Bernie Sanders: One thing is clear there cannot be a return to the status quo that existed in Gaza before the war

[Donkees]

Gaza needs a humanitarian pause. Then we need a vision of where we go from here
Bernie Sanders

One thing is clear: there cannot be a return to the status quo that existed in Gaza before the war

Wed 1 Nov 2023 19.56 EDT

Like any other country, Israel has the right to defend itself and destroy the Hamas terrorists who attacked them. But it does not have the right to kill thousands of innocent men, women and children in Gaza. It does not have the right to endanger the lives of millions of Palestinians – half of whom are children – by shutting off water, food, fuel and electricity. That type of action against a helpless and impoverished population is morally unacceptable and in violation of international law. Recently, Israel struck the densely populated Jabalia refugee camp and killed a Hamas commander. But they also killed some 50 other people and injured hundreds more. Alongside innocent Palestinian men, women and children, many aid workers are being killed. Up to this point, some 67 United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) workers have been killed and 44 facilities damaged.

An immediate humanitarian response is vitally important, but it is equally important for Israel to have a political strategy. It cannot bomb its way to a long-term solution. Such a strategy must include, as minimum first steps: a clear promise that Palestinians displaced in the fighting will have the absolute right to safely return to their homes; a commitment to broader peace talks to advance a two-state solution in the wake of this war; an abandonment of Israeli efforts to carve up and annex the West Bank; and a commitment to work with the international community to build genuine Palestinian governing capacity.

The United States, which provides $3.8bn a year in military aid to Israel, should make it clear that these are the conditions of our solidarity. Just as we want Israel to be a vibrant democracy, safe from terrorist attacks, we also want justice and dignity for the Palestinian people. That’s not going to happen with Hamas running the Gaza Strip. It is also not going to happen with continued Israeli domination of Palestinian life.

Palestinians need a state of their own, contiguous, with the freedom of movement and access that can sustain a vibrant economy. Palestinians need a democratic society in which they can elect their leadership and express their views.

This will be a long and difficult road. It will take concerted US and international support, and a doubling down of our political commitment to a two-state solution. We must begin this work with a new sense of urgency, the horrific disaster that has taken place in Israel and Gaza over the last three weeks has shown that the status quo cannot continue. For the sake of the Palestinian people, and for the people of Israel, we must create a process which ends the hatred, the cycle of violence, and allows all to live in peace and security.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders

[hueymahl]

1. Wise words from one of our best

Hopefully important people will listen to him.

[WalkerinSC]

2. Unfortunately

Hamas leadership, safely tucked away in other countries, have vowed to keep attacking and destroy Israel, even if it takes every man, woman, and child in Gaza being maimed and/or killed. A humanitarian pause just allows Hamas to regroup, reload, and prolong the conflict. Civilians getting killed in war is regrettable. War in and of itself is one of the stupidest inventions mankind ever devised. Most likely the two state solution died in October. At best, Israel and the West Bank will have an uneasy relationship with WB being the DeFacto second state and Gaza being a wasteland or absorbed into Israel proper and Palestinians moved to West Bank or other country.

[erodriguez]

3. Civilians getting killed is regrettable? Huh?

This is the kind of rhetoric used by right wingers.

Sorry but there can be no peace because we can never give Hamas a chance to regroup. Those people caught in the crossfire? Regrettable.

The right wing government of Israel since Netenyahu came to power has worked against any two state solution. Palestinian people would never be allowed to absorb into "Israel proper" and be given the rights of an Israeli citizen.

The US should withhold military aid without a clear plan backed by the Israeli government for a two state solution.

If the government of Israel thinks that's a bad deal. They should find another country to supply them with weapons to regrettably kill innocent people. The United States should not be funding this war.

[WalkerinSC]

5. Not right wing rhetoric

it's taking the historical perspective of war. Many times civilian deaths far exceed military deaths in any war.

Israel can want a two-state solution all it wants. Unfortunately the other side wants to 'cleanse' the land of all Jews.

I have to assume that you believe as long as Hamas sets up inside civilian areas they are untouchable? If Russia sets up completely inside civilian areas of the Ukraine and bombards Kiev, they just have to wait until the troops come out? If Hitler had lined up French civilians along Normandy Beaches, well I guess D-Day just gets postponed?

So yes, civilian deaths in war are regrettable. War isn't pretty, or nice, or contained to a chessboard with only combatants being killed. One day the Palestinians will get tired of being pawns to Hamas. So far that doesn't seem the case.

Finally, the US shouldn't be funding ANY wars. We don't need hundreds of overseas bases. I am not a proponent of full isolationism, that ship sailed long ago. We can and should be a broker of peace, but unless both sides want a solution and can agree to a solution than this is what we get. The cycle of violence that will not end and regrettably it's the regular people who get caught in the meat grinder.

[erodriguez]

8. Strawman arguments are just sad.

The other side is Hamas, a terrorist organization of about 50k amongst a population of 5 Million half of which are children. 1% of the people.

Hamas has terrorized Palestinians and Israelis. They came to power 15 years ago after fake elections and and a terror campaign in which they threw their opposition off of buildings. Most Palestinians were either children or not born when they took over Gaza.

Most of the Palestinians being killed in this war are innocent people.

A two state solution is the only way to rid Palestinians of Hamas. Palestinians need the ability to actually govern themselves.

Murdering innocent people will only strengthen the terrorists. It's what terrorists want.

The right wing government of Israel is making the same dumb moves as the US did after 9-11. They are playing right into the plans of Hamas.

[moonshinegnomie]

10. Until Gaza rises up against Hamas

We can assume they at least tacitly support them

As you said there are 50k Hamas terrorists. And 2 million civilians. If the civilians really want to stop the war they would rise up against Hamas. Publicize where the Hamas tunnels are.

Until that happens Israel isn’t going to stop nor should they

[ramen]

13. I hope it never happens, but remember these words if christofascism fully takes over this country. nt

[WalkerinSC]

11. Willfully ignoring reality is sad

Most people killed in urban warfare are civilians. And just where is this second state to come from? You have the West Bank. Are you just going to cut the bottom off of Israel to link to Gaza. Or run a strip of land through it to connect? Also we have seen cease fires come and go. Has anyone in Gaza ever stepped up to point out what Hamas does? It remains poor despite mountains of aid that does nothing but build rockets and tunnels. Those same rockets and tunnels are purposely built in civilian areas.

Once again I ask, if the Axis powers lined the beaches with French civilians and placed artillery and rocket batteries in houses and command centers in hospitals, would you have called off D-Day? Would you have sacked Sherman for looting the countryside and burning cities and killing civilians? Using your thought process The US would be 2 countries now with blacks still enslaved because 3% of the population controlled the south but innocent civilians would get killed in a war and a two state solution would solve it.

(I'm not saying you actually believe everything above personally. It is more of a rhetorical rebuttal. I don't like civilian casualties. That would just be morbid. I just view conflict through a historical lens. I am of the "Fight to Win - Break the Will of the Opposition" school of warfare. It can be argued it cost less lives in the long run. There are so many components to this conflict (Historical, Religious, Regional, etc) that I fear there are no simple solutions.

Just know I respect you and your opinion.

[erodriguez]

14. You really love to put words into other people's mouths

Whatever imaginary scenarios that you keep supposing have no bearing into my thoughts on this situation.

You are saying that I would be pro-slavery. Your post is absolutely offensive.

I have stated it clearly. The US should not support this war which is killing innocent people.

Israel's right wing government is making the same mistakes the US did after 9-11. By bombing the hell out of Gaza and making 1 million refugees, they are playing right into the plans of Hamas and their backers.

When the right wing government of the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan with no plan, they made a bigger mess, killing hundreds of thousands, and laying the foundation for the creation of Isis, and set US domestic policy back. The only people who benefitted were US military contractors and their stock holders.

The Israeli government has no plan other than destruction. It will not end well for them and does not make Israelis safer.

[WalkerinSC]

16. And you are incapable of nuance

Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day.

[erodriguez]

17. Nuance? What nuance?

You said my thinking would support the continuation of slavery.

Being a person of color who has enslaved ancestors, I find your post greatly offensive.

Adding well this is just rhetorical... Doesn't cut it.

Learn to talk to people. Really. Spend some time actually trying to understand how actual human beings think.

The world is not suppositions, theories and rhetoric, it's flesh and blood.

[WalkerinSC]

20. I simply led your argument

to its logical conclusion. I have stated facts, backing up my assertions and included examples. You simply ignore them, take offense to what I state and come back with how I hurt your feelings. I'm sorry you feel attacked. Your enslaved ancestors give you no more moral authority than my imprisoned ancestors on Barbados give me. The world is flesh and blood. It is also shades of grey. As I stated earlier we won't come to an agreement and I have no desire to argue the point further. My recommendation to you is to click on my name above and select the ignore option. That way I will no longer be able to hurt your delicate feelings and we can continue to enjoy the bounty of debate and commentary that is available here.

[Jay25]

18. Well said.

[Richard D]

12. Sanders said:

"A two state solution is the only way to rid Palestinians of Hamas. Palestinians need the ability to actually govern themselves"

Nice words, but, and perhaps most do not understand or are unwilling to understand that the goal of Hamas is a one-state solution, with all Jews either killed or driven out of Israel and all of "Palestine" being an Islamic state.

As long as Hamas exists as it does today there can be no peace. How can you find peace with a people whose only goal is to kill you? It is not possible.

If you are hoping for a kumbaya moment, it ain't coming. When a person tells you who they are, disbelieve them at your great peril. A head of Hamas speaks of their goals:

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified

[wnylib]

22. The word strawman gets tossed around pretty freely

in DU posts. Whenever there's a disagreement on an issue, the other opinion becomes a strawman. There is such a thing as an analogy. The post that you responded to made an argument based on war analogies. If you think that the analogies are not valid, then why not say that and point out why the analogies don't fit? Dismissing a differing view by calling it a strawman is lazy.

Whether or not the analogies hold up, it is a fact of war that civilians die. That's what makes war so terrible.

I am glad that much needed aid is getting through to Gaza now and that civilians of other countries are able to get out, along with sick and wounded people who need medical care. I also believe that Hamas will use this opportunity to regroup and to slip away from the IDF which is getting very close to direct contact with Hamas. The civilians have to have needed aid, but it is true that a ceasefire aids Hamas at the same time.

I agree that Netanyahu is an obstacle to a 2 state solution and has been intentionally obstructing it. I believe that, without international pressure, Netanyahu would drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and take the land for Israel. He might even be bold enough to do it despite international pressure not to.

The West Bank settlements began right after the 1967 war, long before Netanyahu, but he makes that situation even worse. The settlements never should have been allowed in the first place.

There are some factual realities to deal with regarding the 2 state solution. Besides Netanyahu, there is the fact that long before Hamas existed, the majority of Palestinian Arabs wanted all of Palestine for their own state. Before the British left the region, Palestinian Arabs formed militia groups to attack Jewish homes and businesses to drive them out. When the UN voted for a 2 state partition the Palestinian Arabs rejected it and started a war against Jews in order to establish an Arabs only state for the entire territory. The Jews declared themselves a nation, fought back, and won. That's why civilian Palestinian Arabs fled and the militants were forced out. It's why Israel will not let them return.

The majority of Palestinians are not terrorists. But the majority still view the entire territory as theirs alone. It would be just as hard to get them to agree 2 states as it would to persuade Netanyahu if he remains in power.

More than a political solution, the Palestinians and Israelis need a cultural solution, one that changes attitudes enough for each side to stop claiming all of the land and to recognize the rights of each other. Somehow, they must find common ground in the benefit of having 2 states in the region. They could start with recognizing the benefits of peace for both sides.

[Lonestarblue]

4. Thank you, Bernie. Excellent comments on a divisive topic.

[ratchiweenie]

6. Yes. Bernie is expressing what many, if not most, of us believe. I don't think he is

naive or believes it will be easy but what is going on there now is not easy. It's horrible for all involved.

[LittleGirl]

7. Read the whole thing

It’s well written and truthful. It helped me understand the whole thing better.

I’ve never seen peace in the M.E. and it’s maddening that it just never ends.

[Martin Eden]

9. Bernie is Spot-on. Sadly. I don't think a Palestinian state in the WB is possible

That would require the Jewish residents in West Bank settlements to accept living in the Palestian state under their rule with no Israeli forces to protect them.

**OR**

The Israeli government will have to forcibly remove them. They will NOT abandon their homes (some multi-generational) voluntarily. And WHERE would they be removed TO? Does Israel have a surplus of vacant homes comparable to what they currently have?

Even if Netanyahu is replaced with a more liberal government, I don’t think forcibly removing settlers from their homes is politically viable.

Just think about this for a minute.

Hamas unleashed a horrific terrorist attack murdering 1400 Israelis including women and children, and this unspeakable atrocity results in the forcible removal of thousands of Jewish families from their homes?

I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to justify anything, including the WB settlements which I've always opposed.

I'm just trying to assess the reality of the situation. I don't have an alternative to the Two State solution. I'm explaining why I think it's impossible, at least in the foreseeable future.

[Jay25]

19. Germany horrifically murdered millions of Jewish people,

And Palestinians were the ones forcefully removed from their homes. Why was it ok for them to be forced from their homes? Palestinians had to leave their multigenerational homes and it wasn't voluntarily and no one cared where they would go or how they would end up.

[Martin Eden]

21. Why was it OK?

It wasn't OK.

The difference is the Palestinians did not have the power to stop it.

My post wasn't about justifications or redress of historical grievances. My intent was to analyze the reality of the current sutuation regarding the possibility of a Two State solution.

Do you think thousands of Israeli settlers will voluntarily abandon their WB homes, or that ANY Israeli government will forcibly remove them?

[onecaliberal]

15. Considering many of the homes and apartments were bombed to rubble, yeah. I've been asking that from the jump.

Where are these poor people supposed to return to?

[Skittles]

24. I am disgusted by all of them

sick, sick behavior