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thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 05:33 PM Apr 27

Okay, a rant about Casablanca involving two pet peeves.

First:

I was watching a reaction video to Casablanca last night which had the closed captions turned on. All well and good: I have no problems hearing dialogue myself--indeed I have pretty much memorized the entire script--but I have Deaf friends and I like to see what they might be missing, since closed captions are often notoriously bad, especially when computer generated.

This, however, isn't a computer glitch. It's been happening now for decades.

When Peter Lorre first shows Bogart the "Letters of Transit" he says, "...signed by General Weygand..."

Notice I said "Weygand." But every caption I've seen, and even some supposed screenplays posted on line, says "General De Gaulle."

Now, you'd have to be historically illiterate to believe that that's what Lorre is saying. Remember this takes place in a territory under the administration of Vichy France. De Gaulle at that time was listed by that government as a traitor, under penalty of death. Far from being documents that "cannot be questioned" by Vichy authorities, anything signed by De Gaulle at that time and place would have brought you straight to the gallows or a firing squad.

By contrast, General Weygand was the head of the Vichy government in French Northwest Africa. So, "letters of transit" signed by Weygand would indeed have had enormous cache for Vichy bureaucrats.

Aside from the captioning being off, I've actually had arguments with film buffs insisting that Lorre indeed says "de Gaulle." Even Roger Ebert claims it was "de Gaulle" for reasons unknown and unfathomable to me.

The only reason for this absurd development is that sometime decades ago someone misheard it, and not knowing the name of any other French general through all French history, decided "de Gaulle" was what Lorre was saying. This had to be an American. No French person, perhaps even no European of the time would be so ill-informed as to make this assumption.

Second rant: am I the only one who bristles when Ingrid Bergman refers to Dooley Wilson as that "boy" at the piano? And how Wilson is addressed by one and all as "Sam" while he has to preface every name with "Mr." or "Miss?" "Leave him alone, Miss Ilsa, you're bad luck to him."

I'm glad to see that contemporary viewers see the Claude Rains character as the sleaze he is. This evidently wasn't always the case, as it seems until fairly recently his exploitation of women fleeing the Nazis was often seen as somehow endearing, as in-"What a rascal!" But the racism inherent in how Sam is treated by others, and how others expect him to behave toward them, seems still often to go unremarked.

Just to be clear: I think "Casablanca" is a treasure and otherwise well-nigh perfect in every sense. Every time I see it I pick up on how incredibly detailed and nuanced it is. Just as an example, when "Karl" is sharing brandy with two German refugees about to leave for America, they have an exchange about the time. "What watch?" "Ten watch." "Such watch?" You have to know some German to know this would be an absolutely probable mistake for new English speakers to make. A common way for Germans to ask the time is, "Wieviel Urh ist es?" which could be literally translated as "How much clock is it?" or even "How much watch?" It's details like that that having me coming back again and again to view this masterpiece.

Someday I want to write an essay detailing all the subtle historical references that viewers these days often miss. But in the meantime, here's my rant.

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Okay, a rant about Casablanca involving two pet peeves. (Original Post) thucythucy Apr 27 OP
Also the Letters of Transit.. Permanut Apr 27 #1
I don't mind that. thucythucy Apr 27 #11
Just some more information, not a reply. LiberalLoner Apr 27 #2
Yes, and I think this gives the film an added poignancy. nt thucythucy Apr 27 #12
I always heard it as De Gaulle myself ... Auggie Apr 27 #3
Same peeves about it as you have! 50 Shades Of Blue Apr 27 #4
I always thought he said General De Gaulle too, but just now grumpyduck Apr 27 #5
I don't think Lorre made a mistake. thucythucy Apr 27 #13
I didn't realize that Casablanca was a documentary. I thought it was just a movie Deuxcents Apr 27 #6
Actually, as Hollywood movies of that era go, thucythucy Apr 27 #14
"Signed by General DeGaulle" Frasier Balzov Apr 27 #7
Nope, he's saying "Weygand," thucythucy Apr 27 #15
You're right. Frasier Balzov Apr 27 #18
Well, it's a hugely common mistake, thucythucy Apr 27 #19
Splendid piece. Thanks for sharing on my favorite film. I too feel the renewed wound when "Sam", Dooley Wilson's... brush Apr 27 #8
I don't know if I could categorize it as film noire, thucythucy Apr 27 #16
Again an excellent read. And I have to dispute your last sentence... brush Apr 28 #20
Thank you for all your kind words. thucythucy Apr 29 #21
"Is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo?" Frasier Balzov Apr 27 #9
I think the issue is different in Huckleberry Finn. thucythucy Apr 27 #17
It might as well have been made in 1939 with social attitudes like that reflected in the movie ZonkerHarris Apr 27 #10

Permanut

(5,687 posts)
1. Also the Letters of Transit..
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 05:46 PM
Apr 27

There was no such thing. The writers invented them as a plot element to move the story along. Historically inaccurate, but not really important.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
11. I don't mind that.
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 08:23 PM
Apr 27

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2024, 09:21 PM - Edit history (1)

It's central to the plot, like the Maltese Falcon.

But to say the letters are signed by de Gaulle stretches my suspended disbelief to the breaking point.

Who was it who said an author--or in this case a screenwriter--is allowed one great instance of disbelief? Beyond that, the audience is lost?

Anyway, letters of transit doesn't bother me, unless they're signed by De Gaulle.

Auggie

(31,227 posts)
3. I always heard it as De Gaulle myself ...
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 05:50 PM
Apr 27

and wondered how the heck the letters could be valid if signed by him. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sound like more of a little nitpick than a rant to me. So be it.



grumpyduck

(6,282 posts)
5. I always thought he said General De Gaulle too, but just now
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 05:56 PM
Apr 27

I looked up the original script, and it does say Marshal Waygand on p. 21.

http://mckeestory.com/wp-content/uploads/Digital-CASABLANCA.pdf

I wonder if it was just a mistake by Peter Lorre.

As far as Sam, there are a few items in the script which are totally incorrect and offensive today.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
13. I don't think Lorre made a mistake.
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 08:27 PM
Apr 27

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2024, 09:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I hear it as "Weygand," which is proniounced "Vay-gone"

That's what I hear every time.

Edited to add: thanks for the link!

Deuxcents

(16,409 posts)
6. I didn't realize that Casablanca was a documentary. I thought it was just a movie
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 06:12 PM
Apr 27

A really good movie, I’ll add, but not a historically accurate one.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
14. Actually, as Hollywood movies of that era go,
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 08:34 PM
Apr 27

it's pretty accurate, once you accept that there is such a thing as "letters of transit."

The tensions and uneasy balance between French and Germans in North Africa, the desperate plight of refugees from Europe and the corrupt trade that sprung up to take advantage of them, the fact that Lisbon was a nexus for people fleeing Europe for America, all of that is accurate.

If anything the movie doesn't reflect the actual horror of what was happening in Europe, but then the general public in America wasn't all that well informed about death camps and such.

I mean, it's not as though this is "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter." Or something produced by Mel Gibson or starring John Wayne.

Frasier Balzov

(2,676 posts)
7. "Signed by General DeGaulle"
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 06:30 PM
Apr 27

A clip which includes this line is available on YT.

It is not an overdub. This is Peter Lorre saying "DeGaulle" during the actual take. No doubt about it.

I imagine a decision was made on set to use a name which sounded more French than Weygand.

DeGaulle not only sounds more French, but also more recognizable to the American ear as someone both French and vaguely important.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
15. Nope, he's saying "Weygand,"
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 08:42 PM
Apr 27

which is pronounced, "Vay Gone." He says it fast and in his Peter Lorre accent, but it's Weygand.

It's arguable that Weygand at the time was actually as well known as de Gaulle, maybe even more so, as was Vichy official Admiral Darlan, another major player in the aftermath to Operation Torch. The movie came out not too long after the Allied landings in North Africa, and both Weygand and Darlan were prominent in the news.

And if any Americans were familiar with de Gaulle, they would have known how absurd it was to have him as the signer of the letters.

Imagine a scene in a movie about the American revolution:

"...Something even you have never seen. Letters signed by George Washington, which every British official is bound to respect..."

Frasier Balzov

(2,676 posts)
18. You're right.
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 10:18 PM
Apr 27

Your careful explanation of how he is pronouncing the name allowed me to watch his lips and hear it.

I'm perfectly sympathetic to Roger Ebert and anyone else who got this wrong, because I was one of them!

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
19. Well, it's a hugely common mistake,
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 10:59 PM
Apr 27

hence my diatribe, so I wouldn't feel bad about it.

Another poster on this thread tracked down an actual copy of the script posted as a PDF on-line. I checked it out and yes, it's "Weygand."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxime_Weygand

Ebert though should have known better. That said, I very much liked his show and columns, even if I didn't always agree with how he directed his thumb.

brush

(53,969 posts)
8. Splendid piece. Thanks for sharing on my favorite film. I too feel the renewed wound when "Sam", Dooley Wilson's...
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 06:41 PM
Apr 27

character is referred to as "the boy." It's a flaw that annoys me every time I watch the movie. Unfortunately it was characteristic of the time the movie was made.

The de Galle interpretation is of course an error. It would have to be Weygland, or even Petain for historical accuracy.

One question I put to you: Is "Casablanca" a film noir, or perhaps a film precursor? There's no femme fatale. Berman's character is not, and the French woman who goes over to the nazis doesn't have a central enough role, and redeems herself later when breaks out in tears while singing the French anthem.

Bogart's character Rick Blaine certainly seems to display moral ambiguity throughout the film but reveals himself to be on the side what's just at the end of the film, as does the assumed sleazoid Claude Rains' inspector character.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
16. I don't know if I could categorize it as film noire,
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 09:06 PM
Apr 27

though many of the camera techniques are similar, and much of the dialogue is more sophisticated, more cynical even, than was usual for the time. It definitely has the rapid fire delivery that would become a standard in noire screenplays.

And then the use of shadows, the camera angles, are certainly similar to noire. Ilsa's first appearance above the club, the shadows in Victor and Ilsa's room when Victor looks out the window to see "our friend" who's been tailing them, the shadows that fall over her face all through the film, all seem to be precursors to what would become standard to noire.

The Maltese Falcon had come out the year before and there certainly are similarities between Richard Blaine and Sam Spade. Spade's playing both sides -- or all sides -- of the game, and Rick seeming to first reject Lazlo's plea and then seeming to actively try to frame him, is kind of analogous to Spade's relationship to Archer's wife and his rather ambiguous morality. And then both characters redeem themselves at the end, though Spade of course throws O'Shaunessy under the bus, while Rick does the opposite for Ilsa and Lazlo.

In what I think of as pure noire--like Double Indemnity--the leading characters, male and female, are totally unredeemed. The Fred MacMurray character may try to redeem himself at the end, but only after he's committed two murders and believes he might be dying himself.

So I wouldn't say it's pure noire, but it definitely adopts a noire sensibility, at least in the cinematography.

It's an interesting question though, but then I'm no certainly expert at all on the subject.

brush

(53,969 posts)
20. Again an excellent read. And I have to dispute your last sentence...
Sun Apr 28, 2024, 03:52 AM
Apr 28

you certainly know your way around film noir characteristics.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
21. Thank you for all your kind words.
Mon Apr 29, 2024, 10:28 AM
Apr 29

And here's another random observation:

The scene where Peter Lorre screams for help from Rick reminds me so much of his amazing performance in "M." That was such a ground breaking film in so many ways, and Lorre is just amazing as one of the most truly convoluted and evil characters in film history.

I mean: talk about "dark!"

Frasier Balzov

(2,676 posts)
9. "Is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo?"
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 06:42 PM
Apr 27

"Pardon me, boy."

The musical question is being asked of a Pullman porter.

It's the same kind of problem we moderns have with the historical colloquial found in Huckleberry Finn.

thucythucy

(8,114 posts)
17. I think the issue is different in Huckleberry Finn.
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 09:20 PM
Apr 27

Last edited Sat Apr 27, 2024, 11:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm thinking for instance of the scene where Huck struggles with reconciling his "Christian" upbringing--which tells him it's a sin to steal another's "property"-- with his growing affection for Jim. In the end, after a tormented internal struggle that is a literary tour de force, he decides he'd rather go to Hell than turn Jim into the slave catchers. It's a wrenching moment for him, a decision to put himself in opposition to everything he's been taught to believe, and a statement on slavery and racism that Twain very consciously made when writing the book, pointing out the racism inherent in American "Christianity" while being true to the racist vernacular of the time.

By contrast, in Casablanca there's seemingly no awareness by the film makers of the racism inherent in how everyone treats Sam and how he acts toward them. True, Rick says he doesn't buy or sell human beings--"Casablanca's leading commodity"--but he never has Sam call him just plain Rick or even Richard, while he never ever addresses Sam as "Mr. Sam."

It's just the racist convention of the time, seemingly accepted without question. It is one of the very few flaws in what is otherwise a near perfect film for the ages.

Edited to add: I had a friend who had a stock of shaggy dog stories that always ended with a parody of "Chatanooga Choo Choo." The only one I can remember now involved Roy Rogers and a mischievous feline, and ended, "Pardon me Roy, is that the cat who chewed your new shoes?'

You had to be there...

ZonkerHarris

(24,289 posts)
10. It might as well have been made in 1939 with social attitudes like that reflected in the movie
Sat Apr 27, 2024, 08:00 PM
Apr 27

dinosaurs, amirite?

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