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MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 11:30 AM Jun 2016

Summer Camp Blues

My great granddaughter (who is 11) just got back from a difficult three week summer camp experience.

Briefly, the camp is a mixed boys and girls camp, with the sexes segregated into two sides, but with some coed activities during the day. It is primarily Jewish, with kosher food served and the Sabbath observed, but lots of other people go and it's not exactly a frum facility. Basically, a place for Jewish kids to hang out with other Jewish kids, of all levels of Observance. Heavy on the conservative (religious, not political) side of Reform.

My GGD is objectively beautiful and also extremely athletic. As in, she was the only 11 year old to try (and completed in the top 5) 3 mile open lake swim. Boys follow her around like lost puppies and let her join their Xbox live video game battles.

So, flash forward three weeks. I got to go with the family to pick up my GGD and meet the cabin mates.

Flashing back three weeks: One of my GGD's cabin mates (also 11 or 12), on the first day, announced she was gay, and possibly going to transition into a boy.

Said roommate had a lot of other issues, notably her mother recently died and her father was apparently very distant. She was going to camp for 6 weeks, anyway, and three weeks nearly killed my granddaughter (Mom), so there is something going on at home.

She was clingy and very annoying cabin mate, wholly separate from any sexuality issue she had going on. (I figured this out from meeting her after 5 minutes. She would have driven me nuts.) She talked about her sexuality, a lot, which made my GGD and the other girls uncomfortable, in that they are all 11 and not particularly interested or comfortable talking about sex, of any kind.

Her revelation (and her annoying personality) made a lot of the girls shun her, from day one.

My GGD was a little freaked out, but opted to be nice to the girl, because that's the kind of family we are.

The result was, alas, the girl became a borderline stalker of my GGD, following her around and asking her to two of the dances they have. (My GGD declined, told her she was straight, and went with a nice looking Jewish boy from Israel -- where they held hands and danced. Serious stuff!)

In short, she made her romantic interest in my GGD known and was not taking "no" for an answer.

I saw this with my own eyes at the three week mark when we came to pick GGD up.

The girl was crying, following my GGD around, hugging her, and my GGD just kind of took the invasion of her space with a cringe. She repeatedly told GGD she "loved her." I didn't know about the gay issue a the time, but was thinking, "wow, this chick is weird and following my GGD around."

GGD, who loves camp, and has been going since 1st grade, is considering not going back to camp in order to avoid said girl, who apparently goes both terms every year.

GGD was very unhappy about having to change in a cabin with a person who was romantically interested in her. Boy or lesbian girl, it really doesn't matter.

GGD was bothered that being nice and normal was misinterpreted as openness to a romantic relationship and is considering being really mean in order to get the stalker girl to leave her alone. (Mom started calling stalker girl "Crazy Eyes" to use a Orange-as-New-Black reference.)

GGD wrote a plethora of heart-breaking letters home saying how unhappy she was that I read after she came home. They were far past the normal tears-on-my-pillow homesick letters from camp.

I am a past president of the board of this camp, and going to talk with the executive directors to see how they deal with this.

Before I do so, I really would like advice on this issue, both specific as to this situation and general, as several things have come to mind:

1. I don't think it is appropriate to house people who might have romantic interests in one another in the same cabin. Romantic interests creates a tension that ruins a lot of camp experiences, and candidly the kids are far too young to be dealing with anything like that. Hence why the boys are on one side of the camp and girls the other. I have zero ideas about how to address this.

2. For example, if one asked lesbian girls (and gays boys) to segregate, you'd create a ghetto that would have its own issues (and you'd have a cabin where romantic interests were more available). Also, the more religious elements of the camp would probably cease coming, and the primary goal is have Jewish kids from all kinds of Judaism.

3. More specifically as to GGD, Mom's initial response was to pull GGD from camp when she got the first letter. Dad convinced Mom to not get her. Dad's response was that: (1) this was part of growing up, GGD is pretty and going to have lots of unwanted suitors, and she needed to figure out how to deal with them sooner or later and (2) If Crazy Eyes didn't take the hint, she could use the religious card and tell the stalker that her Rabbi forbid her to be friends with her and proceed to shun her.


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Summer Camp Blues (Original Post) MosheFeingold Jun 2016 OP
I'm not sure this is entirely a gender orientation or sexuality issue. TygrBright Jun 2016 #1
Thank you for your well-reasoned post MosheFeingold Jun 2016 #2
11 is way too young for chasing other young girls. cwydro Jun 2016 #3
Thank you for your reply MosheFeingold Jul 2016 #4

TygrBright

(20,755 posts)
1. I'm not sure this is entirely a gender orientation or sexuality issue.
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 01:23 PM
Jun 2016

Although that certainly complicates it.

The youngster fixated on your GGD seems to be clinging to her for a number of reasons, the first and most important one being that s/he is in a deeply chaotic situation emotionally that includes gender orientation, but is certainly not limited to it. This youngster may be in need of much more help than it sounds like the camp can give.

Does the camp have access to any pediatric or adolescent mental health services? Can they get this youngster an assessment and/or some counseling, and/or communicate with the parent to the effect that should be happening?

FWIW, eleven sounds a little young to me to be going all 'romantic/sexual relationship-ey' although youngsters that age certainly do form crushes and strong attachments to one another. And puberty is getting younger every year. Eleven year olds aren't exempt from questioning and worrying, and shouldn't ever be made afraid to ask for help in doing that.

This particular youngster seems to have fixated on your GGD primarily because your GGD is nice to her, secondarily because your GGD is a very attractive youngster in several ways. If gender identity is at the forefront of her/his consciousness right now, that's the 'frame' for the attachment, but in fact, s/he may simply be deeply lonely, depressed, in need of help and attention and/or someone who can assist in understanding the multiple challenges present in her/his life.

Your GGD is NOT that person, it's no job for an eleven-year-old who has her own schedule, fun to have, expectations, etc.

You can have some conversations with your GGD about boundaries, reinforcing where to place limits, and identifying the kindliest way to enforce those limits if needed. But the Camp and or, the other youngster's parent need to address the level of inappropriate interaction with her/him, and it should focus more on 'what level of friendship and companionship is welcome and enjoyable to the other person' and less on 'what you're doing is wrong/inappropriate,' which will only add to her/his woes.

It's a tough, tough situation. Sounds like your GGD is handling it like a trouper, getting help, and you and her Mom are on top of reaching out to ensure that the help happens, all while being sensitive to the misery the other youngster is experiencing.

So, bravo, you. A very good start.

I hope this feedback is helpful.

encouragingly,
Bright

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
2. Thank you for your well-reasoned post
Mon Jun 27, 2016, 03:20 PM
Jun 2016

It was very "bright."

I've had a phone call with the ED of the camp.

To answer your question, no the camp doesn't have specialized mental care, although there are two counselors per cabin and lots and lots of support people, all of whom I have found to be wonderful people. Medically, it has a nurse on sight, but she's a mom (and former camper) who deals with stuff like making sure kids take their meds, female problems (goes up through senior year), skinned knees, and the occasional bee sting. Camp injuries and normal kid stuff, in other words.

I do think my GGD will be fine. The girl in question will not be permitted back, not because she is gay, but for the way she is dealing with being gay (or whatever is going on). The camp just is not prepared to handle her issues and campers are not allowed to make other campers miserable. So our personal issues are resolved.

On the more global issue, what to do in the future with same-sex-attraction in the camp, I have learned the camp has a "no fraternization" rule that applies to all persons, regardless of sex or sexual attraction. The limit are the little weekly dances and they are all very G rated and under strict supervision. This is more due to the older kids doing what comes normally to older kids.

As to same-sex attraction, I have learned that older kids ("Midis" and "Senior Campers&quot already have a policy in place. They are asked, prior to coming, if they have a same sex-attraction. If they answer "yes," given the close quarters in the camp and communal showers, etc, they are told to not reveal their sexual orientation, as it could make other campers uncomfortable, akin to a boy in the shower.

Basically, "don't ask don't tell."

They also have a practice of segregating the people from more Conservative/Observant congregations from those who are more Reform/Reconstruction and putting kids who have same-sex attraction in with the Reform/Reconstruction kids.

They've decided to expands the don't-ask-don't-tell approach down to younger kids, probably 4th grade.

I'm uncertain if this is the correct approach, although I don't have a better solution.

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
3. 11 is way too young for chasing other young girls.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 05:15 PM
Jun 2016

Yes, I'm a gay woman, and I knew that I was "different" by about 7.

But this child's behavior is not normal or age appropriate.

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
4. Thank you for your reply
Tue Jul 19, 2016, 10:13 AM
Jul 2016

I fully concur, and our personal situation has been dealt with.

The more global concern now is how to deal with same-sex attraction in the camp, away-from-parents, setting.

They segregate boys and girls for obvious reasons, but it is not clear, at all, what to do in the same-sex situation.

If you have any good ideas, please advise.

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