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Judi Lynn

(160,662 posts)
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 08:24 AM Apr 2018

Court sees if church solar panels break electricity monopoly


Emery P. Dalesio, Ap Business Writer
Updated 9:24 am, Saturday, April 14, 2018

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) — North Carolina's highest court is taking up a case that could force new competition on the state's electricity monopolies.

The state Supreme Court on Tuesday will consider the Utilities Commission's decision to fine clean-energy advocacy group NC WARN for putting solar panels on a Greensboro church's rooftop and then charging it below-market rates for power.

The commission told NC WARN that it was producing electricity illegally and fined the group $60,000. The group said it was acting privately and appealed to the high court.

If the group prevails, it could put new pressure on Duke Energy's monopoly. State regulators say a ruling for NC WARN would allow companies to install solar equipment and sell power on site, shaving away customers and forcing Duke Energy to raise rates on everyone else.

More:
https://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Court-sees-if-church-solar-panels-break-12834123.php
7 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Court sees if church solar panels break electricity monopoly (Original Post) Judi Lynn Apr 2018 OP
They could have mercuryblues Apr 2018 #1
While solar energy is not as bad as the fastest growing sources of energy on this planet, coal... NNadir Apr 2018 #2
Are you offering that there are no future solutions to the problems you see with solar energy? Vinnie From Indy Apr 2018 #3
Yes, yes, no, yes, respectively. NNadir Apr 2018 #4
This is obviously an area that you have given quite a bit of thought. Vinnie From Indy Apr 2018 #5
Thanks for asking. NNadir Apr 2018 #6
It will take me a minute to red the links you provided. I appreciate it! Vinnie From Indy Apr 2018 #7

mercuryblues

(14,556 posts)
1. They could have
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 09:19 AM
Apr 2018

just as easily sold the panels to the church. Then financed the payments for 20 years or so. This is a court battle they want. I hope the clean energy group wins and wins big.

NNadir

(33,583 posts)
2. While solar energy is not as bad as the fastest growing sources of energy on this planet, coal...
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 10:05 AM
Apr 2018

...and gas, it is fraudulent to characterize it as "clean energy."

It's marginally better than gas, but since it currently requires gas to back it up, and therefore entrenches the unsustainable gas industry, any effect is trivial.

In thirty years, these panels will be electronic waste, and future generations will live with the onus of cleaning up the awful mess made by them, both in eventually abandoned mines where the stuff to make them is currently being produced - at huge health consequences for the miners and human beings in mining regions - and of course in the ultimate landfills where this garbage will end up.

We don't give a rat's ass about future generations, and of course since we don't care, we are willing to pat ourselves on the back and declare that this energy is "clean" while adding further burdens on the very people we are robbing blindly, our children, our grandchildren, their great grandchildren...everyone who comes after us.

With Trumpian scale lying, we keep saying, insipidly that solar energy is "clean."

It isn't. Batteries, should they ever become viable on a macroscopic scale for either "off grid" or grid based applications, contain toxic materials, waste energy via as required by the 2nd law of thermodynamics, and involve vast increases in mining. In the case of the Tesla batteries, the mining involves a conflict metal, cobalt, mined under slave like conditions run by African warlords.

From where I sit, this certainly isn't about so called "Christian Principles." It's about selective attention.

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
3. Are you offering that there are no future solutions to the problems you see with solar energy?
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 10:40 AM
Apr 2018

Are you also advocating the abandonment of this sector of energy development?

Would you say that maybe you are being "selectively attentive" to current problems with solar? Would that be fair?

NNadir

(33,583 posts)
4. Yes, yes, no, yes, respectively.
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 12:10 PM
Apr 2018

I've convinced myself, after 30 years of reading almost obsessively in environmental science, engineering, and energy - almost all of it in the primary scientific literature - that the most critical factor in environmental sustainability is the energy to mass ratio as well capacity utilization.

(If you scroll through my journal on this website, you will get a small indication of the things I look at and which I share, albeit quite uselessly.)

The energy to mass ratio of solar energy is absurdly low, and the capacity utilization is also absurdly low. The big lie foisted by the so called "renewable energy" industry and its credulous supporters (who mean well, but are doing harm) is that a "watt" is a unit of energy. It is not. It's a unit of power. The lie consists of representing peak power as if it were average continuous power. It isn't.

Therefore 99% of the time when someone is talking about "100 MW of solar energy," given that the capacity utilization of solar cells is seldom more than 10% they are really talking about "10 MW" of average continuous power. Moreover if this energy is stored - which is seldom the case - some the energy is lost as waste heat.

All forms of energy that require the processing of mass have embodied energy, and this includes as well the hand waving panacea of "we'll recycle it."

Who are the "we" in this glib rote statement?

The "we" in question is actually not us at all; it's future generations, who will live in a seriously degraded environment, with far fewer resources - we have mined all the best ores of many of the most important elements in the periodic table, leaving behind only leaching tailings - and few viable energy sources.

Yet we have the unmitigated gall, the hypocrisy, the contempt, the undiluted indifference to insist that they will do what we have been unable to do and have not bothered to do in our long lives.

Since they will have little energy available to them, where is the energy to come from even to collect this "distributed" waste from "distributed energy" never mind the energy (and materials) needed to reprocess it?

We "invested" over one trillion dollars in the last ten years on this future toxic waste, solar PV cells, and another trillion on wind. I've lived through half a century of the hype about it. Combined with the equally useless and toxic wind industry, these forms of energy produced, as of 2016, less than 10 exajoules of energy out of the 576 exajoules being consumed then.

I covered the reality of so called "renewable energy," referring to the OECD World Energy Outlook in a predictably ignored post on this website:

The Growth of "Renewable" Energy Has Exceeded 2007 World Energy Outlook Projections by 55%!

Here's excerpts focusing the reality without the distraction of my derisive sarcasm:

...According to the quoted "renewables will save us" correspondent above - you hear this a lot - "coal is dead." He or she says that the industry couldn't possible survive without government support, because so called "renewable energy" is so wonderful and so cheap.

You hear this whopper a lot - from correspondents like the one I've quoted above - but the reality is somewhat different:

Irrespective of this wonderful information - and trust me, I wish it were so, that "coal is dead," since I am opposed to all dangerous fossil fuels - in 2016 according to table 2.2 - coal produced 157.2 exajoules of humanity's energy in 2016. This compares with 96.8 exajoules that it produced in 2000. This makes it the second largest form of primary energy utilized on this planet, after the dangerous fossil fuel oil, which in 2016 produced 183.7 exajoules of energy compared with 153.7 exajoules in 2000. The third largest source of primary energy is dangerous natural gas, which in 2016 produced 125.9 exajoules of energy, compared with 86.1 exajoules in 2000.

Thus in the "percent talk" with which purveyors of the "renewables are wonderful" rhetoric abuse language, the dangerous fossil fuels have increased, since the year 2000, respectively for dangerous coal, dangerous oil, and dangerous natural gas have increased respectively by 62.5%, 19.6%, and 39.2% since the year 2000.

In absolute terms, as opposed to "percent talk," dangerous coal, dangerous oil, and dangerous natural gas have increased respectively by 60.5, 30.1, and 39.2 exajoules since 2000...



...In the period between 2000 and 2016 world energy demand grew in absolute terms by 155.96 exajoules, and in percent talk, 83% of that growth was covered by dangerous fossil fuels.

In "percent talk," in 2000, 81% of the world's energy was provided by dangerous fossil fuels, in 2016, 82% of the world's energy was so provided. Thus even in "percent talk" the world's dependence on dangerous fossil fuels has not decreased; on the contrary it has increase, albeit by a small amount.

Measured in exajoules, the use of dangerous fossil fuels overall has risen by 129.7 exajoules, which is the equivalent of adding more than another United States to the world energy disaster, the United States being the nation on this planet with the highest per capita energy consumption on the planet, and nation of excess. (If the rest of the world consumed energy at the per capita rate of the United States, we'd be talking in zetajoules and not exajoules.)...

...Now let's turn to so called "other renewable energy." In 2000, "other renewable energy" - which includes solar and wind energy provided 2.5 exajoules of energy; in 2016 it provided 9.4 exajoules of energy.

Um...um...um...

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, so let's change it into "percent talk."

In "percent talk," "RENEWABLE ENERGY" grew by an astounding 275%!!!!!!!!!!!!"


The figures for nuclear, biomass and hydroelectric can be found in the original text, which frankly, I wrote in extreme anger as I approach the end of my life, - anger that lies as much with myself as with others as I was a onetime supporter of this failed experiment - over what we have done to our decendents using the lies we told ourselves.

As far as I'm concerned, the vast resources squandered on solar energy, supported by half a century of rote mindless cheering (in which, to my regret, I was once a participant), are a crime against all future generations, one of many such crimes, but a crime nonetheless.

History will not forgive us; nor should it.

Thanks for asking.

Have a pleasant Sunday afternoon.

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
5. This is obviously an area that you have given quite a bit of thought.
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 01:33 PM
Apr 2018

I appreciate your willingness to evangelize on the topic.

I am curious to know what you think is the correct path to address the world's energy needs.

Thanks for taking time to write so much on this topic.

Cheers!

NNadir

(33,583 posts)
6. Thanks for asking.
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 05:35 PM
Apr 2018

My view is regrettably that too much damage has been done to restore a significant fraction of what has been lost or save that which is currently threatened, but this said, were I in charge - which I never will be - I know what I would do.

A rather long post on another website from a few years back - some links in the references are dead, but most are intact - I gave the most complete statement of my views: Current World Energy Demand, Ethical World Energy Demand, Depleted Uranium and the Centuries to Come

With some minor (and wholly technical) changes, this post expresses the views I still more or less hold, although my hostility to so called "renewable energy" is rapidly increasing, particularly since the coast line of my beautiful state, New Jersey is about to be converted into a wind turbine industrial park.

While I believe that our current nuclear infrastructure has performed extremely well (cf. Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power (Pushker A. Kharecha* and James E. Hansen Environ. Sci. Technol., 2013, 47 (9), pp 4889–4895)) despite catcalls from people with very poor thinking skills, I think it is time to move to fast spectrum reactors, this to eliminate the need for all energy related mining for several centuries.

I recently obtained a scanned copy of this book from 1966: Fast Breeder Reactors 1st Edition Proceedings of the London Conference on Fast Breeder Reactors Organized by the British Nuclear Energy Society, 17th–19th May 1966.

Leafing through it, I'm struck with awe.

This work is a transcription of a meeting of prominent nuclear scientists and engineers exploring ideas around what was then a very new technology being explored in a time that uranium was thought to be in limited supply. Not only are the talks transcribed, but also the questions asked and discussions of the questions asked are transcribed.

It is a remarkable document, given that it took place at the height of the cold war and that the discussion included American, British, French, German, Japanese and Russian scientists in a frank and open exchange of views.

It was written in a time before powerful computers, at a time when the tools, instruments and techniques of modern chemistry and materials science were only crudely developed, at a time when nuclear power was an afterthought of nuclear armaments, and still...and still...

Yet the things discussed were filled with original and frankly, valid, thought. They were creative, innovative, and startlingly realistic. Many of the questions asked in 1966 have clear answers now, we know a great deal more than we did then.

Fast fission is the only reasonable approach left to us. (Most existing nuclear reactors are not fast reactors, but a few can demonstrate similar breeding were they fueled by the thorium waste left over from lanthanide mining.)

I am acutely aware of the fact that I am very much a voice in the Wilderness, having had the occasion yesterday to confront a very stupid man from the wrongly praised Sierra Club hawking a "100% renewable New Jersey by 2050" that will never come, any more than any of tens of thousands of similar statements over the last half a century purported we'd be "there" with so called "renewable energy" "by 2020" or "by 2000" and so on proved to be true.

(Ironically this was a panel discussion at the "New Jersey March for Science" where everyone was wearing "Facts Matter" buttons.)

Facts don't matter, either in the Sierra Club or in the Republican Party.

Both are guilty of deliberate, inflexible, mindless and insistent ignorance, about which they chant in defiance of reality. As a person who lives in the wilderness - albeit the intellectual wilderness, and not the biological or ecological wilderness - I extremely object to the rhetoric of the New Jersey Sierra Club which is working with our government to destroy the wilderness represented by New Jersey's continental shelf biome.

The "by such and such a date" rhetoric in political discourse with reference to "renewable energy" is a cynical effort to dump responsibility that we are ourselves have declined to take upon a generation now in infancy, adolescence, and all generations thereafter, as I stated earlier.

I've been hearing this bullshit for half a century, and if I'm the only one left who can say, "Fool me once, shame on you..." who is unwilling to remain someone who will not continue to be fooled, again and again and again, well, there's nothing I can do about it.

I'm pissing in the wind I know, the soon to be industrialized wind, which will be safe for neither birds, nor fish, nor human beings, but since you were kind enough to ask, this is what I think.

One thing is for sure. If we really gave a shit about the wilderness, we wouldn't be tearing it up with trucks and ships sent to install wind turbines that will be either landfill or rotting useless eyesores in less than 20 years.

Thanks for asking.

Have a nice evening.

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
7. It will take me a minute to red the links you provided. I appreciate it!
Sun Apr 15, 2018, 09:00 PM
Apr 2018

Thank you for posting!

I will get back to you after I have digested and contemplated your ideas.

Cheers!

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