From Which River to Which Sea?

[question everything]

When college students who sympathize with Palestinians chant “From the river to the sea,” do they know what they’re talking about? I hired a survey firm to poll 250 students from a variety of backgrounds across the U.S. Most said they supported the chant, some enthusiastically so (32.8%) and others to a lesser extent (53.2%).

But only 47% of the students who embrace the slogan were able to name the river and the sea. Some of the alternative answers were the Nile and the Euphrates, the Caribbean, the Dead Sea (which is a lake) and the Atlantic. Less than a quarter of these students knew who Yasser Arafat was (12 of them, or more than 10%, thought he was the first prime minister of Israel). Asked in what decade Israelis and Palestinians had signed the Oslo Accords, more than a quarter of the chant’s supporters claimed that no such peace agreements had ever been signed. There’s no shame in being ignorant, unless one is screaming for the extermination of millions.

Would learning basic political facts about the conflict moderate students’ opinions? A Latino engineering student from a southern university reported “definitely” supporting “from the river to the sea” because “Palestinians and Israelis should live in two separate countries, side by side.” Shown on a map of the region that a Palestinian state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, leaving no room for Israel, he downgraded his enthusiasm for the mantra to “probably not.” Of the 80 students who saw the map, 75% similarly changed their view.

(snip)

In all, after learning a handful of basic facts about the Middle East, 67.8% of students went from supporting “from the river to sea” to rejecting the mantra. These students had never seen a map of the Mideast and knew little about the region’s geography, history or demography. Those who hope to encourage extremism depend on the political ignorance of their audiences. It is time for good teachers to join the fray and combat bias with education.

Mr. Hassner is a professor of political science at the University of California, Berkeley.

https://archive.is/aJvDh

If you cannot open at the link, here is the free link

https://www.wsj.com/articles/from-which-river-to-which-sea-anti-israel-protests-college-student-ignorance-a682463b?st=77xhqyo91zv1ps3&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

[marybourg]

1. The ignorance is not limited to college students. As even a cursory read

of DU will reveal.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Another nice follow up question would have been more instructive, for example

Last edited Wed Dec 6, 2023, 12:57 AM - Edit history (1)

which side has chanted or used the phrase "From the river to the sea" and what does it mean to them?

Answer, both sides have and you would have to ask them what it means.

Thanks for the thread question everything

[TexasDem69]

3. "Both sides" have used a slogan

That suggests the destruction of Israel and death of all Israelis? That seems questionable. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

[Uncle Joe]

4. No, both side have used the phrase either chanting or in their platform

[Big Blue Marble]

23. Thanks for posting such an important video. N/T

[Beastly Boy]

7. The subject of the OP is American college students.

How many American college students are you aware of who used "From the river to the sea" slogan in defense of Israel?

[Uncle Joe]

8. I know what the overt subject of the OP is, and I also know what the subliminal message is.

Something which the Wall Street Journal didn't seem to know or care about which I find even more distressing that with all their financial resources they didn't have the wherewithal or conscientious to do more extensive research on the use of the phrase both in opposition and defense of Israel.

[Beastly Boy]

9. So now we are down to responding to messages so subliminal, they are nowhere to be seen. Just presumed.

Building Strawmen and destroying them.

[Uncle Joe]

10. One person's "strawman" is another's context. n/t

[Beastly Boy]

11. In what context is a subliminal message not a subliminal message?

[Uncle Joe]

12. Both sides have used it, yet the corporate media want to act as if Hamas is only one.

The roots of Likud have grown from that soil.

However that couldn't be brought up by WSJ.

Not to mention the phrase itself is ambiguous with the meaning dependent on the person or institution using it.

That phrase could mean the elimination of one or the other, Israel or Palestine.

It could also ring true with a confederation one state or two state solution if the land is properly divided.

[Beastly Boy]

13. This couldn't be brought up by WSJ because they don't report on metaphors.

And journalism doesn't deal with subliminal messages, especially when a metaphor is the only thing offered as evidence of their existence.

[Uncle Joe]

14. I'm not telling the WSJ or corporate media to report on metaphors but context would be nice.

Half of any picture is a subliminal message as the hidden part is omitted from conscious thought.

If you prefer, you can also call it deception.

[Beastly Boy]

15. Of course none of us are telling the corporate media what to report on.

But reporting on claims of subliminal messaging backed by a metaphor wouldn't add to their credibility. No matter what you or I prefer to call it.

[Uncle Joe]

16. Context! I don't want deliberately hidden information, what do you think FOX "News" was all about?

They brainwashed millions of Americans with partial information that led to the coup of January 6th.

*rump could never have done that on his own without all the subliminal or partial messaging deceiving the people.

This is no different from the Wall Street Journal, it's just partial messaging devoid of context.

[Beastly Boy]

17. This is no different from Commondreams and Intercept.

But I don't ascribe subliminal messaging to them.

[Uncle Joe]

18. Okay, if this is no different than Commondreams and Intercept and you don't subcribe

to subliminal messaging from them, why are you subscribing to it from the Wall Street Journal?

[Beastly Boy]

19. I am not consciously subscribing to subliminal messages from anyone.

And I don't see any subliminal messaging present in WSJ, Commondreams or Intercept. They are all the same in this respect, and that was what I was saying.

A metaphor is no evidence for the presence of subliminal messages. This goes for all media.

[Uncle Joe]

20. I see a major lack of context and that's my definition of subliminal messaging, not

the 1950's drink coke, eat popcorn experiment.

If you're only given half a message; with a false implication being drawn from that incomplete information, this is my definition of a subliminal form of brainwashing, because your conscious mind doesn't process the complete message.

Like I said before, you can call it deception if you prefer but it's still run around the conscious, reasoning mind.

[lees1975]

5. Those who fail to learn the lessons of history...

are Americans.

Our public education system leaves a lot to be desired, but it has been an abysmal failure in the area of world history.

Shouldn't you know something about what you're protesting for?

[stopdiggin]

6. thanks. informative.

The phrase clearly refers to an elimination of Israel - regardless of whether or not people are ignorant of the fact.

(and given some of the rank antisemitism that has been on display - I'm not sure if it's wise to ascribe all, or even most, of it to a lack of geographical knowledge. wish it were so - but doubtful ... )

[Big Blue Marble]

24. Then why did Likud write it into their platform?

See the video above.

[stopdiggin]

25. this appears to be the 'go to' cover that has been adopted

by the apologists for a slogan that is very clear in its meaning and intent. Sorry - not buying.

[Big Blue Marble]

27. If you watch the video I recommended you would know that

your so-called apologist (apologists for what?) is the Israeli-American holocaust scholar from
Brown University, Omar Bartov who is considered a leading scholar on genocide.

This would lead me to think you did not watch the video.

Likud wrote it into their platform because they were promising the Israeli people
a ethnically cleansed Israel from the river to the sea free of Palestinians.

It is of no concern of anyone, but yourself that you choose to not buy it.

[stopdiggin]

28. Watched the vid.

And there are learned men and scholars that I disagree with - virtually every day. This would be one of them.

Likewise - also don't feel any particular need or desire to either subscribe to, or validate, the political blather of a bunch of right wing blowhards set to paper some 40 years ago. (nor do a great many Jews living both within and without the state of Israel)

[Big Blue Marble]

29. Just out of curiosity, which right wing blowhards do you mean?

40 years ago, there were many, not as many as now, but far too many.

I doubt that anyone here would validate them then or now including the right-wing
ministers of Israel.

[Cha]

21. Ask Hamas: 'From the river to the sea' is a call for the destruction of Israel

Less than 24 hours after Hamas launched its Oct. 7 attack, its representative in Tehran, Khaled Qaddoumi, gave an interview in English to Iran’s Press TV about the “historic event [that] took place in the holy land of Palestine… the Al-Aqsa Flood battle to liberate Palestine from the river to the sea, in order to expel the Zionist regime.”

The following day, he added, in another interview with the IRGC-affiliated Fars News: “We will witness the liberation of the dear homeland of the Palestinian people from the river to the sea, as well as the destruction of the Zionist regime.”

Though the tens of thousands of anti-Israel protesters worldwide chanting “from the river to the sea” fully understand its true meaning, many insist that this phrase is merely an expression of support for the Palestinians and want the world to believe that it is not a call for the destruction of Israel and for killing Jews.

https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/jns/ask-hamas-from-the-river-to-the-sea-is-a-call-for-the-destruction-of/article_1a500541-b79e-5ea7-bc75-80984cd19cd2.html

a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel:

[question everything]

22. Another "aspirational" concept?

[DBoon]

26. from the Rio Grande to the Gulf of Mexico

The Palestinians can have all of Texas