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xchrom

(108,903 posts)
Wed May 9, 2012, 04:29 PM May 2012

i want to thank you president obama -- in the same way you have offered your evolved opinion.

which is to say as long as i don't have full access to the 14th amendment and equal protection.

you haven't evolved very far.

as long as you believe marriage equality is a states rights issue -- MEH.

you and most other americans today, tomorrow and day after and into the future have access to equal protection under the law and the rest of the 14th amendment -- not so much LGBTIQ people.

no small amount of irony here.

17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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i want to thank you president obama -- in the same way you have offered your evolved opinion. (Original Post) xchrom May 2012 OP
States have always controlled marriage. Hollywood Hills May 2012 #1
And when States gets it wrong the Federal Government steps in. William769 May 2012 #2
Perhaps you should post the examples MuseRider May 2012 #3
We can start with slavery then move to the right for women to vote then onto inter racial marriage. William769 May 2012 #4
Ya know it would save us all a lot of grief MuseRider May 2012 #12
the most important 1 xchrom May 2012 #5
And let us not forget what Mrs. Loving said in regards to gay marriage: Behind the Aegis May 2012 #7
+1 xchrom May 2012 #8
I've made this into my current facebook status. stevenleser May 2012 #16
Ok put egg on my face. William769 May 2012 #13
That required a lawsuit. WV people need to sue immediately to take this to the USSC! freshwest May 2012 #14
Yes and no. Ms. Toad May 2012 #17
You are all so great! MuseRider May 2012 #10
In addition to the court cases listed by others already: Amimnoch May 2012 #15
He supports the repeal of DOMA Maven May 2012 #6
states rights xchrom May 2012 #9
Yes, I think that is wrong and I vow to keep advocating recognition at the federal level Maven May 2012 #11

MuseRider

(34,136 posts)
3. Perhaps you should post the examples
Wed May 9, 2012, 04:51 PM
May 2012

it seems to be that it is needed today.

I would like to have more info myself.

William769

(55,148 posts)
4. We can start with slavery then move to the right for women to vote then onto inter racial marriage.
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:01 PM
May 2012

We can also get into Jim crow laws the civil rights act and the board of education and lets not forget Row v Wade.

Theres are just off the top of my head.

These are just some of the reasons why our first body of law (articles of confederation) was doomed to be a massive failure which born the U.S. Constitution.

States do have rights but when they infringe on a minority, the Federal Government (any of the 3 branches al sorking together), can smack them down.

MuseRider

(34,136 posts)
12. Ya know it would save us all a lot of grief
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:18 PM
May 2012

and horrendous experiences if the Feds would just do this. With this history I don't understand why they do not. Why make people go through the long process and pain when in the end they are going to need to step up and fix it?

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
5. the most important 1
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:01 PM
May 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967),[1] was a landmark civil rights case in which the United States Supreme Court, in a unanimous decision, declared Virginia's anti-miscegenation statute, the "Racial Integrity Act of 1924", unconstitutional, thereby overturning Pace v. Alabama (1883) and ending all race-based legal restrictions on marriage in the United States.

he plaintiffs, Mildred Loving (née Mildred Delores Jeter, a woman of African and Rappahannock Native American descent, July 22, 1939 – May 2, 2008)[2][3][4] and Richard Perry Loving (a white man, October 29, 1933 – June 1975),[5] were residents of the Commonwealth of Virginia who had been married in June 1958 in the District of Columbia, having left Virginia to evade the Racial Integrity Act, a state law banning marriages between any white person and any non-white person. Upon their return to Caroline County, Virginia, they were charged with violation of the ban. They were found sleeping in their bed by a group of police officers who had invaded their home in the hopes of finding them in the act of sex (another crime). In their defense, Mrs. Loving had pointed to a marriage certificate on the wall in their bedroom; rather than defending them, it became the evidence the police needed for a criminal charge, because it proved they had been married in another state. Specifically, they were charged under Section 20-58 of the Virginia Code, which prohibited interracial couples from being married out of state and then returning to Virginia, and Section 20-59, which classified "miscegenation" as a felony, punishable by a prison sentence of between one and five years. On January 6, 1959, the Lovings pled guilty and were sentenced to one year in prison, with the sentence suspended for 25 years on condition that the couple leave the state of Virginia. The trial judge in the case, Leon M. Bazile, echoing Johann Friedrich Blumenbach's 18th-century interpretation of race, proclaimed that
“ Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix. ”
The Lovings moved to the District of Columbia, and on November 6, 1963, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a motion on their behalf in the state trial court to vacate the judgment and set aside the sentence on the grounds that the violated statutes ran counter to the Fourteenth Amendment. This set in motion a series of lawsuits which ultimately reached the Supreme Court. On October 28, 1964, after their motion still had not been decided, the Lovings began a class action suit in the U.S District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. On January 22, 1965, the three-judge district court decided to allow the Lovings to present their constitutional claims to the Virginia Supreme Court of Appeals. Virginia Supreme Court Justice Harry L. Carrico (later Chief Justice of the Court) wrote an opinion for the court upholding the constitutionality of the anti-miscegenation statutes and, after modifying the sentence, affirmed the criminal convictions.
Ignoring United States Supreme Court precedent, Carrico cited as authority the Virginia Supreme Court's own decision in Naim v. Naim (1955), also arguing that the case at hand was not a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection Clause because both the white and the non-white spouse were punished equally for the crime of miscegenation, an argument similar to that made by the United States Supreme Court in 1883 in Pace v. Alabama.
In 1966, the Presbyterian Church took a stand, stating that they did not condemn or prohibit interracial marriages. The church found "no theological grounds for condemning or prohibiting marriage between consenting adults merely because of racial origin".[6] In that same year, the Unitarian Universalist Association declared that "laws which prohibit, inhibit or hamper marriage or cohabitation between persons because of different races, religions, or national origins should be nullified or repealed."[7] Months before the Supreme Court ruling on Loving v. Virginia the Roman Catholic Church joined the movement, supporting interracial couples in their struggle for recognition of their right to marriage.[citation needed]
[edit]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


The Fourteenth Amendment (Amendment XIV) to the United States Constitution was adopted on July 9, 1868, as one of the Reconstruction Amendments.
Its Citizenship Clause provides a broad definition of citizenship that overruled the Dred Scott v. Sandford ruling by the Supreme Court (1857) that had held that blacks could not be citizens of the United States.[1]
Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.
Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education. In Reed v. Reed (1971), the Supreme Court ruled that laws arbitrarily requiring sex discrimination violated the Equal Protection Clause.

Behind the Aegis

(54,035 posts)
7. And let us not forget what Mrs. Loving said in regards to gay marriage:
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:07 PM
May 2012

On June 12, 2007, Mildred Loving issued a rare public statement, which commented on same-sex marriage, prepared for delivery on the fortieth anniversary of the Loving v. Virginia decision of the US Supreme Court.[12] The concluding paragraphs of her statement read as follows:

"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the "wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.

I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about."
(empahsis mine)

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
14. That required a lawsuit. WV people need to sue immediately to take this to the USSC!
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:25 PM
May 2012

And they will have to overturn NC's law which is clearly un-Constitutional under the Fourteenth Amendment.

That will set the precedent to overturn this in every state.

Ms. Toad

(34,119 posts)
17. Yes and no.
Wed May 9, 2012, 06:37 PM
May 2012

Stare decisis should absolutely compel the same outcome.

Unfortunately, this Supreme Court may not be inclined to follow its own precedent (or may find some subtle way to distinguish it from Loving v. Virginia.

The hard truth is that timing can be everything. Our family lost the only appellate second parent adoption case in Ohio. We knew, personally, that adoptions were occurring at the local level in some counties, but because they were not appellate decisions (and were sealed) the could not be relied on or cited by other couples - if we could not get our adoption through quietly, an appellate decision could benefit - or hurt - others.

Ohio laws were identical to those in other states which permitted second parent adoption, we had the Lambda legal and the best attorney we could find arguing our case - using the arguments which had succeeded even against other laws in equally conservative states. We lost. When we asked the Ohio Supreme Court, they declined to hear it. It was clear from the vote that the case would have gone against us. We gave them every opportunity to signal us that they were ready to move forward and the clear message we received was that they were not.

We decided not to request reconsideration of the initial turn down by the Supreme Court because it would almost certainly result in a decision that would ban second parent adoption throughout the state - as our appellate decision did in two districts within the state controlled by the District in which the case occurred and in the one in which it was decided (complex story, but nothing nefarious as was suggested at the time in the local media).

Sixteen years later I still carry tremendous guilt that in two districts (19 of the 88 counties in Ohio) no local probate judge can do quietly what judges in other counties in Ohio have done. Our choice to appeal to the district court when we lost at the county level deprived other families of that possibility. At least it is only 19 counties, and not all 88 (as would be the case had we pushed the case one step farther).

Choosing to go through the courts is always risky - even when it should be absolutely clear cut. It is tempting to just take a case and run with it, but we risk making bad law if we run too soon.

FWIW, there are a number of very good legal minds who believe the challenge to the California marriage amendment risks doing just that when it hits the Supreme Court. Personally, I think it is a couple of years (or justices) too soon, and it terrifies me - both because of the precedent and because of the emotional impact on the couples involved - an impact I know all too well from my personal experience. On the other hand, if it succeeds - it will be the case we are hoping for.

That isn't to say we should wait quietly at the back of the bus for our turn at the civil rights table - I am really excited about the pace at which new states are recognizing marriage rights, about the prospect that the ban on federal recognition of state sanctioned marriages recognized will fall as unconstitutional, and about the prospect of a country-wide right to marriage (likely based on a loving v. Virginia like decision) which I believe is only a few years away. I made a prediction on DU in 2009 that it would happen in fewer than 10 years. My sense is we're still on track to hit that mark - but we still need to be strategic about when, and which case, ultimately reaches the Supreme Court.

MuseRider

(34,136 posts)
10. You are all so great!
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:15 PM
May 2012

I guess I have never really paid attention to when it was the Feds stepping into the fray and taking care of things. Never really thought much about that.

These are all good. Very good. I am a little ashamed to not really have thought about how that all came about even though I do know about them. This is good information to have because that will be the next battle I assume. That, of course, rests on this being more than just words. I am not real sure that is the case.

 

Amimnoch

(4,558 posts)
15. In addition to the court cases listed by others already:
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:52 PM
May 2012
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_0026.htm

1,049 Federal laws on the books that provide for benefits and affect the rights and privileges of married couples.

Maven

(10,533 posts)
6. He supports the repeal of DOMA
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:06 PM
May 2012

Whose repeal would effectively bring marriage equality to all 50 states when coupled with an appropriate lawsuit.

His change in public position on marriage is important and it is a first for any president, ever. Please, let's not be the unsatisfiable malcontents our detractors try to paint us as here on DU. Just for today, let's acknowledge a positive step as just that.

Edited to add: I fundamentally agree with you about "states' rights" being total bullshit. You know what I'm trying to say here.

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
9. states rights
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:10 PM
May 2012
http://www.thenation.com/blog/167798/obama-endorses-gay-marriage-kinda-now-what

'Obama, however, stopped short of lending full support to the multi-state legal and political campaign for marriage equality. According to ABC News, the President stressed that his is a “personal position,” and he continues to think that states should decide the issue independently.'

Maven

(10,533 posts)
11. Yes, I think that is wrong and I vow to keep advocating recognition at the federal level
Wed May 9, 2012, 05:17 PM
May 2012

While it is true that marriage laws are set at the state level, I agree with you that equal protection, substantive due process and full faith and credit under the federal constitution guarantee equal marriage.

However, note that other than helping to repeal DOMA (which he is against and which the DOJ has stopped defending in court) there is little the president or even Congress can do as far as equal protection or due process. The Supreme Court has the sole Constitutional authority to interpret the scope of those guarantees under the Constitution.

What am I saying here? I'll tell you:

1) "States' rights" isn't the real story here. Most people don't even understand the distinction. The big story is that for the first time, a president in an election year is publicly supporting marriage equality. That is "bully pulpit" leadership of exactly the kind we've been clamoring for. A lot of people who are voting in these state referendums will reevaluate their decisions in the future as a result of what the president did today.

2) Where the president can help most at the federal level, other than by supporting DOMA repeal and coming out for full equality as he did today, is by appointing more liberal justices to the Supreme Court.

YES, I think we should continue to press him and every other prominent Democrat to support equality across all 50 states. But what he's doing is positive. Let's ACKNOWLEDGE that at least before shooting down what he did today.

Edited to add: WOW, this is an awkward to position to find myself in.

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