Why don't the anti-Corbynites just say THIS:

[Ken Burch]

"We accept that the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader means that the vast majority of the Labour Party want a clearly different approach to politics than we do. We accept that it is legitimate that they want that, and that the sense of alienation they feel from the way we ran the party is fully justified"

"If we put a new leader in, we pledge that the Corbyn policies will stay in place, the process or renewing the party as a grassroots organization will continue and that the project of restoring internal party democracy will go on"?

If they did that, it would allay a lot of the suspicions that this isn't so much about Corbyn personally as about simply refusing to accept that the people of the Labour party had the right to vote the way they did in the leadership election.

It's simply unacceptable for the "rebels" to take the attitude that "we are the grown-ups and that we are entitled to simply stop anything happening in this party that we don't want to see happen".

[Blue_Tires]

1. Why should they?

Corbyn has already had a no confidence vote, the revelations of his inaction for the Brexit vote are pretty damning, he's lost most of his cabinet, and he got punked by Cameron of all people in Parliament.

It's already over; Corbyn is just trying to find an exit strategy which will allow him to save face....

[Ken Burch]

2. It's really important to you to force the Labour Party back to Blairism, isn't it?

Never mind that nobody in the electorate actually wants Labour to repudiate Corbyn's policies and lower itself to the Third Way again.

[RogueTrooper]

3. It's not about taking The Party back to Blairism

It's about steering The Party away from Marxist-Leninism; although, by all accounts, Seaumus Milne is more of a Stalinist.

[Denzil_DC]

5. So now Corbyn's a "Marxist-Leninist"?! Milne a Stalinist?!

And so are Corbyn's supporters, presumably?

Dude, these tropes don't belong on a UK Group, in my opinion, but it's not my call. They're more fitted to the wider fringe media in the UK, like the Express or Mail, who don't even know what they mean but use them anyway.

Hell, in Scotland, I'm a moderate. In what I can tell of your world view, I'm a Marxist!

These are meaningless slurs in our political set-up in the UK. But unless somebody decides otherwise, you're free to keep throwing them out here.

[RogueTrooper]

6. I never said anything about Corbyn's supporters

You are putting words into my mouth and I would like you to apologise for that.

In Scotland I would be considered left of centre, I would guess.

[Denzil_DC]

7. No, you're NOT getting an apology.

If you feel like that, alert and I'll take my chances.

Corbyn has a large groundswell of support. You've smeared him as something generally only right-wingers in this country would glibly trot out. It's no inappropriate stretch to say you would presumably consider his supporters to share his world view.

If you really think Corbyn's a "Marxist-Leninist" and Milne's a "Stalinist", you'd be considered many things in Scotland - almost all of them colourful but unprintable! But likely not left of centre.

[RogueTrooper]

8. I don't think many people care about Corbyn or Milne in Scotland

Despite his promises he has never managed to make them care either.

I am pretty sure I know what people think of me in Scotland.

[Denzil_DC]

9. None of which is particularly relevant to this thread n/t

[RogueTrooper]

10. Nope, but it was relevant to your last comment

[Denzil_DC]

11. Whatever.

This isn't convincing anybody of anything. Let's just give it a rest and quit falling out, huh?

[Ken Burch]

12. Labour doesn't have to move sharply to the right to avoid "Marxist-Leninism"

No one in the UK these days can fairly be called a Marxist-Leninist(a term that is simply a euphemism for "Stalinist". Corby is a committed democratic socialist, support for the restoration of internal party democracy is as far from Stalinism as a person can get, and opposition to Trident is simply basic sanity(the Cold War is over and no one wants to invade the UK anymore).

Corbyn's politics is much more about Occupy values than anything even vaguely resembling old-time sectarianism.

[Blue_Tires]

13. Since I don't live there, it doesn't affect me in the slightest

Last edited Thu Jun 30, 2016, 03:39 PM - Edit history (1)

but Corbyn's let-me-pretend-I'm-barely-supporting-remain-when-I-really-want-to-leave stunt was duplicitous at best, and an outright betrayal of his party at worst...

And given how many people are jumping ship, I'm not the only one who thinks so... I mean FFS politics aside, even Corbyn's defenders concede his leadership skills are tepid at best...

[Denzil_DC]

15. See the .jpg below.

Which you've conveniently ignored, because you obviously know more that some of us who do actually live here and who it will affect, but are obviously so ill-informed that we need you to wander into a different country's group and tell us how it is.

Whenever your favoured candidate in the US elections is subject to a challenge from vested interests, I'll be sure to chip in and reinforce those vested interests' narrative.

Wait, no, I won't.

Because it may affect me in the long run, but I have better sense and political instincts and am lacking in arrogance enough that I'm highly reluctant to insert myself into a political process that doesn't have any direct bearing on my life and about which I have a lot to learn.

[Blue_Tires]

17. Perhaps you should sit this one out

and let the grownups discuss it...

Or at the bare minimum at least READ the pieces I posted, because I got plenty more where those came from...

[Denzil_DC]

19. Grown-ups?

Good grief. You'd be a parody troll if you had fewer posts to your nym, and I'd end up talking to thin air, as so often recently.

OK, You take the biscuit for utter arrogance. Congratulations.

Jury, do what you ill.

[Denzil_DC]

4. Damning?!

Last edited Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Here:



That's the seemingly chosen initial contender against him for the leadership just a couple of weeks ago.

It's just a very convenient excuse. They've been waiting desperately for some "failure" since he got elected, and doing their damnedest to bring one about, to boot.

He didn't "deliver" that "failure" till last week. Those accusing him should point fingers at themselves - nobody tied them up in a trunk so they couldn't campaign, and they kept undermining his credibility with the public at every turn anyway! They've been all over the media for months.

[Blue_Tires]

14. I'll just leave these here:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/thomas-piketty-quits-as-adviser-to-jeremy-corbyn

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-david-cameron-lost-brexit-eu-referendum-prime-minister-campaign-remain-boris-craig-oliver-jim-messina-obama/

[Denzil_DC]

16. Well, now I'm convinced.

Too near sixty years living in this country, forty of them as a political activist, spells in custody when it seemed warranted and all, and two links have turned my world view and grasp of current affairs around!

What are you - some sort of wizard??!! I'm in awe.

Jeez.

[Blue_Tires]

18. Not sure why you're lashing out at me

when it was Corbyn who failed you...

I realize you're probably still pissed off, but leave me the hell out of it and focus your rage where it belongs...

I mean, you boy has literally put up stronger argumentative defenses in favor of folks like Putin and Assad than he has in support of the EU...

[Denzil_DC]

20. Maybe because you've waltzed in here and are being an arse? Just a guess.

No, actually, that's it.

If you had fewer posts to your nym, you'd have disappeared in a *poof* of talcum powder and petulance by now. Hell, our mods may even decide you're not worth houseroom. Their call.

Seriously, where the hell do you get off coming into a group about a different country's politics and acting like you know it all?

And I don't pin my hopes on Corbyn, because, if you'd bothered to participate in this forum at all before we became "flavor of the week" on DU and apparently attracted know-it-alls like you to come over and educate us, I'm not a Labour voter and live in a country that's chosen a different path.

But I couldn't possibly educate you about what that means because you already, apparently, have all the answers.

Jeez again.

[LeftishBrit]

21. Pullease! Everybody! At the risk of going Meta myself...

This country has let itself be fucked over and royally conned- we'd have done better on June 23rd by replying to all those nice Nigerians offering us a million dollars in return for access to our bank accounts, than being conned as we were. Even the Remainers didn't quite realize how utterly lacking in a clue the Leave leaders were. The government is collapsing in a way that would get any school put into Special Measures; some racist nuts are taking advantage of the whole situation to commit hate-crimes; a good MP was assassinated even before the worst blew up; our standing in the world has gone down; both main parties are imploding - let's not go too crazy ourselves.

Anyone who comes onto the UK forum supporting Brexit and UKIP, or who wants the Tories to be re-elected, should be blocked. But disagreements as to who would be the best leader of the Labour Party are not a good enough reason for the UK forum to implode!!!

I recommend the thread about how to slap Gove for anyone feeling seriously frustrated, which I suppose is all of us.

[Denzil_DC]

22. Heard and understood, mod.

But Houston, we have a problem when posters from elsewhere can steam in here and make cracks about our not being "adults" and continue unscathed when we all know how much we UK DUers value a space where we can have sensible, sometimes immoderate, conversations and fight our own internecine battles in relatively civil terms without having to start from scratch in every discussion or put up with being treated like an ignorant underclass on DU.

And this is about a lot more for me than who's leader of the Labour Party, it's about media perceptions, and how they've screwed over our country, what's left of it, for too many years and those who do their donkeywork for them.

There's pretty much every other forum on DU where people can vent that stuff as much as they want. We only have this place.

Just IMO. You're the mod.

[LeftishBrit]

23. I'm a host not a mod and speaking in my own capacity!

And my comments were directed at UK-ers and non-UK-ers alike. And I think that one, though not the other, of the two new people arguing on the thread does have a UK connection - could be wrong; but vaguely remember him from the early days.

Just feeling fed up with the Labour Party's infighting and its spin-offs; and not wishing for us to end up like GDP did. It's not directed at you personally.

[Denzil_DC]

24. I didn't take it as so, just I've risen to some bait on this thread

and gotten annoyed. And for some weird reason object to being patronized.

Host/mod DOH! So much to learn!

I'm fed up with it, too. Just still got some allegiance to what the party I was once part of once stood for, I guess, and seriously annoyed at our media, more than ever (we had a bellyful of this in Scotland last year).

Still, we'll always have kittens and memes and kicking Farage into the Channel (I can only make Dover at the moment, I've forgotten the mouse timing knack since he LOST that by-election way back when).

[LeftishBrit]

25. I'm fed up with the media too. Have been for a long time..

and though I haven't lived in London for ages, I still feel enough connection with the city to be furious at the way Boris used and betrayed it.