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markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
Tue Aug 30, 2022, 10:58 PM Aug 2022

Responding to a letter to the NY Times' Ethicist

Today I had to respond to a letter that appeared in the NY Times' The Ethicist column (see https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/30/magazine/elderly-assistance-racism-ethics.html ). It is the third letter in the column. It reads:

We are a group of gay men who have known one another for several years. One of the men came out a few years ago. I’ll call him John. John recently came out again, now as transgender. John’s desire that we call him by a new name (correcting us when we refer to him as John), his need to talk with us incessantly about his transition, his change of clothing, the slow physical effects of the hormones he is taking — all of this has become a challenge for the rest of the group when we hang around together.

But our real concern is that we recently planned a gay tour in Mexico. The tour is very structured, with little personal time. Our group makes up a majority of the tour.

John seems to think that we should all accept his new identity without reservation, with as much cheer and acceptance as he does for himself, not thinking or caring about how any of us might feel.

As superficial as this sounds, we no longer want our friend John to join us. There are reasons that gay men enjoy traveling together, and it’s not to hang around with a woman.

Straight people imagine that gay men view trans men/women in the same inclusive bubble as other gay men. We are all, so the acronym implies, part of that big, progressive L.G.B.T.Q.+ umbrella. Not true. In general, gay men (for all of our performances of femininity) do not understand trans identity — we don’t commonly socialize together.

The bottom line is that John’s presence will spoil a much-anticipated and expensive vacation. Do we just put up or shut up? Should we talk? If so, about what? Name Withheld


Here is the comment I posted in response:

I am a 61-year-old, cisgender gay man, and I have to say I have zero patience with gay men who express sentiments such as those expressed by LW#3!

Look, I don't fully "understand" (whatever that even means in this context) the experience of a transgender person, because I am not transgender myself. I have never had any inner conflict concerning my own gender identity as a man. That said, the simple reality is that I don't _need_ to understand it in order treat a transgender person, be they friend, acquaintance or foe, with the dignity and respect of addressing and identifying them as they have chosen to be addressed and identified! And I don't have to live their lives -- only they do.

And to any of the men in LW#3's group who feel similarly to LW#3, I would question whether you all are, or ever were, really friends. Sounds to me as if you are all more of a (rather shallow) affinity group.

And to any gay man who thinks the transgender members of the LGBTQ+ community have nothing whatever to do with gay people, I would respectfully submit that you really need to reacquaint yourself with the history of the LGBTQ+ struggle for civil rights and equality before the law!
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Responding to a letter to the NY Times' Ethicist (Original Post) markpkessinger Aug 2022 OP
Good on you DaBronx Aug 2022 #1
Excellent response. MLAA Aug 2022 #2
Bravo!!! alwaysinasnit Aug 2022 #3
Unfuckingbelieveable vercetti2021 Aug 2022 #4
Thank you. Susan Calvin Aug 2022 #5
Good on you, and thank you for your response IngridsLittleAngel Sep 2022 #6

vercetti2021

(10,156 posts)
4. Unfuckingbelieveable
Wed Aug 31, 2022, 03:47 AM
Aug 2022

See this shit bothers me so badly. My gay friends fully supported me and love that I felt comfortable enough to come out and transition. They are definitely not these type of gays who don't consider us part of the community. We are all in this shit together, we are all in this community together, and we are fighting the same fucking battles together.

These men are not friends, they are not supportive, and they are bigoted sadly against their own friend for wanting to be who they are. It's a fucking disgrace we gotta fight these types in our own community. Sounds like these guys would be perfect fit for the Log Cabin idiots.

Thanks for your reply to this.

 

IngridsLittleAngel

(1,962 posts)
6. Good on you, and thank you for your response
Mon Sep 5, 2022, 12:37 AM
Sep 2022

I can tell you over the last 30~ years or so I've ran into this kind of attitude from plenty of G's, L's and B's, and it's sickening and sad. All of us under the rainbow face discrimination on a regular basis, and stuff like the initial letter only makes it worse. If they were true friends, they would be absolutely fine with "John" now being "Joan", their wishes on their new name, etc... And yet, too often, things like this happen.

There's no question that a lot of people put LGBTQ's through hell... But it hurts even more when it's part of that same group doing it.

That was a wonderfully written letter, and thank you for speaking up.

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