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betsuni

(25,136 posts)
Sat May 16, 2020, 05:26 AM May 2020

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (betsuni) on Mon Dec 11, 2023, 03:51 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) betsuni May 2020 OP
SOME americans don't trust experts has ALWAYS been the case, its worse now beachbumbob May 2020 #1
I started noticing this in the eighties. betsuni May 2020 #4
GOP is built on ignorance and the notion that govt (and experts) are evil beachbumbob May 2020 #8
And the funny thing is Proud liberal 80 May 2020 #7
Someone recently posted this quote... Duppers May 2020 #2
Far be it for me to attempt a refinement of herr Nietzche's quote but.... jaxexpat May 2020 #3
Wow, excellent. "Far be it..."? You're too modest! Duppers May 2020 #13
Thanks. I read a book once. jaxexpat May 2020 #14
😂 Duppers May 2020 #17
Two 'experts' keithbvadu2 May 2020 #5
I once worked for a guy who bragged about his "PHD, Public High school Diploma" jaxexpat May 2020 #9
Root is the narcissistic culture that breeds focus on 'me' bucolic_frolic May 2020 #6
The easiest thing for grownups (not adults) to do. ancianita May 2020 #12
Excellent post! Buckeye_Democrat May 2020 #16
Good points. 2naSalit May 2020 #19
I think it started with the tobacco scientists or scientists hired to come out with a specific LiberalArkie May 2020 #10
+1 2naSalit May 2020 #18
This is why I love PBS Chainfire May 2020 #11
I sometimes think TV dramas have caused it too. Buckeye_Democrat May 2020 #15
 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
1. SOME americans don't trust experts has ALWAYS been the case, its worse now
Sat May 16, 2020, 06:10 AM
May 2020

after decades of home schooling, religious and private school education where critical thinking and reasoning been demolished

betsuni

(25,136 posts)
4. I started noticing this in the eighties.
Sat May 16, 2020, 07:20 AM
May 2020

Republicans.

 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
8. GOP is built on ignorance and the notion that govt (and experts) are evil
Sat May 16, 2020, 08:03 AM
May 2020

why they historically anti-public education and anti-higher education. Knowledge is the ONLY antidote to ignorance and GOP only exist because of ignorance and the hate as the result.

Proud liberal 80

(4,167 posts)
7. And the funny thing is
Sat May 16, 2020, 07:59 AM
May 2020

They the that they are using critical thinking and reasoning by not trusting them

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
2. Someone recently posted this quote...
Sat May 16, 2020, 06:57 AM
May 2020

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

jaxexpat

(6,703 posts)
3. Far be it for me to attempt a refinement of herr Nietzche's quote but....
Sat May 16, 2020, 07:19 AM
May 2020

It could mean, Faith is belief which excuses one from the burden of discerning the truth.

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
13. Wow, excellent. "Far be it..."? You're too modest!
Sat May 16, 2020, 02:06 PM
May 2020

Great job! 👍

jaxexpat

(6,703 posts)
14. Thanks. I read a book once.
Sat May 16, 2020, 05:24 PM
May 2020

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
17. 😂
Sat May 16, 2020, 07:06 PM
May 2020

keithbvadu2

(36,369 posts)
5. Two 'experts'
Sat May 16, 2020, 07:28 AM
May 2020

jaxexpat

(6,703 posts)
9. I once worked for a guy who bragged about his "PHD, Public High school Diploma"
Sat May 16, 2020, 08:06 AM
May 2020

His pride in his ignorance was pretty off-putting to many and he never got it, that they laughed behind his back.

bucolic_frolic

(42,676 posts)
6. Root is the narcissistic culture that breeds focus on 'me'
Sat May 16, 2020, 07:48 AM
May 2020

Because 'me' makes others and things outside ourselves irrelevant to our righteous self-determination. We have a long tradition. Puritanism, for example. Look at what they did to native American nations of New England. And as one other poster commented, home and religious schooling. It's a Puritan revival in some respects.

Rejection of outside forces breeds paranoia. Everyone is out to get me and mine. No one's reality is smarter than mine. So anyone 'smarter' is not really smarter, and if you let 'them' put one over on you, you're in dire straits indeed. So the experts must be wrong.

So at its heart i see focus on self and self-only, that runs through religious belief and self-righteousness, and rejection of all else, as the cause of denial of facts presented by experts.

ancianita

(35,813 posts)
12. The easiest thing for grownups (not adults) to do.
Sat May 16, 2020, 12:09 PM
May 2020

One of the best framings I've read. Thanks for this.

The 'me' culture has a layer that deals with uncertainty or insecurity or the fear that, "even if there are smarter realities than mine, even ones that I can understand, I decide what is my reality, in the end.


Buckeye_Democrat

(14,847 posts)
16. Excellent post!
Sat May 16, 2020, 05:35 PM
May 2020

2naSalit

(86,061 posts)
19. Good points.
Mon May 18, 2020, 03:30 AM
May 2020

Mention of the Puritans is apropos. I grew up mainly in the NE colonial states and back then, we heard a lot about those folks and the Indians. But mostly about the Puritans who seemed to morph into New England fundamentalist Baptists to whom I had significant exposure.

These irrationalists of our time will look for anything other than themselves to blame and reject what isn't divinely included in their minute world view. It's the same of the isolationist religions like the Amish and the Mennonites, Amanas, and Hutterites, they don't assimilate either. The ones who think they are driving culture are really only acting out what they see on teevee and now social media and some are meeting stupid challenges.

Science is something that they are scared of because they don;t understand it and don't want to, yes, as a badge of honor. I know a lot of people like that and it's troubling. They think I'm less likeable or whatever I have to say is subject to interrogation because I went to college... and how come I can't answer a question that has no reasonable, explainable answer that they will accept?

And purity in tribal cohesion means a lot to them when they are in each other's company but afterward, they act like each other with all their vices and crimes against themselves while thinking they can find absolution if they show up to church once in a while. But mostly they are spending all that time and effort trying to convince themselves more than others.

LiberalArkie

(15,686 posts)
10. I think it started with the tobacco scientists or scientists hired to come out with a specific
Sat May 16, 2020, 08:51 AM
May 2020

result.

2naSalit

(86,061 posts)
18. +1
Mon May 18, 2020, 03:15 AM
May 2020

Seems like that's when it started. I don't rememebr antivaxxers until like fifteen years ago or less.

Chainfire

(17,308 posts)
11. This is why I love PBS
Sat May 16, 2020, 10:04 AM
May 2020

I think that his most important comments were about the politicians who know better, but are forced to pretend that they don't to support their agenda. That is the real problem in the country.

Pandering to ignorance in order to protect your position of power is destructive to our society. Trump does't fit that category because he is not pretending to be ignorant. The founders were smart enough to know that one day we may face such a defective "leader" therefore they chose a system with checks and balances based upon the theory that the majority of our elected officials would be honest, intelligent and honorable servants of and by the people and would be able to prevent a single man, or a fanatical minority, from destroying our society. They failed because they could not have envisioned the level of dishonesty of corp of professional politicians who we keep returning to office.

Trump and his Republican allies are now attacking the system of checks and balances because they do not want honesty and integrity to interfere with their goals of morphing our system of government from a Representative Democracy government to an unapologetic form American Fascism. The Republicans are working hard to insure that the needs of the people are not the dominant driving political force of our nation.

I also appreciated his articulation of the power of the tribalism that divides and drives the people. The Republicans are very successful in sustaining the emotional divisions of the country because they understand the value of "divide and conquer." That is why they feed right wing extremism. The Republicans don't really value or respect these types any more than we do, but they serve an important purpose. Our politicians keep both sides armed and fired up. While the people are fighting over "freedom," guns and abortions the Republicans are quietly assembling an impregnable fortress of power.

What many of us have a hard time understanding is that the Right Wing is never going to change because they have too much invested in their belief systems. I am not sure that is any different than us.... Understanding that we are not going to change the beliefs of 40% of the population is extremely important to our strategy of maintaining what is left of our Democracy.

The path for our way forward will be to not pander to the 40% on either end of the political spectrum, but to focus on the 20% in the middle that value some positions of both the right and the left. We will have to pick our battles based on impressing that segment of the voters. It may leave some foul tastes in our mouths, but better to bend in the wind than to break. Once we get a firm hold on the power we will be able to nudge the center our way by good governance.

If we fail in this election, running against the worst President in the history or our nation, we will not get another chance.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,847 posts)
15. I sometimes think TV dramas have caused it too.
Sat May 16, 2020, 05:30 PM
May 2020

Detective/police shows where the protagonist just "knows" who did the crime, and it ends with the assumption being true.

Lawyer shows that do the same thing.

Actually, I hope most Americans realize that behaving like a lawyer -- i.e., arguing for your side even when you KNOW it's wrong -- is no way to go through life outside a courtroom.

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