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Van Jones, former Obama adviser, takes no prisoners in new anti-Keystone XL video (Original Post) wtmusic Jun 2013 OP
K/R. (nt) NYC_SKP Jun 2013 #1
The video is wrong Socialistlemur Jun 2013 #2
Not really known yet what dilbit does to pipes. wtmusic Jun 2013 #3
That's not true either Socialistlemur Jun 2013 #4
You should share your wisdom with the National Academy of Sciences wtmusic Jun 2013 #5
Tell them to contact me here and I can help Socialistlemur Jun 2013 #6
I like this dude. limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #7

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
2. The video is wrong
Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:00 AM
Jun 2013

He claims the fluid being pumped is "pipe eating gook". I don't think this guy has the education to understand what is being shipped....or he does know and he's setting up to pander.

The product produced in Canada is processed at the field or a nearby upgrader. It is heated to break up the molecular bonds, and the broken molecules are hydrogenated (hydrogen is extracted from natural gas and added to the broken molecules before they can reform). The end product depends on the amount of hydrogen added (the more hydrogen the better the quality, but if too much is added it's can reach diminishing returns). Some companies upgrade a portion of the oil and then mix the resulting light crude with the "tar" to make what they call a synbit. But the tar itself isn't pumped long distance. I think synbit does create more of an oil spill cleanup problem, but because the new pipeline isn't finished yet, there's a lot of oil moving by rail. I think rail transport is a lot less sensible.

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
3. Not really known yet what dilbit does to pipes.
Tue Jun 4, 2013, 10:31 AM
Jun 2013

The National Academy of Sciences is looking at that right now:

The committee will analyze whether transportation of diluted bitumen (dilbit) by transmission pipeline has an increased likelihood of release compared with pipeline transportation of other crude oils. Should the committee conclude that an increased likelihood of release exists, it will review the federal hazardous liquid pipeline facility regulations to determine whether they are sufficient to mitigate the increased likelihood of release.

In the first phase of the project, the committee will examine whether dilbit can affect transmission pipelines and their operations so as to create an increased likelihood of release when compared with other crude oils transported through pipelines. Should the committee conclude there is no increased likelihood of release or find there is insufficient information to reach such a conclusion, a second phase of the project will not be required and the committee will prepare a final report to the Office of Pipeline Safety (OPS) of the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA). This report may include recommendations for improving information to assess the likelihood of failure.


http://www8.nationalacademies.org/cp/projectview.aspx?key=49461

Dilbit requires higher pressure than heavy crude, so there will be a higher possibility of ruptures regardless of the content.

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
4. That's not true either
Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:12 PM
Jun 2013

Diluted bitumen is mixed to meet pipeline specs. These include density and viscosity. Nobody exceeds pressures. You know, a lot of what I read here seems to be poorly researched by individuals who lack experience. Maybe I should write a book about this subject?

wtmusic

(39,166 posts)
5. You should share your wisdom with the National Academy of Sciences
Tue Jun 4, 2013, 04:35 PM
Jun 2013

because they seem to be at a loss.

(Either that or you really don't know what you're talking about).

"Does Tar Sand Oil Increase the Risk of Pipeline Spills?

Recent pipeline spills may have been caused by the combination of aging infrastructure and new types of oil

An oil flood through an Arkansas subdivision on March 29 is just the most recent example of pipeline problems in the U.S. In recent weeks, months and years diesel has leaked from a pipeline into wetlands near Salt Lake City; oil has spilled into the Yellowstone River in Montana; and about 20,000 barrels of oil have spewed into the Kalamazoo River in Michigan. The question: Is the problem the pipelines themselves or what they carry?

The answer may be an unfortunate combination of the two. Certainly, the infrastructure has issues. The U.S. is crisscrossed by more than four million kilometers of such pipelines, many decades old. These pipelines spring hundreds of leaks every year, most small. The pipelines can fail for reasons ranging from a backhoe inadvertently striking one to the slow but steady weakening from corrosion. "It's not a matter of if, but when," says Susan Connolly, a resident of Marshall, Mich., right near where the Kalamazoo River spill occurred in 2010 as a result of external corrosion.

Critics charge that pipelines carrying diluted bitumen, or "dilbit"—a heavy oil extracted from tar sands mined in northern Alberta—pose a special risk because, compared with more conventional crude, they must operate at higher temperatures, which have been linked to increased corrosion. These pipelines also have to flow at higher pressures that may contribute to rupture as well. Environmental group Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) notes that pipelines in the upper Midwest that routinely carry oil from tar sands have spilled 3.6 times more oil per pipeline mile than the U.S. average. The Arkansas and Kalamazoo accidents both involved dilbit.

The chemistry of the tar sands oil could contribute to corrosion as well. In processing, the tar sands are boiled to separate the bitumen from the surrounding sand and water, and then mixed with diluent—light hydrocarbons produced along with natural gas—to make the oil less viscous and able to flow. But even so, the resulting dilbit is among the lowest in hydrogen as well as the most viscous, sulfurous and acidic form of oil produced today."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=tar-sand-oil-and-pipeline-spill-risk

Socialistlemur

(770 posts)
6. Tell them to contact me here and I can help
Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:18 PM
Jun 2013

I'm willing to help them. But I don't think the national Academy of Sciences is really a forum to discuss pipeline safety. This isn't really a science issue, it's simple engineering, metallurgy, and environmental protection. Bread and butter issues for a well trained engineer. There are some issues to consider, for example sometimes the Coker naphtha used to dilute the tar is loaded with organic acids. But this is more of a problem at high temperatures. Heavy oils in general have high acid numbers and this has to be taken into account. When I have had to review these designs I suggested thicker pipe walls and also the use of corrosion coupons to make sure they understand what's going on. But this is customary, and I'd guess they are doing it because if the pipe does corrode they have to lower the operating pressure, and this costs them a ton of lost earnings. Sometimes the public forgets there's areas where scientists don't thread, and this is one of them. If I were running a project team for a large pipeline, I wouldn't hire a single one, this just isn't their bailiwick.

limpyhobbler

(8,244 posts)
7. I like this dude.
Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:34 PM
Jun 2013
Van Jones: The real, and dirty, Obama scandal
Last week, members of the House of Representatives turned their attention to the biggest Obama scandal yet.

No, I do not mean the IRS or Benghazi. Those are more partisan witch hunt than true scandal, a point backed up by recent CNN polling that shows independents and moderates trust the White House's take.

I also do not mean the investigations of The Associated Press or Fox News reporter James Rosen. Both are worrying cases of the national security state trumping freedom of the press, but neither appear to have made it to the president's desk.

And I hate to break it to the many fans of the hit TV show "Scandal," but that is not what I am referring to, either.
...
http://us.cnn.com/2013/05/30/opinion/jones-obama-keystone-pipeline/index.html
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»Van Jones, former Obama a...