Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsraelis destroyed 3778 trees and 30 wells in occupied Hebron district last year– Abdulhadi Hantash’
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/07/israelis-destroyed-abdulhadiAbdulhadi Hantash, a land surveyor and cartographer for the Palestinian Authority, sent me his “2014 Hebron District, West Bank, Special Report: Crimes committed against Palestinians by the Israeli military and Israeli settlers,” a continuation of his last disturbing Report. I publish it below, following his more recent bulletins.
I’ve known Hantash through email for two and a half years, and heard him speak in the U.S. a year ago. I was moved by his benevolent, visionary spirit, as he labors faithfully to free Palestine and to persuade the United States to stop supporting Israel’s illegal Occupation. Here are his reports just this month on Israeli aggression (edited slightly for clarity):
July 4th: There is a big new settlement of almost 10 acres between Hebron and Bethlehem, north of the Palestinian refuge camp Al Arrub, where the American millionaire Irving Moskowitz funds the rebuilding of a former church and hospital into housing for settlers. They want to add 125 acres of land, joining the Gush Etzion Settlement to block Hebron from Bethlehem.
---
Hantash’s account of the land near Al Arrub is confirmed by the press, which highlights Moskowitz’s subterfuge about buying strategic land in order to obstruct any Palestinian state. Hannah Sterling and Sara Anna examine how settlers funded by Moskowitz “ensure the real identity and intentions of property [buyers] are hidden” and “preclude any real possibility of establishing an independent, viable Palestinian state.” Even The Times of Israel emphasizes that Moskowitz snagged the land, “through a series of shell corporations and charitable organizations” to “help create a Jewish corridor between the two areas, making a two-state peace deal more difficult to negotiate.” Haaretz reveals that “great efforts were made to hide the purchase and the renovations. A young man named Emanuel was in charge…and he presented himself as a Norwegian who wanted to…return [the church] to its former condition.” The Telegraph headline tells the aim: “Israeli settlers backed by US businessman ‘planning to take over West Bank former hospital to prevent Palestinian state,'” and its story the illicit means: “after setting up a Swedish straw company posing as a Christian organisation to avoid official scrutiny.”
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shira
(30,109 posts)From the Mondoweiss article:
Yes, yes. Hamas has a right to "self-defense".
Classy.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Do you acknowledge or deny it?
shira
(30,109 posts)Or do you agree with it?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Do you agree with that or not??
Oh, you don't agree with it, and in your usual way have called it BS.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134109174#post5
Even when there is video evidence of Israel doing heinous things you either ignore it or call it a slander of some sort...that is until there is irrefutable evidence. Then you just disappear.
shira
(30,109 posts)
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)Which is what the report states, not hamas which you claim.
admittedly most(all?) members of hamas are palestinians but that does not give you a right to twist what the report says.(nor does said membership really remove said right from them.)
Note: this is not a defense of Hamas but a support of the right to self-defense in general(and wanting to correct shira's twisting of the reports wording)
shira
(30,109 posts)....via terror, ie, rockets, tunnels, exploding buses & restaurants, etc.?
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)My post was to correct the alteration you made to the report and support the right to self-defense
And there are many people and groups in palestine beside hamas, and i support all of their rights to self-defense, terror however does *not* count at self-defense last i checked nor do i support that. Why would you try to conflate two so different issues?
shira
(30,109 posts)Okay, so show me a few examples of this legitimate, LEGAL self-defense they're entitled to.
I'll wait until you admit you can't find any.
They're not different. When you're incapable of finding LEGIT self-defense by Palestinians, you'll come to the same conclusion I have.
Of course terror counts as self-defense. If Israel can claim that disproportionate attacks that destroys essential infrastructure and targets civilians are necessary to influence the behavior of Palestinians is legitimate, than Palestinian attacks are legitimate.
If George W Bush can say that the invasion of Iraq would bring "shock and awe" (terror) to the Iraqi's and keep them from resisting us, without being charged with war crimes, terror is a legitimate act.
For further acts of terror that are deemed both necessary and heroic, Google "resistance movements". From the founding fathers to WWII to Algeria in the fifties, terror has been an essential and legitimate part of war against empires by occupied and/or colonised peoples.
That imperial powers object to these tactics is funny...sort of...but it doesn't make it illegitimate.
shira
(30,109 posts)So when do we start bombing the IDF?
shira
(30,109 posts)What does bombing the IDF even mean? How do you do that?
Do you really mean you want to bomb Israel?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Can't you just admit what Netanyahu did here is completely unjustifiable? That there's no excuse for depriving people of the ability to earn their livlihood as they've done for centuries?
shira
(30,109 posts)That's a helluva claim w/o any photographic or video evidence. Nothing, nada, zilch.
This is called the Big Lie technique. No one could possibly lie about 3778 trees destroyed, can they? Just like they wouldn't claim Israel killed 500 Palestinians and then buried the bodies after steam rolling and flattening them during the Jenin fighting in 2002. Oops. 
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)The claim of 3778 trees is absurd, especially when there's no evidence of settlers actually doing it. Nothing that any objective court would consider to be proof.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)
That comes out to a little more than ten trees a day(maybe 15 a day if you took weekends off). You get a good sturdy tractor or rotovator(or a bunch of 'em) and that's no biggie.
It is possible that some were dug up and moved to the illegal settlements-common practice in the Territories and just as indefensible, since it deprives the Palestinian farmers who've tended those trees for fourteen centuries or more of any means of supporting themselves.
shira
(30,109 posts)But there's nothing.
The UN claimed 11,000 trees were damaged or uprooted in 2013. Even more absurd considering there's no evidence any objective court would find credible.
An even bigger lie.
It goes beyond Jenin. The UN didn't condemn Hamas once for the war in 2009 or the one in 2014. They denied Hamas' human shielding. Now that's even more ridiculous considering all the actual audio and visual evidence proving it.
Face it, the game is rigged. I don't see how anyone can take UN Hamas defenders & supporters at their word. It's just common sense. Israeli settlements are a war crime, but Hamas commits GENUINE and abhorrent war crimes in 2009 and 2014, both against Israelis and their own citizens & rather than condemn them, they enable Hamas to do the same thing again in a future war. These are the people you trust. My question is WHY? Why trust these people committed to Hamas' cause? And we know what that cause is (HINT: It's in their charter).
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And it's equally absurd to continue to pretend this conflict is based solely oreven primarily on antisemitism. Doing either of those things is just a cynical attempt to prevent anything from changing.
shira
(30,109 posts)....is the same UN that supports and defends Hamas.
And yet you believe them, despite the fact there is absolutely no visual or forensic evidence proving it.
I wouldn't even question a few hundred trees, but 11,000? That's crazy, and you're buying this from a Hamas supporting institution like the UN.
Why?
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)If you want to write an OP on an alleged illegitimate Hamas right of self defense, go ahead and write one.
To use your description, a classier response to this OP, would be to address its topic. Sadly, hijacking it to play Israel's DU defender game has become laughingly predictable.
Enjoy your rage...I guess.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I really hope not...
shira
(30,109 posts)How about video?
Sorry, I call bullshit. There is no country on the planet that is as misrepresented & slandered more than Israel. It seems the bigger the lie, the more it's believed. There's no way this could've happened without LOADS of evidence proving it...
Here's an article for you. Watch the video in the article to see how difficult & time consuming it is to care for just one olive tree by cutting off some dead stumps.
http://www.israellycool.com/2015/06/07/answering-the-olive-tree-destruction-libel/
Now here's an example of a healthy tree that was pruned, but represented as being destroyed by the dreaded Zionists...
http://www.israellycool.com/2014/12/07/separated-at-birth-the-dark-side-edition/
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Mondoweiss is usually accurate, and there have been no attempts to discredit the report, or even the last one from 2013:
Special Report: Attacks by the Israeli occupying forces and settlers in Hebron in 2012, by Abdulhadi Yusuf Hantash Source: Mondoweiss, January 17, 2013
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/scathing-documents-occupied#sthash.GHzk52Kq.dpuf
I made some basic checking, and the Moskovitz thing and the confiscation of al Khader land in 2014 checks out. While I can't be bothered to check the figures for accuracy, one thing stands out: "Using citizens as human shields: 12 cases" (under heading: "The arrest of citizens: up to 1800 detainees, many released in hours, others still in custody"
.
I thought the IDF had promised to stop the practice of using Palestinians as human shields...
shira
(30,109 posts).....to merely prune a healthy olive tree. It's not possible to destroy 3778 without any evidence whatsoever. Israel has more journalists per capita than any other country on the planet. Hebron especially. NGO's have given free cameras to Palestinian activists everywhere to record any and all incidents of oppression.
And yet, nothing showing any settlers or IDF soldiers destroying even one tree in all of 2014. How's that even possible? May as well claim Martians did it. They'd have just as much evidence for that claim as they have for Israelis doing it.
You've got nothing in response, so you deflect.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:43 AM - Edit history (1)
It's just "trees", however, not "olive trees". When it comes to olive trees, settlers are destroying them all the time. Good luck finding a reliable source that says otherwise.
The reason I mentioned the IDF use of human shields, is because the IDF has promised to stop that horrible practice over and over again, but still resort to it as soon as they think nobody is looking. What kind of shitty morals are that?
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:55 AM - Edit history (1)
...or photographic evidence proving it.
There actually are sources proving otherwise; actually showing Palestinians & Leftists destroying trees. They do this to incite against Jews, but also to file claims in order to be compensated for loss of income. It's a win-win situation.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161332
That one video constitutes more evidence than anything claimed in the OP against Israel for all of 2014.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I have to call what you just wrote a complete fabrication of universal proportion.
There has been article after article on Palestinians having their crops destroyed, and anybody who can claim otherwise is either a sloppy and willful liar or not living in a stable plane of reality.
Also, it is quite clear from your numerous hides that you have a clear disdain for Palestinians in general.
You fool nobody, shira.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-palestinians-gird-for-settler-attacks-on-olive-trees/2014/10/21/eb4f5096-54a8-11e4-892e-602188e70e9c_story.html
shira
(30,109 posts)....destroying olive trees?
They must be the sneakiest people ever to avoid having even 1 photograph or video catching them red-handed, especially given all the folks with cameras & cell-phones out there who are very willing and able to catch them in the act.
Meanwhile, the post you replied to (mine) shows video evidence of Palestinians and Leftists destroying olive trees. That's more evidence than what you have. How is that fucking possible?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Are you telling me the Israelis are so sneaky that no one was able to get even one picture or video proving this?
Because that's virtually impossible.
11,000 trees? And no one caught red-handed in the act?
Seriously?
Meanwhile, we see in the following video Palestinians and Leftists destroying olive trees...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4292715,00.html
Why can't you find similar proof against settlers?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Cowards usually are, shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)....cutting down olive trees, and you're left fumbling around making silly claims that 11,000 trees were destroyed by settlers - without any proof whatsoever. So there's proof against Palestinians and Leftists, but no proof against settlers.
You believe thinking people will just buy into that nonsense? What an absurd claim. I mean, I have more (photo/video) evidence of Palestinians and Leftists destroying trees than you have against settlers. And you don't see the problem.
Did Palestinians and Leftists forget to charge their iPhones? What about reporters? Were all their camera devices malfunctioning for the year? 11,000 trees and no proof. How is that fucking possible?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)goal posts. Then when you are finally cornered you disappear or demand more and more evidence then charge the victims with being the victimizers. 
It's little wonder why you keep on taking vacation after vacation from I/P with your aggressive and odious attacks on anything Palestinian.
And really, shira, it's the same old story for you and other deniers on I/P. When Palestinian kids were sniped by Israelis on Nakba day you and other deniers suggested that...
• The murdered Palestinians weren't the same ones shown in the video.
• That the Palestinians killed their own.
• That it was faked
• When caught blame the Palestinians and then use racial epithets...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=63899
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=63930
And here we see your tactic in all its glory...
60. When there's proof Israel killed the kids in the video with actual bullets, lemme know.
All we really know is that rubber bullets were fired, there was no blood, the bullet allegedly used couldn't have killed anyone, and there was definitely Pallywood going on just prior to the incident in question.
News reports should at the VERY LEAST report that Pallywood is a definite possibility that makes this incident anything but open and shut against Israel.
We have your number, shira. You're easy as pie.
shira
(30,109 posts)No visual or even forensic evidence for bad Israelis cutting down thousands of trees. Nothing. Zilch. Nada.
This "case" would be thrown out of any objective court of law for total lack of evidence.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts) Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Israelis are a nationality. Israel is a state (a state whose survival is not in question). Jews are a collection of religious and ethnic communities spread around the world, most of whom are NOT Israeli and many of whom(especially in the US, the UK, Canada, and Australia and New Zealand)have no desire to become Israeli or any real sense of connection with Israel. larger and larger numbers of them are deeply critical of what the Israeli government does to Palestinians in the name of "security".
When you use the Likudnik trope of treating "Israel", "Israelis", and "Jews" as synonyms, you are being deeply unfair to large sectors of the world's Jewish communities, tying them to ugly policies and actions they may not even support, giving antisemitic demagogues the chance to whip up hatred by making false equivalencies, and possibly putting them in greater danger by doing so.
So please stop using terminology that implies that Israel and Zionism are the Aleph and the Tav of everything Jewish. Judaism, Jewish cultural, religious, political, literary and artistic traditions started milennia before 1948 and will flourish and continue no matter what happens to the nationalist movement.
Israel has the right to exist(within the pre-1967 boundaries)but, despite your arrogant signature line Zionism is NOT "the civil rights movement of the Jewish people". Civil rights movements seek only to end the oppression and suffering faced by the group they encompass and represent...it's not a "civil rights movement" to put other people under military occupation, slowly commandeer their traditional homeland for illegal settlement expansion, and leave that people with too little territory to create a viable state for themselves. Civil rights movements can never be about depriving other people of their freedom, or about taking land for the sake of taking land.
Mosby
(16,406 posts)Just like native Americans have a right to live in their ancestral homelands.
Jews are a tribe, with a shared language, culture and religion.
עם ישראל חי
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And the right you mention there doesn't extend to having the right to oppress the Palestinians and to have a state of their own in their homeland. BOTH national communities have a right to be there.
shira
(30,109 posts)...the Palestinians utterly refuse it. Obviously, the Palestinian leadership thinks the status quo (alleged oppression, settlements, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, colonialism) is preferable to having their own state alongside Israel. And you have no problem with that.
But then again, you can't even blame Arafat and Abbas for turning down offers that would give them their own state, end the occupation and settlements, and grant Palestinians half of Jerusalem.
Ergo, you also believe the status quo is preferable to the multiple offers Palestinians have had WRT achieving their own state. Excuse me for not buying into your claim that you want Palestinians to have their own state free of occupation and settlements. That you want them to achieve their own sovereignty just like Israelis. I don't believe you're for this, else you'd demand that their leaders cut a deal.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)We're not still in 1948.
I've never said Abbas and Arafat were infallible, and of course Palestinians don't want to perpetuate the status quo.
But you have to acknowledge that the Israeli leadership were wrong to spend the whole Nineties continually saying "not good enough...not good enough...not good enough" to every effort the Palestinians made to meet them halfway. And all Arafat got for even trying to change was that stupid, pointless, humiliating personal siege he was put under in Ramallah and Netanyahu's completely unjustifiable campaign to force Arafat back into exile and replace him with a "Palestinian leadership" pf the Israeli government's choosing...never mind that no such "better" alternative "leadership ever even had the potential for emerging from Arafat being forced out, or that no such "leadership" would ever have been accepted as legitimate by the Palestinian people, thus making the very idea of Netanyahu even trying to dictate which Palestinians he would and would not agree to deal with futile and absurd. Nobody of any stature on the Palestinian side will ever accept anything short of outright independence as the end of the matter, it goes without saying that nothing short of independence will ever be seen as legitimate or worthwhile by rank-and-file grassroots Palestinians(who have at least as many valid reasons to distrust and fear Israel's leaders as Israelis have to fear and distrust Hamas.
And if you don't negotiate peace with the people who actually have the damn guns, you haven't made peace at all.
Both leaderships have made massive, stupid mistakes. Neither set of leaders can claim any moral superiority over the other. But, just as grassroots Israelis shouldn't have to suffer for this, neither should grassroots Palestinians. Forty-eight years of history proves that immiserating the Palestinian people can NEVER lead to the emergence of a better Palestinian leadership. So it's time to abandon immiseration and collective punishment, since we know they can never work. OK?
shira
(30,109 posts)The whole 90's? Rabin and Perez were doves looking for 2 states. Arafat met them halfway with terror attacks just half the week. I don't know what the hell you mean by Arafat meeting them halfway. In the 90's, Israel allowed the PA to administer their own control most of Gaza and areas A and B of the W.Bank. The first time Palestinians ever did that in all of history. Not meeting them halfway? Bullshit!
But you completely ignore the fact Israel has offered the Palestinians their own state, and you could care less that they not only rejected each offer (2000 and 2008) but responded with Intifada 2 and the 2008-09 war. Obviously, the PA isn't interested in their own state. They apparently believe occupation, settlements, colonialism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing & genocide is preferable to having pretty much all they've asked for WRT a 2 state solution. And it's quite obvious you think the same thing, so what the hell are you blabbing about?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The settlements split up the West Bank too much and take up too much land for a Palestinian state to be possible.
And you're still acting like Arafat made no genuine moves towards peace at all. You're still pretending it's all the PA's fault.
You will have to admit that there cannot be any further justification for any more settlement expansion at all, and that it's impossible for the immiseration of rank-and-file Palestinians ever to lead to a better Palestinian leadership if it hasn't come close too doing so by now.
Both leaderships are equally to blame. Stop pretending otherwise.
shira
(30,109 posts)So yeah, it was a true 2-state solution. You're putting forth a position more extreme than that of the PLO or Arab League.
And yet, both offers (2000 and 2008) were offers of contiguous W.Bank land. Israel could offer basically the same thing as they did in 2000. That was no bantustan solution like BDS proponents assert. In 2000, it was almost 100% equivalency to pre-'67 lines. In 2008, it was 100%. Both offers were rejected & you're making lame excuses.
Terror never stopped. Arafat had a revolving door policy for anyone he arrested for terror. They were still praised and rewarded for their terror activities under Arafat. You're acting like the Israelis didn't meet the Palestinians at least half-way. They met them more than half-way. Oslo 1 from 1993 didn't call for a halt to new settlements but Israel decided not to create new settlements, resolved to only building in existing ones.
Which is why Israel decided no more new settlements back in the mid 90's. You're wrong.
The Palestinians have been offered their own state many times since 1937. They've rejected all proposals. At some point you have to ask yourself why. This conflict should've been over back in 1937 or 1947 (Partition Plan). You'd probably blame Israel if Egypt and Jordan refused to make peace with Israel. Turns out Israel has held true to those peace treaties. There's no reason to suggest they wouldn't with the Palestinians.
See how that works? Israel already has a track record of accepting negotiated peace deals and keeping them. The PLO and Hamas? Not so much. There's no denying the facts.
shira
(30,109 posts)...to hate Jews who allegedly support all these make-believe atrocities? That's not to say settlers don't do a lot of bad shit, but you and I both know what's going on here. The IDF is accused of using nazi tactics. Israel is falsely accused of apartheid. All this incites hatred against Jews. We can see this throughout Europe today. Jews are leaving France in droves because France can't protect them. Don't blame Likud for conflating Jews to Zionists. The same Europe from 70 years ago is making a comeback. The mask is off...
And Zionism definitely is the civil rights movement of indigenous Jews returning to their ancestral & cultural homeland. Every bit as much as native Americans and aborigines doing the same thing WRT their ancestral and cultural homelands. Zionism was just accelerated due to the fact there was nowhere on earth Jews could be protected. The world refused to protect them. The world failed. Don't blame it on Zionism. You're inverting history. Denying the obvious.
Do you believe granting the Palestinians their own state is the Palestinian civil rights movement?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Palestinians and other Arabs were and are blameless in those crimes and should never have had to suffer for them.
Zionism forever stopped being a civil rights movement when it set up the Occupation in 1967 and started the illegimate snd illegal settlement project in 1973. At that moment, it reduced itself to being just another nationalist movement and all its original ideals were abandoned in favor of the essentially fascist goal of taking land for the sake of taking land. David Ben-Gurion himself always opposed the idea of building settlements in the West Bank and Gaza.
A civil rights movement stops being a civil rights movement the moment it takes away anyone else's rights.
The Native Americans never advocated putting white settler communities under tribal military occupation-and if we're using North America since 1800 as a metaphor, the Zionists after 1967 were Kit Carson and the Seventh Cavalry and the Palestinians were the Lakota.
Jewish people have a historical connection to the land of Israel, but not so much greater a connection than Palestinians that they are entitled to say "we have a right to be here and you don't".
Is Palestinian self-determination a civil rights movement? Not in and of itself. It has that potential only so long as it accepts Israel's existence(and it's ENOUGH for them to do so by saying "we recognize the State of Israel"-they shouldn't have to say anything more than Egypt and Jordan did)and agrees that, once a Palestinian state is established, all hostilities should cease(as, equally, the Israeli government should feel obligated to never again send troops into an part of a Palestinian state).
They do need to make the commitment to peace. And they also need a reason to believe that, unlike during the Nineties, they will get nothing for reaching out and turning from the armed struggle. They need to have an Israeli government to deal with that won't just keep saying "not enough...not enough...not enough...we're gonna keep expanding settlements and shipping in more settlers and imposing collective punishment on all for the acts of the few even though we're telling the world this is a 'peace process'".
It does go without saying that they can never live in freedom and dignity in any arrangement SHORT of statehood-forty-eight years of completely inhumane IDF rule and bigoted settler arrogance prove that Palestinians will never have any hope for anything positive or any form of freedom or democracy as long as the Occupation continues and as long as settlement "expansion" goes on.
Thank you for finally condemning the settlers. First time I've ever seen you admit here that any of them have done anything wrong. Up until now, you've seemed to take the view that keeping the settlements in place and growing is much more important than actually ending the fighting.
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm referring specifically to Arafat's uncle, Hitler's Mufti (al-Husseyni)....who became more popular the more Jews were attacked pre-1948.
You apparently think indigenous Jews (including survivors of the Holocaust) returning to their ancestral, historical, and cultural homeland was wrong...and that the intent was to replace the Palestinians there. Do you not realize how morally wrong that view is? But that's standard BDS propaganda.
Ben Gurion called for annexing Jerusalem, all of it. Like the rest of Judea, Jerusalem is part of the historical, cultural, and ancestral homeland of the Jews. The fact that you believe it's illegitimate and illegal for indigenous people to return to their homeland is disturbing. You're just repeating Hamas propaganda that Jews have no right to be anywhere within Israel. The PLO says the same thing in Arabic all the time. We can argue whether it was wise or stupid for Jews to set up most of their settlements in and around Jerusalem (the historic capital of Israel going back 3000 years), but illegal and illegitimate? No. The UN can't even pass a binding resolution stating that settlement activity is illegal, which goes to show it's not, no matter how much you cry about it.
That didn't happen.
The native Americans, if they had the power to reclaim sovereignty within their historic homeland, would have every right to occupy parts of America if America threatened and acted with genocidal intent against all native Americans. You'd be the first to defend them and that's a fact.
No one serious or significant says that. Arabs have full rights in Israel and Israel has offered the Palestinians their own states in the territories. What history books have you been reading?
So what you're really saying is Zionism pre-1967 was a civil rights movement. After 1967, not so much. The problem is Zionism is defined solely as the right for Jews to their own sovereign homeland. It has nothing to do with occupation and settlements. Many Zionists are against occupation and settlements, and most Zionists are for a genuine, peaceful 2-state solution. So much for your revisionist definition of Zionism.
You're pretending the PLO and Hamas stopped their armed struggle in the 90's. I've got news for you. They never did. So this is nonsense from you.
So you should be demanding that the PLO and Hamas take a fair offer like that of 2000, 2008, or the Geneva Initiative. This is why I don't buy that you really want 2 states and an end to all that you believe is bad with the current situation.
It's a minority of settlers who are the problem. If I had my way, they'd be forced to live in the Negev. Problem solved, end of story. Otherwise, I don't see a problem with any decent folks living in Judea. If the PLO and Hamas could prove they'd actually protect Jews in Gaza and the W.Bank - and accept Jews' rights to live anywhere within their historic homeland - the conflict would be over and done with. Most Israelis would demand it. I know I would.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)olive trees.
One of the examples provided seems to be about moving saplings, the other one seems to be about pruning.
Besides, it would be quite absurd if they destroyed their own source of income. It's not as if they would ever get compensated in any way. The idea that poor Palestinians would destroy one of their major sources of income just to blame settlers is in bad taste.
Your argument doesn't convince me at all.
Israeli
(4,161 posts)It all comes down to .......who do you believe .
Those that are pro-settlements , pro-settlers .........or those that are not .
Those that are for human rights .......or those that are just Right .
BTW .... My fact checking days are over when it comes to this OP.
Shame ......did you try us damned Leftists ???
Go to 'Rabbis for Human Rights' @ http://rhr.org.il/eng/
type in search ..'olive trees' .....
results = http://rhr.org.il/eng/?s=olive+trees&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Go
More in depth, ...try same thing at 'Ta’ayush'
http://www.taayush.org/?page_id=49
For videos try Israel Social TV ....results for " olive trees" =
http://tv.social.org.il/?s=olive+trees&orderby=post_date&order=DESC
Finally try 972 .
WATCH: Olive trees destroyed by settlers in South Hebron Hills
http://972mag.com/watch-olive-trees-destroyed-by-settlers-in-south-hebron-hills/52400/
********
Quote :.... Your argument doesn't convince me at all.
Hope the above helps .
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I think your links clinches it.
Israeli
(4,161 posts)...for others its just a pack of Leftist lies .
shira
(30,109 posts)How do you know whether it was settlers or not?
shira
(30,109 posts)....to catch events like this.
Hmm, why would anyone give away cameras if this wasn't happening?
Also, the olive harvest season had just started. It wouldn't make sense to cut down a tree at that time of the year. That's what Katzover was saying in the video.
================
The Israel Civil Authority compensates Palestinians for their trees when they're destroyed. So there is motivation to cut down the trees and blame settlers.
shira
(30,109 posts)Where's the evidence for this?
===================
If the IDF does this, then of course it's reprehensible & Israel's courts should deal with it harshly.
===================
And lemme guess. You don't believe Hamas uses human shields despite mountains of evidence that they do? Is that correct?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Source: B'Tselem, 1 Jan 2015
Even after Mukhsan's death, the IDF did not prohibit use of the "neighbor procedure," so the seven human rights organizations went back to court, on 18 August, and demanded that a temporary injunction be issued forbidding the IDF's use of the procedure. The High Court granted the application, and the temporary injunction remains in effect.
Testimonies given to B'Tselem indicate that IDF soldiers have continued to use the "neighbor procedure." Following the numerous instances in which the IDF violated the court order, the human rights organizations filed a contempt of court application with the court, and requested the court to impose a fine on the state and order the state to pay punitive sums for violation of the temporary injunction.
Read more: http://www.btselem.org/human_shields/neighbor_procedure
As you can see, the IDF habit of using human shield hasn't stopped. Abdulhadi Hantash's report is unconfirmed, but it's likely that at least some of the reported cases of the IDF using human shields are genuine.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The guy at isreallycool obviously has no arborist experience. Take a look at this picture of what pruned olive trees look like:
Pruning olive trees to help them recover from bushfire
Source: ABC news Australia, 2014-08-01
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-01/laharum-grove-pruned-trees-grampians/5640544
If you google "destroyed olive trees west bank" you get pictures of destroyed olive trees in the West Bank, and they don't look pruned to me.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)guess ya learns sumpin new everyday huh?
shira
(30,109 posts)....in order to keep olive trees healthy.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
shira
(30,109 posts)Does it look chopped down to you?
There are all kinds of photos related to that one tree, with the same woman crying. But from different positions and locations around the tree. What do you think is going on there?
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)I'm not sure if the tree is unsalvageable, but in its current state it won't grow any olives. Compare it to the lovingly pruned trees in the picture I provided.
shira
(30,109 posts)It doesn't look chopped down.
Why lie?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)and use the same "Pallywood" (hateful term) nonsense to further your goal that the Palestinians are just actors and liars.
Methinks your chickens will be coming home to roost sooner than later.
I would suggest that you rethink your position.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So maybe you should rethink that position as well?
shira
(30,109 posts)It's exactly what you accuse Hasbarists of doing. Crying 'antisemitism' WRT any criticism.
You do exactly that when you complain about bigotry regarding any criticism of any Palestinians.
I don't call anyone liars if there's nothing to be suspicious about. You do that a lot WRT Israelis, even when you have no reason to do so. So are you villifying them?
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)So this is a methodology going back almost three thousand years.
