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GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 12:44 PM Sep 2012

Some emails can be stunning

This was one of them, from Dr Graham Turner (A scientist who works for CSIRO, and the author of A Comparison of The Limits to Growth with Thirty Years of Reality.

The email was published on Guy McPherson's blog as a comment to the blogpost "Let go, or be dragged".

Dear Chris, Len, and all,

In the 10 years since the CSIRO work you mention (Future Dilemmas), that modelling has been enlarged and extended – by a diminishing number of colleagues including myself. In particular, it was clearly important to search for solutions using our `stocks and flows’ simulation applied to the problems identified in the Future Dilemmas.

What follows is a summary of my personal reflections; they should not be interpreted as representing the views of CSIRO.

In brief, this recent work strongly confirms Chris’ observations. And I think it has implications for the system design (as opposed to system modelling) perspective in Richard Mochelle’s reply.

In the latest modelling, while I didn’t specify a steady-state economy (SSE) as an outcome, this is what effectively resulted from my attempts to lower GHG emissions, ease oil constraints and other environmental pressures, while keeping the economy functioning. But there are immense challenges, as outlined below, which I believe make the SSE outcome extremely unlikely.

For a reference:

Turner, G. M. (2011) Consumption and the Environment: Impacts from a System Perspective. In Landscapes of Urban Consumption (Ed, Newton, P. W.), pp.51-70, CSIRO Publishing, Collingwood.

and have some PPT presentations that summarise it. (Several of my other projects and publications find similar outcomes, even though they focus on different topics and details.)

On a side note relevant to the 1st of Chris’ points below, this work was an off-shoot of simpler work in 2010 for the Immigration Department looking (again) at the environmental and resource implications of different immigration (and population) levels. The Department eventually released that report, after months had passed, and after the Population Issues Paper. It was released on the 23rd December 2010. Not surprisingly it received little attention. There were other interesting aspects to the handling of this work; Mark O’Connor has generally documented these well in a piece for The Drum website.

But back to content…

While the modelling showed that it is technically feasible to achieve the SSE or to approach sustainability, there are important caveats. Even with my background as a technologist (applied physics) many of the technological assumptions I made were rather heroic; and of particular note, a reliance on imported oil was not eliminated.

But (putting these caveats aside for a moment) what was striking was the immensity and rapidity of change required. Population had to be stabilised (zero net immigration & 1.6 births/female); multiple substantial technological/engineering schemes had to be implemented simultaneously; consumption rates had to be substantially reduced; and most importantly, the working week had to diminish to 3-days by 2050.

I would judge that nothing short of a true social and political revolution (i.e., probably a “painful” process) would be required all these necessary changes. Feasible in principle? Yes. Likely? No.

And this is just for Australia. We can’t ignore the global context, and particularly the issue of oil constraints.

This has hit home even more strongly for me when I recently updated my comparison of the original 1970?s Limits to Growth scenario modelling with almost 40 years of data (from 1970 to 2010). This is published in:

Turner, G. M. (2012). On the cusp of global collapse? Updated comparison of the Limits to Growth with historical data. GAiA, 21(2), 116-124.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/oekom/gaia/2012/00000021/00000002/art00010

Essentially, we are still tracking on the `business-as-usual’ scenario, which sees a collapse occur through resource constraint. What is alarming, is that the key mechanism for the collapse, and the timing, appear to be playing out. It is not that resources (particularly, oil) run out at all, but that they become increasingly difficult to extract. This has the effect that the industrial system, services and agriculture are not adequately supported and output begins to collapse, followed by population.

In the model – and contrary to common understanding – this doesn’t happen some decades away, but at about 2015. Overall, the BAU scenario has rather startling alignment with contemporary events.

While we can never be certain, I don’t think that we can simply dismiss this as coincidence; too many of the ducks line up. There is a real prospect a collapse has effectively begun (but will it pan out as modelled, especially the timing?).

This does not mean that we should lose hope, become despondent and chuck it all in. On this point, I agree with Richard Mochelle: “do what we think OUGHT to be done, what MUST be done”. Unfortunately, surely certain wealthy miners agree with this approach but with much different aims?

Based on the research, I believe it’s time to create as many “lifeboats” as possible, in order to leap into these if necessary. In many on-the-ground ways this probably has much in common with a greenleap into a sustainable future. But the difference is likely to be that lifeboats depend more on bottom-up decentralised local initiatives. A focus on local food, water, energy, and social systems, right down to the household level. This is where I remain hopeful.

Best wishes,

Graham

The abstract of the paper is:

The Limits to Growth standard run scenario produced 40 years ago continues to align well with historical data that has been updated in this paper, following a 30-year comparison by the author. The scenario results in collapse of the global economy and environment, and subsequently the population. Although the modelled fall in population occurs after about 2030 - with death rates reversing contemporary trends and rising from 2020 onward - the general onset of collapse first appears at about 2015 when per capita industrial output begins a sharp decline. Given this imminent timing, a further issue this paper raises is whether the current economic difficulties of the global finan cial crisis are potentially related to mechanisms of breakdown in the Limits to Growth standard run scenario. In particular, contemporary peak oil issues and analysis of net energy, or energy return on (energy) invested, support the Limits to Growth modelling of resource constraints underlying the collapse, despite obvious financial problems associated with debt.


2015? Sounds about right to me. "Hello darkness our old friend, we've come to talk with you again..."
7 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Some emails can be stunning (Original Post) GliderGuider Sep 2012 OP
Kick nt Bigmack Sep 2012 #1
We are so not ready for this pscot Sep 2012 #2
I was thinking more like XemaSab Sep 2012 #3
2015 worldwide? Sounds extreme, barring an international conspiracy of some kind....but..... AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #4
I'm going to get the paper. We'll see. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #5
BTW, just to clarify, in case anyone misunderstood: AverageJoe90 Sep 2012 #6
I have been saying for years that when deniers say "the models are wrong," my reply... joshcryer Sep 2012 #7
 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
4. 2015 worldwide? Sounds extreme, barring an international conspiracy of some kind....but.....
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 07:48 PM
Sep 2012

I'm sorry, but unless there's a conspiracy worthy of the Alex Jones Show going on presently, or some truly extreme roll of proverbial dice(or a combination of both).....it looks like the general consensus will be more accurate at this point.
On the other hand, though, I can admit that, certainly, some regions are far worse off than others and I honestly wouldn't be all surprised if China in particular was indeed beginning to undergo a total collapse right around that time....The Chinese bubble can't hold up forever, and if China goes circa 2016, then I would expect another major, grinding, recession circa 2017-2018.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
5. I'm going to get the paper. We'll see.
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 07:56 PM
Sep 2012

The guy is a reputable scientist, much more given to data than speculation.

The world is heavily interconnected through its crumbling financial web. If Europe or China were to crash, would America survive?

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
6. BTW, just to clarify, in case anyone misunderstood:
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 08:39 PM
Sep 2012

I wasn't trying to say that he was part of a conspiracy or anything. What I was trying to say is that I just don't see a total collapse happening in those few years unless there were active and completely deliberate attempts to crash the world economy, instead of just sheer and uncaring criminal incompetence.

If China were to collapse, would America be done for? Barring some extreme circumstances such as WWIII(which is highly unlikely), not necessarily, especially if we were under a Democratic President like Obama, Clinton, or better yet, FDR, who knew how to get things done and pull us out of disaster. Even then, though, I would expect some pretty nasty short-term trouble and I would be very concerned about the possibility of the rise of extreme right domestic terrorism a'la the 1960s when the Klan was bombing synagogues and African-American churches, only perhaps 10x worse. It may even be worse than that: if you've ever come across the somewhat well-known white supremacist agitprop piece known as the Turner Diaries, the group of white supremacist militias in that book were not only planning nuclear terrorism, but mass genocide as well. I do worry that some psycho group in the near future may try to make William Pierce's fantasies come to life. And it may come at the cost of many thousands, maybe even a few million lives.

9/11 was bad. If this hypothetical scenario of mine pans out, 9/11 could end up being small potatoes compared to this next event. I hope it doesn't, but I'm afraid that it may happen anyhow........

joshcryer

(62,287 posts)
7. I have been saying for years that when deniers say "the models are wrong," my reply...
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 09:40 PM
Sep 2012

...is simply, "Yeah, they underestimate. They lowball."

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