Israel Seizes Gaza Hospital That Became Symbol of the War Itself

[Uncle Joe]

Satellite image of Al-Shifa Hospital and surroundings in Gaza City, on Saturday.Credit...Maxar Technologies, via Associated Press

(snip)

Israeli soldiers on Wednesday morning stormed that hospital, Al-Shifa, searching its corridors and rooms for evidence to support Israel’s assertion that the sprawling medical complex doubles as a secret military command center. Over the course of the day, they hunted for weapons and interrogated those they found inside, according to both Israeli officials and Palestinians at the hospital.

(snip)

Hamas and the hospital’s leadership have denied the Israeli assertions. Al-Shifa, they say, is nothing other than a medical center and sanctuary for thousands of people uprooted by Israel’s strikes on Gaza. For Palestinians, the Israeli military’s focus on a major hospital, when such facilities are typically off-limits during times of war, is proof of its disregard for Palestinian life.

The Al-Shifa hospital compound last week.Credit...Bashar Taleb/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

(snip)

Eighteen hours after the raid on the hospital began, the Israeli military released photos and video that it said backed its assertions. It distributed images of 13 guns that it said its soldiers had discovered in the hospital, as well as a statement saying that it had found a military command center in the hospital’s M.R.I. unit.

(snip)

As the day progressed, witnesses described an operation that appeared more like a violent police raid than a pitched battle between two military forces.

(snip)

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/15/world/middleeast/al-shifa-hospital-israel.html

[Beastly Boy]

1. And the killings on the hospital grounds stop.

Remove the cause, and you can immediately see the effect. So much for the "genocide" bullshit.

[Uncle Joe]

2. Why do you believe the killings on the hospital ground stopped?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016368363

[Beastly Boy]

3. Why do you believe they did not stop?

Any reports on any killings since yesterday?

[AloeVera]

4. This might have something to do with it.

Gaza is silenced.

Nothing is being reported out of Al-Shifa or the rest of Gaza.

Mobile phone and internet services have gone down across the Gaza Strip due to a lack of fuel for back-up generators, Palestinian telecoms companies say.

Telecom firms Paltel and Jawwal said all energy sources sustaining their networks were depleted, and an internet monitor confirmed a major outage.

Israel has blocked all but one delivery of fuel to Gaza since the start of its war with Hamas five weeks ago.

The UN said a blackout could jeopardise civil order and undermine aid efforts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67441025.amp

[Beastly Boy]

5. That didn't stop reports from Gaza the day before yesterday

There are means other than mobile phone and internet services, and they are widely used in reporting news.

How else do you explain all the reports that came out of Gaza today?

[AloeVera]

14. Worried.

I was referring to news from the ground that does not come from IDF.

I could not find any news reports today quoting the Al Shifa doctors and administrators or any Palestinian sources. The WHO said yesterday they lost contact with Al Shifa.

The only communication concerning what's happening at Al Shifa today is from the IDF. Their focus is not on the hospital patients.

Sure, there was some Western press like the BBC who were invited in and escorted by the IDF yesterday. But they were not allowed to talk to the doctors or the patients.

It looks like the hospital does not have access to satellite phones etc that are used by the western press so this blackout is bad news for them.

I'm really concerned about reports that there is no food or clean water and that patients are starting to die from infections and lack of medicine and surgeries. This black out means their urgent pleas for help cannot be heard and they've in effect been silenced.

[Beastly Boy]

16. Just a quickie google search

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/16/escape-from-al-shifa-how-a-gaza-medic-dodged-israeli-patrols-snipers

A report by an Arab network. Dated today. Quoting the Al Shifa medic. No bullets fired. The report cites accounts of events in the hospital and immediate vicinity happening the day before or earlier.

What you are concerned about was reported yesterday or earlier.

[AloeVera]

18. Thanks but...

That interview took place on Monday. You may not have realized.

The horrors taking place in the hospital are well detailed by this poor man. Trust you read the whole article.

From the article:

“We couldn’t help the wounded,” he told Al Jazeera on Monday, looking away as his voice broke. “They were dying! We couldn’t do anything to save them. We would just watch them die.

As I said, nothing today from the doctors or Palestinians inside that hospital right now.

[Beastly Boy]

22. Your concern was that there was no telephone or internet service on the 16th

No matter when the interview took place, it was published by Al Jazeera as news dated November 16. Internet or no, they had the means to get it published, which is exactly my point.

And since you so astutely observed that the horrors in the hospital were conveyed on Monday, you proved my other point: no reports of the horrors taking place on the 16th.

Thank you.

[AloeVera]

23. Well, no.

You knew I would respond, right?

I'm afraid the points you proved were not what you think.

My whole point was that the communications black-out has severely limited Gazan voices from getting out to the world, as proven by the dearth of reports from non-IDF sources.

You can't use the one Al Jazeera article to somehow claim the contrary. To point out the obvious, Al Jazeera is not dependent on Gaza's internet/phone systems. A communications blackout in Gaza has no impact on their ability to publish. It would, however, affect their ability to gather news from the ground as those voices are silenced.

An interview with a traumatized medic who had already left the hospital 4 days before the article was published is not proof that there were no killings after he left the hospital. You can't use that one report, and the dearth of subsequent non-IDF reports from Gaza, as somehow proof that there are no horrors taking place at the moment, or more specifically on the 16th.

The reality is we get very little information on what's happening inside and outside that hospital except what the IDF tells us.

[Beastly Boy]

31. I am afraid the explanations you are giving don't match what you posted.

This s what you stated:

I could not find any news reports today quoting the Al Shifa doctors and administrators or any Palestinian sources. The WHO said yesterday they lost contact with Al Shifa.

The only communication concerning what's happening at Al Shifa today is from the IDF. Their focus is not on the hospital patients.

This is literally stating that you couldn't find any reports, and that the only communication is from IDF. Not dearth of communication but its absence, which you squarely blamed on IDF.

And I told you, the link I provided was a result of a quicky look at Google, but that quicky has exposed your statement to be false.

I didn't intend to prove that there were no killings after he left the hospital. I intended to prove you were wrong. And I did. With just one instance that rendered your suppositions wrong.

You knew I would respond, right?

[AloeVera]

43. Really nice.

You just have to have the last word to prove you are impervious to reason or honest debate.
You know what I said, but you felt the need to twist it to suit your narrative, while ignoring my valid points. Then you declared victory based on your false claim and lack of rebuttal.

Nice.

[Beastly Boy]

45. You challenged me to respond, didn't you?

If debunking the invalid points that you think are valid is not your idea of a rebuttal, and if responding to your challenge for a response is not your idea of an response, what are you proposing? Summarily agreeing with your points and shying away from challenges?

Yeah, I have a problem with that.

[Uncle Joe]

6. Have all the utilities been turned on for the 2.3 million people living in the Gaza Strip yet?

How Long Can You Live Without Water? Facts And Effects To Survive




The general consensus is that people can survive for around three days without water, with estimates typically ranging from two days to a week. Wilderness guides often refer to the “rule of 3”, which says that a person can live for 3 minutes without air (oxygen), 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food.

https://svalbardi.com/blogs/water/living-without#:~:text=The%20general%20consensus%20is%20that,and%203%20weeks%20without%20food.



It doesn't make any difference whether you shoot, bomb or cause someone to die of thirst, starvation and/or disease, they're just as dead.

The children, infants, elderly and patients of any hospital are particularly vulnerable to succumbing.

[Beastly Boy]

7. I don't know. Hamas is still the de facto ruler of Gaza, and I haven't heard from them.

But my response to the OP was about the killings in and around the Shifa hospital.

[Uncle Joe]

8. Hamas is not the De Facto ruler of the Gaza Strip, Israel is.

Israel had Gaza blockaded; land, air and sea for over a decade and a half, it's occupied territory.

It's an occupation whether they're physically in Gaza or just being the guards for the world's largest open air prison.

Until there is an actual peace agreement recognizing the Palestinian nation, Israel is responsible for the well being of the Palestinian people under its' occupation.

[Beastly Boy]

9. So what IS the status of Hamas, and when did it change?

Are all the Palestinian ministries in Gaza, including the ministry in charge of water distribution, not under Hamas' control anymore?

[Uncle Joe]

10. It changed when Israel created Hamas to dominate the Palestinian people in Gaza

Israel just used a one-two punch to keep from ever having to recognize a Palestinian nation.

Gaza terrorists to act as inside prison wall guards and Israel Defense Forces on the outside.

Israel just a put a pressure cooker on the stove and walked away from it.



(snip)

But did you also know that Hamas — which is an Arabic acronym for “Islamic Resistance Movement” — would probably not exist today were it not for the Jewish state? That the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?

This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

(snip)

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

[Beastly Boy]

11. That doesn't add up. Hamas was founded in 1987. Netanyahu first became prime minister in 2009

In 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin. It emerged out of his Mujama al-Islamiya (Islamic Centre), which had been established in Gaza in 1973 as an Islamic charity involved with the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood.[22] Hamas became increasingly involved in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict by the late 1990s;[63] it opposed the Israel–PLO Letters of Mutual Recognition as well as the Oslo Accords, which saw Fatah renounce "the use of terrorism and other acts of violence" and recognize Israel in pursuit of a two-state solution. Hamas continued to advocate Palestinian armed resistance, won the 2006 Palestinian legislative election,[64] gaining a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council,[65] and took control of the Gaza Strip from Fatah following a civil war in 2007

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

So I am completely lost in the chronology, not to mention its relevance to the OP.

[Uncle Joe]

12. What's the problem with the dates?

I never said that Netanyahu's government created Hamas, I said Hamas was created by Israel's government.

The relevance being Israel has always been responsible for the well being of the Palestinian People under it or its' creation's occupation.

That will always be the case until there is a peace treaty recognizing a Palestinian nation, in the mean time it's just occupied territory and Israel is responsible

[Autumn]

13. Netanyahu has kept Hamas in power and that was to make sure Palestinian not become a state

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/


For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Your post was not kooky or hate content. Truth is hard for some to handle

[Beastly Boy]

29. ...And it still doesn't add up!

Where was netanyahu between 1987 and 2009, when Hamas when Oslo Accords were signed, when Israel was recognized by the PLO, when Hamas and PLO had a civil war, when Israel left Gaza, and when Hamas finally usurped power in Gaza?

It appears that established chronology of events is hard for some to handle.

[Autumn]

34. Netanyahu has kept Hamas in power to make sure Palestinian not become a state.

It is a fact that that is hard for some to handle. But he did.


For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products

[Beastly Boy]

36. You've repeated this enough times to train a dog to develop a reflexive reaction to this.

Now try to answer my question without beating the same dead horse: Where was Netanyahu between 1987 and 2009, when Hamas was founded, when Oslo Accords were signed, when Israel was recognized by the PLO, when Hamas and PLO had a civil war, when Israel left Gaza, and when Hamas finally usurped power in Gaza?

And when did netanyahu make hamas his partner?

Hint: the chronology doesn't add up.

[Autumn]

37. That's all you're getting from me. BeastlyBoy. You responded to MY post to someone else.

If you want a discussion with me then respond to my post don't attempt to drag me into your other conversations. You want an answer game go find the answers I don't owe you any. But I'm sure you know the answers to your questions.

Once again.

Netanyahu has kept Hamas in power to make sure Palestinian not become a state.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products

[Beastly Boy]

39. Oh, this makes things so much clearer than the last five times you posted it

I really didn't want a discussion with you, and I didn't get any. Of course I didn't expect you to be able to make any chronological sense with your reply, and you did not disappoint. Nor did I drag you into any of my other conversations - you seem to be doing this at your own volition, and without invitation.

So bookmark this post as a reminder to yourself to not respond to my posts to someone else.

[Autumn]

40. So demanding.

[Beastly Boy]

42. Yeah, an expectation of making some sense in a response is demanding in the extreme!

[Beastly Boy]

28. Surely you are not arguing that Israel had any interest in creating hamas.

If I understand, you are arguing that Israel figuratively created Hamas by the virtue of Israel's occupation of Gaza.

Let me remind you that Hamas came to power in Gaza only after Israel withdrew from it in 2005, and after the civil war between PLO and Hamas. That Hamas took power away from the Gazans by the force of their own oppressive regime, not that of Israel. That Iran and Qatar financed the creation of Hamas. And these are the literal and physical events, not figurative ones.

Furthermore, you can't even argue that without Israel there would be no Hamas: they are just as active, albeit on a smaller scale, in committing terrorist acts in Egypt. And you wouldn't argue that Egypt's occupation of Gaza created Hamas, would you? Figuratively or otherwise.

[AloeVera]

15. Fuel.

You must know that without fuel nothing can run. Electricity, water treatment plants, desalination plants, sanitation, hospitals etc

Israel has refused to let in fuel delivery for over a month.

As the Occupying Power besieging the enclave, it's going to be Israel, not Hamas, who will be held responsible for the untold number of deaths resulting from their unfathomable decision.

As people, we should all be concerned at the prospect of millions of people dying from thirst, starvation and disease.

[Beastly Boy]

17. Hamas has fuel for their tunnels.

UN has fuel as of two days ago (https://news.yahoo.com/israel-approves-fuel-un-trucks-220033223.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall).

Israel will not be held responsible just because you want Israel to be held responsible.

[AloeVera]

19. I see.

You don't want the people in the hospital to be helped? That's what your argument boils down to.

We don't care if you are suffering and may die, even though we are the ones who refuse to let fuel in, because you can get the fuel from Hamas. Never mind that we are shooting anybody in the vicinity of the hospital that we have full control of, Hamas should find a way to get the fuel to you. If they don't, that's not our problem and we are not responsible. For any of it.

I see.

[Beastly Boy]

21. Wrong again

I do want people in the hospitals to be helped. And Hamas has the closest source of fuel. Also, Hamas is responsible for the welfare of their people. Also, Hamas doesn't give a shit.

Israel gave more shit about the palsetinians than Hamas ever did for them.

And this is Israel's fault... why?

Because this is the narrative you want to push. And this is the narrative that excuses Hamas. Every frigging time you push it.

[AloeVera]

24. I don't think so.

I kind of take offense at accusations that I am excusing Hamas. I am not excusing anybody that has responsibility for this real life horror show, whether Hamas or Israel.

The narrative that Hamas has fuel or the newest one now - that they are the "closest" source of fuel - really, really bothers me. You want to know why? It's because it pushes responsibility on a party which by most descriptions is "evil, uncaring for the Palestinians, cowardly" etc. If that is true, and I'm not saying it isn't, then why on earth would you want innocent people's lives to hang in the balance based on the whims of such people?

Every time someone says ask Hamas for fuel/water/food/medicine, it's a death knell for more innocents because it abdicates responsibility for them and sweeps their suffering under the rug.

It's not just me who thinks that yes, this is Israel's fault. For no other reason than that they are the ones denying/blocking the entry of fuel, food, medicine. They are the ones besieging the entire population of Gaza like we were back in the days of barbarism and the UN and the Geneva Conventions never happened.

Where is this all leading? People are going to start dropping soon from starvation, lack of water and horrible shit like cholera. It won't matter a fig then really whether Hamas has fuel or not.

Thanks for listening.

[Beastly Boy]

26. I don't want the Palestinians to suffer based on the whims of evil and uncaring people.

But they have been subject to the whims of evil and uncaring people, way before the war started . You seem to have problems acknowledging it, ust as you seem to have problems acknowledging Hamas' responsibility to protect the Gazans. Somehow, it always comes down to Israel being at fault for Hamas not giving a shit about the Gazans.

All your references to deaths and suffering of the Palestinians ring hollow when you refuse, time and again, to place the responsibility for their deaths and suffering on their long time rulers, where it rightfully belongs.

Every time someone doesn't say ask Hamas for fuel/water/food/medicine, it's a death knell for more innocents because it abdicates responsibility for them and sweeps their suffering under the rug. Why are you pretending it is someone else's responsibility?

[AloeVera]

30. Re-victimization OK?

Only Israel has the power now to ease Palestinian suffering and stop the killings. They are the ones inflicting the current suffering and killings. You want them to evade responsibility and hence avoid taking action. I don't.

There is no more blaming Hamas, they are done.

You either want to end the suffering now or you don't.

Based on your continued blame-Hamas mode of attack, the answer to me is that you don't.

You seem OK with the collective punishment inflicted on these people and your only justification seems to be that they were already victims, someone else did it to them before. Can you not see that?

[Beastly Boy]

32. Absolutely false.

Hamas always had that power, and it still does. They can release the hostages, they can end bloodshed, they can provide fuel to the Gazans. Hell, they can just simply cease and desist, and this alone will provide a great deal of relief to the Gazans, let alone allow foreign aid to flow back to the civilians.

And hell yeah, Hamas did punish the Gazan civilians before and they are still at it. This is not a justification, it's a fact.

Israel doesn't act in a vacuum. Everything you are lamenting about is the consequence of Hamas' action. No Hamas, no killings. No Hamas, no suffering. No Hamas, no hostages. No Hamas, no fuel shortages. No Hamas, no bloodthirsty lunatics running Gaza. No Hamas, no IDF in Gaza. And Hamas will only be done when they are done, not when you say they are done.

[Autumn]

38. What people don't want to admit is Hamas cares as little about the Palestinian people as

Neytenyaku does. Must not allow any sympathy for the people. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[AloeVera]

20. Not okay.

As for your point that the UN has fuel,;the article states that it is meant for U.N. trucks only, NOT HOSPITALS.

Not hospitals. No aid for the dying and suffering.

This is not okay.

[Beastly Boy]

25. So you are not contesting that Hamas has fuel for the dying and suffering

And it's ok that they hoard it?

Ok.

[AloeVera]

33. Not morally sound and dishonest.

No one knows if Hamas has fuel or not, including you.

How can I contest something that is not known?

But you glossed over my point. If Hamas never cared about Palestinians, surely they are not going to start now. To claim that they should, while knowing that they won't, is not an honest position nor morally sound.

You know fuel will not come from Hamas.

You support the continued blockade of fuel by Israel to hospitals etc.

Therefore you support the continued collective punishment and suffering.

[Beastly Boy]

35. Now you are not even trying. Just making up excuses

Both the Usraeli intelligence and the US intelligence reported on Hamas hoarding fuel. The US intelligence even came up with an estimate: about 240,000 gallons, I believe. Hamas never challenged either the amoumt or the fact itself. If you still think that nobody knows about it, you are just choosing to ignore the facts. The words "morally unsound" and "dishonest" do indeed come to mind.

Back to your point, though, and I made this clear several times, all in vain, Hamas never gave a crap about Gaza civilians, not even in the best of times. Their leaders openly spoke on record that they do not consider gaza civilians their problem, and that the UN should care for them instead. Strangely, you don't find this "fuck you" attitude in the least bit objectionable. Nor do you find the hoarding of supplies for their own use as thousands of children die objectionable. Instead, you blame Israel for what Hamas was supposed to do before a single Israeli bomb fell on Gaza, and what Hamas told the world is UN's responsibility.

I knew long ago that the fuel is not going to come from Hamas. Is that your excuse to absolve them from their responsibility to deliver fuel to Gaza civilians? You have no idea whether I am supporting the continued blockade of fuel to Gaza hospitals. All you know is that I am opposing Hamas' blockade of their fuel to Gaza hospitals. And since you express concern for Gaza civilians and hospital patients in virtually every post of yours, why don't YOU?

So if you keep deflecting from Hamas and blaming their every crime on Israel, how morally sound and intellectually honest is your point?

[AloeVera]

41. Couple of questions for you.

Your alarming need for me to agree with you on Hamas' culpability is noted.

I can't verify your claim of 240,000 gallons estimated by the U.S. Israel, however has claimed 200,000 gallons. I don't reflexively believe second-hand reports citing anonymous U.S. and Israeli officials, with no evidence provided, but you clearly do.

If Hamas has the ability and the means to help save the hospitals and their people, and they willfully refuse to do so, I condemn that without hesitation. If Hamas was hoarding fuel and other necessities before the war, and that caused loss of life and deprivation and they didn't care, I strongly condemn that too. But I don't recall reading about that, it did not seem to be an issue of concern internationally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope that makes you feel better. Now let's look at Israel's culpability.

The people are on the verge of starvation, patients have been scattered across North Gaza walking from hospital to hospital, most of which are closed. A health catastrophe with diseases like cholera is looming due to lack of safe drinking water.

You have admitted you knew Hamas would not give fuel or aid. Israel must know this as well. In spite of this knowledge, Israel has willfully blocked fuel from entering Gaza. That I believe is in violation of their responsibility as an occupying power in this war to protect the basic needs of civilians.

So in a nutshell, Israel knew aid was not coming from Hamas, but refused to let others help provide aid for 5 weeks, creating the looming crisis and the horrendous suffering.

I don't know how to better explain to you that this is wrong. I don't see any reason for it except to punish and exact vengeance and suffering on Gazans collectively for having supported Hamas.

The "Hamas has fuel" is a useful narrative, with the aim of evading responsibility. Some people such as yourself actually believe or at least promote this pretext as a means to deflect from Israel's culpability.

Yes, I do find the willful blockade and evasion of responsibility using a false pretext to be immoral and dishonest.

No, I don't know whether you've supported the blockade of fuel by Israel to hospitals, if I assumed wrong you should state your position clearly.

Did you support the continued blockade of fuel etc. by Israel?
Do you admit Israel has culpability in the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding?

[Beastly Boy]

44. I love questions. But let's get your statements (and mine) sorted out first.

-"I can't verify your claim of 240,000 gallons estimated by the U.S. Israel, however has claimed 200,000 gallons. I don't reflexively believe second-hand reports citing anonymous U.S. and Israeli officials, with no evidence provided". The number of gallons of fuel Hamas hoards cannot be verified by either of us, but the amount hardly matters. You may question the accuracy of a US intelligence report, but you have no standing to deny it: Hamas tunnels have electricity, their generators are running, their missiles are firing at Israel, their fighters are using civilians as human shields. There is hard evidence, independent of your opinions, to all of this.

-"The people are on the verge of starvation, patients have been scattered across North Gaza walking from hospital to hospital, most of which are closed." This statement, especially in light of the way you framed it, is based on anecdotal accounts, not independent empirical evidence. While the instances you described are widely reported, few, if any, attempts to quantify or qualify the extent of accuracy of these reports have been attempted, and the data is simply not there to make definitive conclusions. Until and unless solid empirical evidence emerges, let's call these reports... well, anecdotal.

"If Hamas has the ability and the means to help save the hospitals and their people, and they willfully refuse to do so", etc. Hamas has always had the ability and the means to help hospitals: just move their military and terrorist infrastructure away and leave the hospital free of means to wage war, as international law demands, that's all it takes.. Moreover, Hamas spokespeople are on record as being contemptuous, not helpless, when talking about helping save hospitals, patients, people on the verge of starvation, or anyone other than themselves. This is undeniable. Let me hear you drop the "if" pretense and condemn Hamas outright. You think you can bring yourself to doing this?

"A health catastrophe with diseases like cholera is looming due to lack of safe drinking water.", "Israel has willfully blocked fuel from entering Gaza." , "Israel knew aid was not coming from Hamas, but refused to let others help provide aid for 5 weeks, creating the looming crisis and the horrendous suffering", etc. Israel, either as an occupying power or as a belligerent combatant, is not obligated to provide humanitarian aid to a territory that is not being administered by Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, is. Just because Hamas is refusing to live up to their obligations, doesn't create any additional obligations on the part of Israel. Any humanitarian aid to be delivered to gaza from outside its borders is subject to negotiations between multiple parties, and if negotiations fail for any reason, it is ridiculous to presume Israel's sole opposition to the aid.

There is an enormous, and apparently impenetrable wall between what you feel and what the various international conventions have articulated through the years. You continue to automatically presume Israel's guilt in any situation without as much as being aware of what you are talking about.

Now, at last, your questions, as you framed them:

-"Did you support the continued blockade of fuel etc. by Israel? As I explained above, presuming that the blockade is "by Israel" is ridiculous. So my direct response is "Does not apply". Do I support the blockade in general? Absolutely not. Do I support a cease fire for Gaza? When the military situation on the ground permits it, yes. And again, this is subject to negotiations between multiple parties, not a unilateral decision by Israel.

-"Do you admit Israel has culpability in the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding?" Absolutely not. And again, this is based on the way you framed your question. In the context of international law, I don't see any reason for Israel to accept culpability on any issues you raised. As a moral judgement, on the other hand, it is too early to gauge the degree of Israel's culpability, if any, at this point, so I reserve my judgement. It seems to me likely that Israel will eventually have to accept some degree of culpability, but it is inconceivable that their degree of culpability will be exceeded by that of Hamas, as you seem to be suggesting again and again.

Finally, I couldn't care less about whether you agree with me on anything or not. If you find the extent of my care for your approvals alarming, who am I to convince you to the contrary?

[AloeVera]

46. Have at it. Or not.

I'm not sure if you are looking for empirical evidence on the starvation aspect, or the patients having to walk to find another hospital, or that the hospitals are closed. I also don't know what would constitute empirical evidence in those cases. Scientific methodology of observation is kind of hard to apply in a war zone especially with no or dwindling number of journalists on the scene and a communications blackout. But I think that the UN workers might have a few things to say to contribute to evidence, which you might or might not hold up as more "credible" than the Palestinian people. Both will will certainly have the "experience" aspect of empirical evidence.

You insist on empirical evidence for my claims, so I'm doing the same for yours.

Hamas tunnels have electricity, their generators are running, their missiles are firing at Israel, their fighters are using civilians as human shields. There is hard evidence, independent of your opinions, to all of this.

So far the IDF has not attempted to go down the tunnels (or at least the one "hole" that they've discovered as "evidence" of the tunnels) so no empirical evidence from them yet about the electrical usage of those tunnels. There might be a few pictures from before the war, claiming to be the tunnels, but without independent verification I wouldn't call that empirical evidence. As for rockets, regular fuel is not used in Qassam rockets employed by Hamas. It uses a mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate. You could Wiki that if you don't believe me. I wasn't aware that Hamas' use of human shields requires electricity or fuel.

As for who is responsible for the siege/blockade:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/

October 9, 2023:

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.

I'd like to know who, in your opinion, is blocking/obstructing aid, if not Israel? Is it Hamas, Egypt, the international community, the UN or maybe the Gazan people themselves?

You can look up the specific articles in the Geneva Convention pertaining to the responsibilities of Israel towards the civilian population. Here's a quick overview from Human Rights Watch:

The laws of war do not prohibit sieges or blockades of enemy forces, but they may not include tactics that prevent civilians’ access to items essential for their survival, such as water, food, and medicine. Parties to the conflict must allow and facilitate the rapid passage of impartial humanitarian aid for all civilians in need. Aid may be inspected but not arbitrarily delayed.

In addition, during military occupations, such as in Gaza, the occupying power has a duty under the Fourth Geneva Convention, to the fullest extent of the means available to it, “of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population.” Starvation as a method of warfare is prohibited and is a war crime.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/18/israel-unlawful-gaza-blockade-deadly-children

I don't think many people in the world are currently blaming Hamas for the evolving catastrophe and suffering but are pointing their finger directly at Israel. You just might be in the minority but of course you are entitled to your views.

Have at it as you will. Or not.

[enid602]

27. IDF

IDF just announced this afternoon that they will start intensifying bombings in Southern Gaza. Looks like Northern Gaza is all played out.