Latin America
Related: About this forumLies on Capitol Hill Cubans - Spaniard, Swede admit their errors to press re:Paya [English article]
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/survivors-2nd-car-deadly-cuba-car-crash-16887387#.UBbYG0QVk7Aexcerpt:
Carromero and Modig, members of center-right political parties in their home countries, entered Cuba on tourist visas but acknowledged working with dissidents. Modig said he first came to Cuba in 2009 to meet with dissidents, and on this trip they were to meet with Paya, give him 4,000 euros ($4,900) for his opposition work and help organize dissident political youth groups.
Cuba calls the government opponents "counterrevolutionaries" and accuses them of accepting foreign funding to undermine the Communist government.
Modig offered an apology for bringing money to the dissidents.
"I understand that these activities are not legal in Cuba and I would like to apologize for having come to this country to realize illicit activities," he said, according to a Spanish translation of his comments.
Cuban authorities have suggested that Carromero could face prosecution in relation to the crash.
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You could say the US policy is to blame for the death of this nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize
Spanish, will look for translation, basically the Swede admitted to bringing 6,000 from a Republican group that accepts USAID money to Paya. The Swede and the Spaniard confirm the accident story vs. the conspiracy theory invented by Paya's daughter about a second vehicle that pushed them off the road.
Busted. It's illegal to enter as a tourist to engage in political work in Cuba, worse if you bring 6 grand in for that.
http://www.capitolhillcubans.com/2012/07/update-on-castros-european-hostages.html
This post claims Castro is holding the Europeans as hostages, Loba going loca. UPDATE THIS (they don't want to)
La Loba = Ileana 'La Loba Feroz' Ros-Lehtinen head of House Foreign Affairs and right wingnut
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)flamingdem
(39,333 posts)just as the Cubans have been saying regarding Alan Gross etc. USAID money is getting these right wing foolz in trouble!
When will they learn. Tellin' ya. Now Angel Carramero says "just focus on getting me out of here" as if there is no penalty for killing two Cubans? (And subverting their system). Hope he likes rice and beans.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)Are they going to do that?
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)doesn't mean I have a direct connection to the Ministry of the Interior in La Habana!
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)And I said I'd believe the people if they admitted wrongdoing.
The question is now whether they jail this guy and if they don't, why not?
You're talking Alan Gross level charges here.
What makes this guy, someone who killed someone because of their negligence, immune?
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)What I'm wondering is whether they'll charge him for the accident, the illicit political activities or both. I don't know their laws but I read he would get 1 to 10 years for vehicular manslaughter. Maybe about the same as here.
Gross had made many trips before they finally popped him. It's not like their security organization is that great really and they're pretty loose about letting people in. No doubt there are more of this type lurking around there.
By the time they arrested Gross he had made a half a million I believe on his USAID sourced contracts, something like that..
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)flamingdem
(39,333 posts)send them home?
What is your theory?
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)I don't have a theory. But I do think that if all these allegations floating around about the guy he should be in prison. If he's not then maybe the allegations are propaganda.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)is documented very well and confirmed by the opposition leader Elizardo Sanchez. The crazies are even recognizing that it happened. You can't invent around these things there's too much forensic evidence plus the text messages sent to Sweden to the father that confirm there was no second car and they simply had an accident.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)It's clear it was an accident and I don't know why it keeps being brought up except to revel in Paya's death (and before anyone says there's no revelry all the and all the pictures prove otherwise).
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)1. It's being brought up because just today the news came out of what was said at the press conference.
2. The Swedish guy admitted to taking USAID sourced $ - this is my issue as an American citizen, I don't want to pay to kill people in Cuba via idiots like this right wing Angel.
3. I don't think people posted many pictures here, other sites from the right wing / conspiracy side were posting all kinds of misleading photos, La Loba is our anti-hero-mascot so she often appears
4. How could I feel revelry when this person was basically decent and trying to work for change in Cuba. It's really a shame and in the end he posed no threat and can't even be made into a martyr (though some might try).
If there is a sense of confirmation it's that some of us know the game by now. It's follow the right wing USAID money, the cretins from Miami in congress, the international right wing that was probably going to use and dump Paya ultimately. They dumped on him when he went to Miami and thought he was an agent.
And now this international right wing is responsible for funding and carrying out his death! And the death of another dissident. It's shocking and shameful, I like Cubans and hate for this to happen to them.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)I'm annoyed by the third / fourth Paya article that repeats the same thing, we know it was an accident, move on.
I'm fine with the admission by admission of taking USAID money, but it's unclear that it was illegal, even though the Swede admits illegality. Is he being arrested, charged? No, it's not clear.
People were clearly excited / happy with Paya's death, the emoticons and responses and "recs" showed it.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)That's ridiculous, your interpretation skills leave out the fact that people don't like Cuba being bullied, some of us anyway, and sending people to undermine their government and then profitting from the fall out when your agent kills a decent guy, the happiness is that they are busted for who and what they are, opportunists and disgusting.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)...it seems really out of place when we're talking about the death of someone...
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)for the death of the Cubans. She's hardliner who thought Paya was too moderate because he spoke against the embargo. As did her buddies.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)One post. That's all.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)Actually it might have been Mika who posted about a conspiracy but kind of doubt he was endorsing it..
joshcryer (35,661 posts)
5. It's almost always good for a group when a dissidant is taken out.
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I can't see any downsides because it throws a dent into the democracy project in Cuba. All you have to now do is replace Paya with a far right winger who wants to do stupid shit (like repatriate old property owners, etc) and it marginalizes the movement.
As I said, I'll wait for the witness reports once they're out of Cuba. If the reports say that it was just an accident on bad roads, then I will believe them. But I bet you dollars to donuts that if the reports say that they were driven off the road, chased, etc, you will say that they're right wing witnesses and can't be trusted.
BTW, if you really think the Varela Project went no where you should be reminded that one of its major goals was privatization. Cuba followed suit less than a decade later.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)I never said that they did it.
I posed a hypothetical.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)but he was kind of dirty with US money -- and I don't know the facts but it does seem like the USAID dough touches any dissident who wants to survive.
Elizardo Sanchez seems like a more relevant opposition leader. Paya would have found a connection via the church there, they are working with Raul to change things. Too bad he wanted more for his own organization and took money from these clowns who killed him.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)in the original post "Haha! I told you that you wouldn't believe their account. Fucking rich."
There's also reply 4 here : http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014173894#post4
There must be another OP on this somewhere too because I recall Judi mentioning the Swedish Embassy ?
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)...in a thread and I said that I would believe them either way.
Now apparently flamingdem believes this guy is being truthful. But he can't explain why someone who is paying the opposition and who killed someone is going to jail or not.
flamingdem
(39,333 posts)That's going on behind closed doors. There are international factors involved, a Cuban would go to prison if they killed two people and it was their fault. The Spaniard admitted he didn't see the time, according to their schedule they were driving around 90 miles an hour across the island, not all that unusual but after ten hours of that people make mistakes.
joshcryer
(62,280 posts)...but managed to use a gendered word in the body of the text.
Anyway, yes, he admitted to the accident. Not sure why it has to be repeated to me for the umpteenth time.
Judi Lynn
(160,656 posts)It would have been far too dirty for the right-wing to keep on howling the Cuban government had sent someone to run him off the road. These people stop at nothing.
I recall how obsessive they were at the old CNN US-Cuba relations message board. Those Miami guys are true sociopaths, with vicious attitudes.
Tremendous photo of La Loba Feroz. It actually flatters her. She has taken so many far worse ones. No doubt there are some floating about with dead democrats hanging helplessly in her jaws, just like snarlin' Lincoln Diaz-Balart.
It would probably not be that easy in the U.S. for a driver to be speeding, running into a tree, killing others, and then have people getting sniffy if the government apprehends him. I doubt he'd get by with it unless he were very wealthy, with friends in high places.
Thanks for the info. Saw it here first, clearly.