What is men's Liberation to you?

[tech_smythe]

Men's liberation to me, means being liberated not just from the "patriarchal standards" as men we're expected to live up to... but from women as well, who hold up those same, restraining standards.

It means that I can be as gay and flaming as i want (Im not) without being judged harshly by women or men.
It means I can love my partner, man or woman, without chains.
It means that I can expect the same level of respect from women as I give.

It means that everyone is treated based on WHO they are, not WHAT they are.

What does men's lib mean to you?

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. It means that my sons can choose the life they wish.

And society and law will facilitate it... not conscript or divert them into some other role.

[redqueen]

2. "The patriarchy" does not mean men. It is a power structure.

And yes, many women are invested in it, and they work to maintain it... by being insulting and dismissive toward men who are SAHD's, who don't act macho enough, etc.

[Zalatix]

3. Wow, I didn't think ANY human being was sharp enough to see that.

"Thanks" and "kudos" doesn't even come close to cutting what you deserve here.

[steve2470]

4. excellent post, thank you ! nt

[Bonobo]

5. It means being free from the same sexist stereotypes that feminists rally against.

Being born with a penis does not need to mean that you spend your time:

1.) Working your fingers to the bone until you are too old to do it.

2.) Being physically and emotionally separated from your family so you can do 1.)

3) Doing 1.) so that you can "earn" the love of a partner who expects you to do 1.)

4.) Unable to express love for other men as friends that your care deeply about.

5.) Feeling inadequate if you are not the physical ideal male (tall, muscular, handsome, etc.)

I am sure there are many more.

[tech_smythe]

7. What in the name of hades are you on about?

My last boyfriend was "manlier" than most straight guys!
In fact i've never been interested in a guy who couldn't give me a challenge in a sparring match!
Of course I have that same standard for women (omfg my exwife was amazing)

My relations ships crashed for the usual reasons, communication.
that has nothing to do with being gay or straight!

so... please enlighten me, because either your writing needs work, or my reading comprehension does because nothing of what you typed makes a lick of sense coming from a gay man.

[bemildred]

8. Being able to live your life without holding down some shitty job?

With a shitty boss who cares for nothing but him or her self?

[ElboRuum]

9. Liberation...

Of any sort means the change in status from being forced into a position or an action to an ability to choose not to be forced into that position or action.

It does not mean freedom from anything. People will judge. Society as a whole will judge. Culture will determine how it feels about it. Liberation means that no one or no thing, regardless of how they may feel about it, regardless of what they may say about it, can act materially against a person exercising that choice to prevent them from doing so.

You can't control how a society responds. You can only allow them to acclimate to the idea that it really is none of their concern.

[tech_smythe]

10. thank you webster but that wasn't the question...

I fail students who give pat answers like that.
it means they haven't grasped the material enough to be able reprocess the information and figure out what it means to THEM

so does it mean anything to you or are you just trolling?

women's Lib is a great thing.
but in order for that to fully happen we need men's lib...

men need to change, and more importantly, women need to LET men change.
in many ways it's easy for me. I'm bi, looking to get into a gay relationship... I drop out of the equation automatically.

that, however, doesn't change the fact that the equation needs to be changed.

[ElboRuum]

13. Perhaps those students should have their grades reexamined...

Because their teacher, if expecting a particular response, should frame the question better.

You ask what it means to me. I answered. You thought the answer was "pat". Fair enough. I don't know how that's trolling, but I suppose a lecture was warranted.

Just a question, though. How do you think that being bi and looking to get into a gay relationship drops you out of the equation?

[lumberjack_jeff]

11. Sure it means freedom.

Of any sort means the change in status from being forced into a position or an action to an ability to choose not to be forced into that position or action.

It does not mean freedom from anything.

Compulsory anything is an absence of freedom. Cultural norms are powerful; often powerful enough to create a defacto mandate. An example: Everyone knows that dads who sleep with their children are perverts, while moms who do so are simply protective. This creates attitudes which serve as compelling mandates. It is a social attitude that binds you.

[ElboRuum]

12. Liberation...

"Cultural norms are powerful; often powerful enough to create a defacto mandate."

Liberation in this context would be the realization that a "defacto mandate" isn't a mandate at all. Liberation begins with resistance to cultural norms. You change cultural norms by resisting them. Liberation is a process, not an end result.

[ZenLefty]

14. That's how I think about it too.

Ice T said something like "you can't control the way ignorant people think, but you can damn sure control how it affects you personally." That tends to be my school of thought. To me, liberation is being liberated from feeling like you have to be a certain kind of person because that's what society dictates to you. It means being your own person and not worrying about placating anyone around you. If you like NASCAR and GMC trucks and rodeos, more power to you. If you like to collect antique dolls and dress them up next to your stuffed animals, knock yourself out. Be liberated from the constraints of society.

And like you said, no one should be able to act materially against you exercising your choice. There should be no law prohibiting me from going to the rodeo or dressing up dolls, based on my gender.

Guess I'd be a failed student too.

[tech_smythe]

15. Actually you'd get an A

you aren't reciting a fact from a dictionary, you're showing that you digested the information and are capable of stating your own understanding on it.
exactly what i teach my students.

regurgitating facts and figures doesn't make you capable.
being to turn around and explain what it means to you, that is understanding. When you understand something, you can work with it.

You clearly understood the question.

[ElboRuum]

16. And you fail... again.

That is NOT the question you asked. You asked, "what does it mean to you". Just because you wanted a different answer doesn't mean that the answer was less relevant or meaningful. It simply means that if you want me to redefine terms in the most personal of manners, in the way you claim to be interested, you could simply just have said as much, although I doubt that my answer would have changed heavily as a result.

If you insist on pushing the issue with me, fine. The least you could do, if you intend to slag me off or make some smug smear about how if I was taking your class, I'd fail, is do me the courtesy of responding to my posts directly, rather than doing so as you have here, as a sideswipe.

[tech_smythe]

17. what'd be the point?

you've made your understanding known.
I don't fight pointless battles that have won themselves.
you continue to prove my point.

Rage all you want. you failed because you don't understand the question.

When you've grown up, you'll understand.

[ElboRuum]

18. Please.

You're right, I have made it known, and still you fail to comprehend a response that you did not expect. The battle was pointless at your first swing and yes I do continue to prove your point, which has been since this started, that you do not comprehend nor wish to, a point you've made whether you realize it or not.

Rage? Who's angry? I'm very amused by this. You got your yarbles in a twist and did something relatively stupid, you questioned someone's intelligence/education, got the very reaction to such a thing that any person with any sense could expect, and then double down on the fail by saying that person might understand if they "grow up".

[Zalatix]

19. Part of it means when you don't get responses like this to simple comments about sexist jokes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002482345

OP: "When men tell sexist jokes and pass around negative stereotypes about men, it's still wrong."

Answer: "Maybe after men have been discriminated against for a couple of centuries or so."