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NickB79

(19,326 posts)
Thu Nov 9, 2023, 09:52 PM Nov 2023

Hydrogen blending in gas pipelines faces limits due to leakage: US DOE lab

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/102723-hydrogen-blending-in-gas-pipelines-faces-limits-due-to-leakage-us-doe-lab

In Argonne's modeling, blending 30% hydrogen by volume into gas pipelines yielded a relatively modest 6% decrease in lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions. A major factor in Argonne's estimate was its finding that hydrogen blending at that level can double leakage from transmission lines.

The lifecycle benefits of pipeline blending came chiefly from the lower emissions tied to hydrogen production and end-use combustion. However, injecting hydrogen into pipelines led to higher transmission and distribution emissions and greater energy demand in compressor stations, largely wiping out the upstream and downstream benefits.

"This is largely because I am replacing a fossil molecule with a green molecule, but much of that is offset with the compression footprint and also the leakage," Amgad Elgowainy, a senior scientist and distinguished fellow at Argonne, said during an Oct. 26 webinar.

The US Energy Department hosted the webinar to highlight findings from the first phase of its HyBlend initiative, which aims to remove barriers to transporting hydrogen in gas pipelines.


Without the ability to cheaply utilize existing natural gas lines, hydrogen is largely DOA given the cost of building a nationwide pipeline system dedicated to hydrogen.
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Hydrogen blending in gas pipelines faces limits due to leakage: US DOE lab (Original Post) NickB79 Nov 2023 OP
Yes... Think. Again. Nov 2023 #1
You yourself have said that hydrogen can be used for "combustion" OKIsItJustMe Nov 2023 #2
If you recall... Think. Again. Nov 2023 #3
Then you're selling hydrogen short OKIsItJustMe Nov 2023 #4
The Europeans are indeed studying utilizing existing natural gas pipelines NickB79 Nov 2023 #5
Yes, they are. They are also constructing entirely new pipelines. OKIsItJustMe Nov 2023 #6
This zombie baby of the Natural Gas industry and it's green beard allies just won't die. hunter Nov 2023 #7
Care to elaborate? OKIsItJustMe Nov 2023 #8

Think. Again.

(9,358 posts)
1. Yes...
Thu Nov 9, 2023, 09:59 PM
Nov 2023

Hydrogen leaks easier, so existing natural gas lines would have to be lined somehow or replaced, if we end up wanting to transport H2 by using them.

Leakproof H2 tanks are probably better.

From what I've read, we won't be using H2 in the same ways that we use natural gas anyway (as a combustion fuel for cooking, heating, etc.) so it's kind of a moot point.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,968 posts)
2. You yourself have said that hydrogen can be used for "combustion"
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 01:32 AM
Nov 2023

It is a potential candidate for replacing natural gas in industrial applications.

Strangely, Europeans seem to think that Hydrogen can be used, “without the ability to cheaply utilize existing natural gas lines.”

A hydrogen strategy for a climate-neutral Europe


Infrastructure needs for transporting hydrogen will remain limited as demand will be met initially by production close or on site and in certain areas blending with natural gas might occur, but planning of medium range and backbone transmission infrastructure should begin. Infrastructure for carbon capture and use of CO2 will be required to facilitate certain forms of low-carbon hydrogen.

A condition for a widespread use of hydrogen as an energy carrier in the EU is the availability of energy infrastructure for connecting supply and demand. Hydrogen may be transported via pipelines, but also via non-network based transport options, e.g. trucks or ships docking at adapted LNG terminals, insofar as technically feasible. Transport can happen as pure gaseous or liquid hydrogen, or bound in bigger molecules that are easier to transport (e.g. ammonia or liquid organic hydrogen carriers). Hydrogen can also provide cyclical or seasonal storage, e.g. in salt caverns ⁵⁴ , to produce electricity to cover peak demand, secure hydrogen supply, and allow electrolysers to operate flexibly.

The infrastructure needs for hydrogen will ultimately depend on the pattern of hydrogen production and demand and transportation costs and are linked to the different phases of the development of hydrogen production, increasing significantly after 2024. Furthermore, infrastructure to support carbon capture use and storage may be needed for the production of low-carbon hydrogen and synthetic fuels. Following the stepwise approach outlined above demand for hydrogen may initially be met by production on-site (from local renewables sources or natural gas) in industrial clusters and coastal areas through existing “point-to-point” connections between production and demand. The existing rules for so-called closed distribution systems, direct lines or exemptions in the gas and electricity markets may provide guidance on how to address this ⁵⁵ .


I think the problem may be that Americans believe that Hydrogen will replace Natural Gas following the Natural Gas model. i.e. Hydrogen will be produced in large facilities, and transported all over the country via pipelines or tank trucks. (Unlike Natural Gas) hydrogen can be produced anywhere there is a supply of water and electricity.

Think. Again.

(9,358 posts)
3. If you recall...
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 04:30 AM
Nov 2023

...I myself wrote that I felt H2 was best for heavy transport and equipment combustion "engines" which would have it stored in on-board tanks.

I never said I thought it could be used as a replacement for natural gas in combustion applications such as cooking and heating gas which is what the majority of existing natural gas pipelines are used for.

So, I have to agree with the "Europeans (who) seem to think that Hydrogen can be used, “without the ability to cheaply utilize existing natural gas lines.”

OKIsItJustMe

(19,968 posts)
4. Then you're selling hydrogen short
Fri Nov 10, 2023, 08:17 PM
Nov 2023

Hydrogen gas can be used to power heavy transport and equipment. It can also be used as a drop-in replacement for natural gas in many situations.

British Gas: How might hydrogen help heat our homes?



The UK government is looking at plans to replace natural gas with hydrogen gas – because it’s much more environmentally friendly.

But if this happens, it will be a gradual process that takes years, rather than something that changes all at once. And that means it shouldn’t be extra hassle or expense for homeowners. In fact, some of the biggest boiler manufacturers in the UK have promised that hydrogen-ready boilers won’t cost any more than a regular gas-powered boiler.1

The first step in any hydrogen transition would likely be introducing a 20% hydrogen blend into the UK mains supply. Most boilers would be able to use this hydrogen blend without any problems. In fact, many new boilers are already labelled ‘hydrogen-blend ready’ in case this first move towards hydrogen happens.

In the meantime, boiler manufacturers are working on a new ‘hydrogen-ready’ standard which will mean the UK can switch as easily as possible to 100% hydrogen much further down the line. The important thing to realise is that ‘hydrogen-ready’ boilers are still in development, whereas ‘hydrogen-blend ready’ boilers are widely available.



NickB79

(19,326 posts)
5. The Europeans are indeed studying utilizing existing natural gas pipelines
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 10:08 AM
Nov 2023
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-takes-steps-toward-developing-hydrogen-pipeline-network-2023-03-02/

“In the ongoing feasibility study, Gassco will look at several technical solutions for transporting low-carbon hydrogen, which includes blending of hydrogen in today's gas pipelines, complete conversion of a current gas pipeline, and a possible new pipeline,” says Rasmussen.

The decision is still to be made on whether to retrofit an existing natural gas pipeline – a pure hydrogen pipeline would need to address the peculiarities of the gas which can cause embrittlement of steel components and is leaky compared to methane – or to build a new pipeline.

“The studies we have carried out so far show that the pipeline network can be used to transport hydrogen. However, hydrogen will lead to changed operating conditions (pressure, capacity, etc.) in the pipeline network, and additional studies are needed,” he says.

“All options will require a qualification/requalification from a classification society in terms of technical and safety issues, and studies is this area are ongoing. Should an existing pipeline be recommended modifications will be required.”


See also: https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/jrc-news-and-updates/blending-hydrogen-eu-gas-system-2022-01-19_en

OKIsItJustMe

(19,968 posts)
6. Yes, they are. They are also constructing entirely new pipelines.
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 11:52 AM
Nov 2023

The Germans are already working on it


Energy News: German companies transform gas pipelines into hydrogen network

By Anela Dokso 20/12/2022

Three German gas distribution companies have joined forces to transform current gas pipelines into a hydrogen transportation network that links the north and south of the nation and surrounding countries.

The first section of the pipeline, which would link the eastern part of Thuringia to the northern port of Lubmin, was to be operational by 2025, according to announcements made by Gascade, Ontras, and Terranets. By 2028, Baden Wurttemberg and Bavaria would be further south, as would Rhineland-Palatinate.

The Flow project would employ existing high-pressure gas pipelines that span 1100 kilometers as a north-to-south route for carrying hydrogen. Up to 20 gigawatts of feed-in capacity might be provided by the infrastructure.

Bornholm, a Danish island, will be connected to the network in 2027, while Austria, the Czech Republic, Poland, and France will be connected starting in 2030.

hunter

(38,393 posts)
7. This zombie baby of the Natural Gas industry and it's green beard allies just won't die.
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 03:39 PM
Nov 2023

They don't care if the math doesn't work. That's not the point.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,968 posts)
8. Care to elaborate?
Sat Nov 11, 2023, 06:51 PM
Nov 2023

It’s not as if the Natural Gas industry is alone in this.

IPCC: The evidence is clear: the time for action is now. We can halve emissions by 2030.



We have options in all sectors to at least halve emissions by 2030

Limiting global warming will require major transitions in the energy sector. This will involve a substantial reduction in fossil fuel use, widespread electrification, improved energy efficiency, and use of alternative fuels (such as hydrogen).



Reducing emissions in industry will involve using materials more efficiently, reusing and recycling products and minimising waste. For basic materials, including steel, building materials and chemicals, low- to zero-greenhouse gas production processes are at their pilot to near-commercial stage.

This sector accounts for about a quarter of global emissions. Achieving net zero will be challenging and will require new production processes, low and zero emissions electricity, hydrogen, and, where necessary, carbon capture and storage.



Several nations are pursuing “Green Hydrogen” as part of their strategy to combat “Climate Change.”

You say “the math doesn’t work.” That’s what “Climate Skeptics” say about “Climate Change” as well… (They don’t like the answers, so, they question the calculations.)
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