012/01/16/for-religious-freedom-day-what-jefferson-really-thought-of-theocrat-patrick-henry/
For Religious Freedom Day: What Jefferson Really Thought of Theocrat Patrick Henry
Categories: Uncategorized
by Chris Rodda
So, today {January 16} is Religious Freedom Day, the anniversary of the passage of Thomas Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. No, I’m not going to post Jefferson’s statute; I’m going to post something cooler than that — one of my favorite lines ever written by Jefferson.
The background: Jefferson drafted his religious freedom statute in 1777 and introduced it in 1779, but it didn’t go anywhere. It wasn’t until 1786 that Jefferson’s statute was passed. Jefferson was in France at the time, so it was Madison who reintroduced the religious freedom statute. This was right after James Madison defeated Patrick Henry’s bill to tax everybody in Virginia to support teachers of the Christian religion.
Jefferson couldn’t stand Patrick Henry and his theocratic agenda, and made this quite clear in one {of} his letters to Madison while Madison was battling Henry’s bill for a Christian religious tax. When Madison wrote to Jefferson asking what they should do about Henry, Jefferson replied:
“While Mr. Henry Lives another bad constitution would be formed, and saddled for ever on us. What we have to do I think is devoutly to pray for his death …”
Of course, the Christian nationalist history revisionists either ignore this line from Jefferson, or claim it is made up by evil secularists to impugn the character of our very Christian founding fathers.
{snip}
{This is} from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to James Madison on December 8, 1784, and can be found on pages 353-354 of The Republic Of Letters, The Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and James Madison 1776-1826, Volume I.
Categories: Uncategorized
by Chris Rodda
So, today {January 16} is Religious Freedom Day, the anniversary of the passage of Thomas Jefferson’s Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. No, I’m not going to post Jefferson’s statute; I’m going to post something cooler than that — one of my favorite lines ever written by Jefferson.
The background: Jefferson drafted his religious freedom statute in 1777 and introduced it in 1779, but it didn’t go anywhere. It wasn’t until 1786 that Jefferson’s statute was passed. Jefferson was in France at the time, so it was Madison who reintroduced the religious freedom statute. This was right after James Madison defeated Patrick Henry’s bill to tax everybody in Virginia to support teachers of the Christian religion.
Jefferson couldn’t stand Patrick Henry and his theocratic agenda, and made this quite clear in one {of} his letters to Madison while Madison was battling Henry’s bill for a Christian religious tax. When Madison wrote to Jefferson asking what they should do about Henry, Jefferson replied:
“While Mr. Henry Lives another bad constitution would be formed, and saddled for ever on us. What we have to do I think is devoutly to pray for his death …”
Of course, the Christian nationalist history revisionists either ignore this line from Jefferson, or claim it is made up by evil secularists to impugn the character of our very Christian founding fathers.
{snip}
{This is} from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to James Madison on December 8, 1784, and can be found on pages 353-354 of The Republic Of Letters, The Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and James Madison 1776-1826, Volume I.
Patrick Henry was the first governor of Virginia, and Thomas Jefferson was the second. We really got off to a great start, didn't we?
Mon Jan 16, 2023: On January 16, 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
15 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
= new reply since forum marked as read
Thomas Jefferson and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826) was prevented by illness from attending the Virginia Convention of 1774 that met to discuss what to do in the aftermath of the Boston Tea Party and the closing of the port of Boston by the British. But Jefferson sent a paper to the convention, later published as A Summary View of the Rights of British America. The force of its arguments and its literary quality led the Convention to elect Jefferson to serve in the Continental Congress.
He was too anti-British to be made use of until a total break with Great Britain had become inevitable. Then he was entrusted with drafting the Declaration of Independence. This assignment, and what he made of it, ensured Jefferson's place as an apostle of liberty. In the Declaration, and in his other writings, Jefferson was perhaps the best spokesman we have had for the American ideals of liberty, equality, faith in education, and in the wisdom of the common man. But what Jefferson wanted to be remembered for, besides writing the Declaration of Independence, was writing the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and founding the University of Virginia
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
(annotated transcript)
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom is a statement about both freedom of conscience and the principle of separation of church and state. Written by Thomas Jefferson and passed by the Virginia General Assembly on January 16, 1786, it is the forerunner of the first amendment protections for religious freedom. Divided into three paragraphs, the statute is rooted in Jefferson's philosophy. It could be passed in Virginia because Dissenting sects there (particularly Baptists, Presbyterians, and Methodists) had petitioned strongly during the preceding decade for religious liberty, including the separation of church and state.
Jefferson had argued in the Declaration of Independence that "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle [man]…." The first paragraph of the religious statute proclaims one of those entitlements, freedom of thought. To Jefferson, "Nature's God," who is undeniably visible in the workings of the universe, gives man the freedom to choose his religious beliefs. This is the divinity whom deists of the time accepted—a God who created the world and is the final judge of man, but who does not intervene in the affairs of man. This God who gives man the freedom to believe or not to believe is also the God of the Christian sects.
I. Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishment or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was his Almighty power to do . . .
The second paragraph is the act itself, which states that no person can be compelled to attend any church or support it with his taxes. It says that an individual is free to worship as he pleases with no discrimination.
II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
The third paragraph reflects Jefferson's belief in the people's right, through their elected assemblies, to change any law. Here, Jefferson states that this statute is not irrevocable because no law is (not even the Constitution). Future assemblies that choose to repeal or circumscribe the act do so at their own peril, because this is "an infringement of natural right." Thus, Jefferson articulates his philosophy of both natural right and the sovereignty of the people.
III. And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the act of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation, such as would be an infringement of natural right.
Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826) was prevented by illness from attending the Virginia Convention of 1774 that met to discuss what to do in the aftermath of the Boston Tea Party and the closing of the port of Boston by the British. But Jefferson sent a paper to the convention, later published as A Summary View of the Rights of British America. The force of its arguments and its literary quality led the Convention to elect Jefferson to serve in the Continental Congress.
He was too anti-British to be made use of until a total break with Great Britain had become inevitable. Then he was entrusted with drafting the Declaration of Independence. This assignment, and what he made of it, ensured Jefferson's place as an apostle of liberty. In the Declaration, and in his other writings, Jefferson was perhaps the best spokesman we have had for the American ideals of liberty, equality, faith in education, and in the wisdom of the common man. But what Jefferson wanted to be remembered for, besides writing the Declaration of Independence, was writing the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and founding the University of Virginia
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
(annotated transcript)
The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom is a statement about both freedom of conscience and the principle of separation of church and state. Written by Thomas Jefferson and passed by the Virginia General Assembly on January 16, 1786, it is the forerunner of the first amendment protections for religious freedom. Divided into three paragraphs, the statute is rooted in Jefferson's philosophy. It could be passed in Virginia because Dissenting sects there (particularly Baptists, Presbyterians, and Methodists) had petitioned strongly during the preceding decade for religious liberty, including the separation of church and state.
Jefferson had argued in the Declaration of Independence that "the laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle [man]…." The first paragraph of the religious statute proclaims one of those entitlements, freedom of thought. To Jefferson, "Nature's God," who is undeniably visible in the workings of the universe, gives man the freedom to choose his religious beliefs. This is the divinity whom deists of the time accepted—a God who created the world and is the final judge of man, but who does not intervene in the affairs of man. This God who gives man the freedom to believe or not to believe is also the God of the Christian sects.
I. Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishment or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was his Almighty power to do . . .
The second paragraph is the act itself, which states that no person can be compelled to attend any church or support it with his taxes. It says that an individual is free to worship as he pleases with no discrimination.
II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
The third paragraph reflects Jefferson's belief in the people's right, through their elected assemblies, to change any law. Here, Jefferson states that this statute is not irrevocable because no law is (not even the Constitution). Future assemblies that choose to repeal or circumscribe the act do so at their own peril, because this is "an infringement of natural right." Thus, Jefferson articulates his philosophy of both natural right and the sovereignty of the people.
III. And though we well know that this assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of legislation only, have no power to restrain the act of succeeding assemblies, constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act to be irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare, that the rights hereby asserted are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present, or to narrow its operation, such as would be an infringement of natural right.
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom - Wikipedia
Sat Jan 16, 2021: Jefferson still teaches us lessons about religious freedom
Jefferson still teaches us lessons about religious freedom | Commentary
By JOHN RAGOSTA
GUEST COLUMNIST | JAN 16, 2021 AT 6:00 AM
Jan. 16 is Religious Freedom Day, commemorating adoption of Virginia’s Statute for Religious Freedom, a foundation for the First Amendment. ... It is a good day to remember Thomas Jefferson, the statute’s author, champion of religious freedom and someone who enslaved 607 humans.
Before the Revolution, America was plagued with religious establishments. In Virginia, everyone paid taxes supporting the government-favored Church of England. Religious dissenters, mostly evangelical Baptists and Presbyterians, faced serious discrimination and persecution — jailed, beaten, dunked in rude parody of immersion baptism. The Virginia statute, championed by Jefferson, James Madison and the evangelicals, put a stop to this.
The statute became a model for the First Amendment. For 100 years, Americans grappling with religious freedom turned to Jefferson and his “wall of separation between church and state.” When states debated religious freedom, they almost never asked what Washington or Hamilton or Adams thought. Again and again they turned to Jefferson, Madison and Virginia’s statute.
Jefferson’s vision became so dominant that in 1879, the Supreme Court unanimously declared the statute “defined” religious freedom; Jefferson’s Danbury Baptist letter declaring a “wall of separation” explained the First Amendment.
Now, Jefferson’s memory is under attack because he was a slaveowner and racist. His role in what he understood was the abomination of slavery must be fully explored. History, though, also demands that we consider what he gave our nation.
{snip}
Religious Freedom Day is a good day to remember Jefferson’s deep and serious flaws, how much he did for our country, and how much we have yet to do.
John Ragosta, author of “Religious Freedom: Jefferson’s Legacy, America’s Creed,” is a Fellow at Virginia Humanities in Charlottesville.
By JOHN RAGOSTA
GUEST COLUMNIST | JAN 16, 2021 AT 6:00 AM
Jan. 16 is Religious Freedom Day, commemorating adoption of Virginia’s Statute for Religious Freedom, a foundation for the First Amendment. ... It is a good day to remember Thomas Jefferson, the statute’s author, champion of religious freedom and someone who enslaved 607 humans.
Before the Revolution, America was plagued with religious establishments. In Virginia, everyone paid taxes supporting the government-favored Church of England. Religious dissenters, mostly evangelical Baptists and Presbyterians, faced serious discrimination and persecution — jailed, beaten, dunked in rude parody of immersion baptism. The Virginia statute, championed by Jefferson, James Madison and the evangelicals, put a stop to this.
The statute became a model for the First Amendment. For 100 years, Americans grappling with religious freedom turned to Jefferson and his “wall of separation between church and state.” When states debated religious freedom, they almost never asked what Washington or Hamilton or Adams thought. Again and again they turned to Jefferson, Madison and Virginia’s statute.
Jefferson’s vision became so dominant that in 1879, the Supreme Court unanimously declared the statute “defined” religious freedom; Jefferson’s Danbury Baptist letter declaring a “wall of separation” explained the First Amendment.
Now, Jefferson’s memory is under attack because he was a slaveowner and racist. His role in what he understood was the abomination of slavery must be fully explored. History, though, also demands that we consider what he gave our nation.
{snip}
Religious Freedom Day is a good day to remember Jefferson’s deep and serious flaws, how much he did for our country, and how much we have yet to do.
John Ragosta, author of “Religious Freedom: Jefferson’s Legacy, America’s Creed,” is a Fellow at Virginia Humanities in Charlottesville.
Mon Jan 16, 2023: On January 16, 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
Sat Jan 16, 2021: On January 16, 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
Thu Jan 16, 2020: On January 16, 1786, the Virginia General Assembly passed the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
