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Cooley Hurd

(26,877 posts)
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 02:55 AM Apr 2012

Military Board Says Marine Who Criticized President Obama Should Be Dismissed

Source: NYT

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) — A Marine who criticized President Barack Obama on his Facebook page has committed misconduct and should be dismissed, a military board recommended late Thursday.

The Marine Corps administrative board made the decision after a daylong hearing at Camp Pendleton for Sgt. Gary Stein.

The board also recommended that Stein be given an other-then-honorable discharge. That would mean Stein would lose his benefits and would not be allowed on any military base.

The board's recommendations go to a general who will either accept or deny them. If the general disagrees with the board, the case could go to the secretary of the Navy.

Stein's lawyers argued that the 9-year Marine, whose service was to end in four months, was expressing his personal views and exercising his First Amendment rights.

"We're truly surprised and disappointed but it was an honor to fight for a hero like Sgt. Stein and every other Marine's right to speak freely," Stein's defense attorney Marine Capt. Jame Baehr said."
</snip>

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/04/06/business/ap-us-marine-free-speech.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

49 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Military Board Says Marine Who Criticized President Obama Should Be Dismissed (Original Post) Cooley Hurd Apr 2012 OP
Foregone conclusion SteveABG Apr 2012 #1
Exactly... That's the deal... BadtotheboneBob May 2012 #49
Nine years and he's just an E-5? Lasher Apr 2012 #2
And his lawyer is calling him a hero leftynyc Apr 2012 #3
Everyone's a hero these days Typical NYC Lib Apr 2012 #41
hahahahaha.....great point!!!! Namvet67 Apr 2012 #14
I think a lot of that depends on service / MOS Sgent Apr 2012 #25
other-then-honorable discharge Corgigal Apr 2012 #4
other- "then"-honorable? trusty elf Apr 2012 #5
The one I hate is davidpdx Apr 2012 #18
It is the very worst discharge you can get without being court-martialed first jmowreader Apr 2012 #43
Thanks, I figured it was not too good. trusty elf Apr 2012 #44
Weird. When the "First Shirt" saw my "Asshole Nixon" pic in the barracks, he just laughed.... Scuba Apr 2012 #6
not military, so clueless, but maybe what's in your barracks magical thyme Apr 2012 #10
Well, there was no facebook in 1970, but OK. Of course this was the days of the draft .... Scuba Apr 2012 #16
His statements were a little more problematic than calling the president an asshole jeff47 Apr 2012 #20
Yep, that's way different. Scuba Apr 2012 #21
Thats what ya get sorefeet Apr 2012 #7
I knew I shouldn't have looked at this facebook page. Cobalt Violet Apr 2012 #8
Wrong action Schulz Apr 2012 #9
You have no understanding of the military! tonybgood Apr 2012 #15
Sigh. PavePusher Apr 2012 #37
Which false meme do you refer? tonybgood Apr 2012 #46
This: PavePusher Apr 2012 #47
Not what I was told at the time of indoctrination. tonybgood May 2012 #48
If he had only said he disliked Obama, then you've got a case. jeff47 Apr 2012 #22
Really? In which company leftynyc Apr 2012 #23
No. Military service places restrictions on speech as part of the contract. NutmegYankee Apr 2012 #26
plus he put his complaints iemitsu Apr 2012 #27
Indeed. NutmegYankee Apr 2012 #29
He Was Asking for It mista411 Apr 2012 #33
you want a guy in your unit that sez he will disobey orders?! frylock Apr 2012 #35
Aww don't worry about STEIN! MD20 Apr 2012 #11
He'll be co-hosting with Ollie North. JoePhilly Apr 2012 #24
he'll probably be hired iemitsu Apr 2012 #28
they'll kick him to the curb once he's outlasted his usefullness frylock Apr 2012 #36
Shitcan him.......next question? Namvet67 Apr 2012 #12
Oh, yeah,about that Captain that agreed with Stein... MD20 Apr 2012 #13
Not only agrred, but nearly put him on a pedestal groundloop Apr 2012 #30
when assigned to act as counsel, Dan Apr 2012 #39
Just like those who opposed Bush modrepub Apr 2012 #17
Jackass BeyondGeography Apr 2012 #19
next marshall gaines Apr 2012 #31
The dumbass obviously didn't pay attention during training. qb Apr 2012 #32
To be fair, the shrub was known as the CIC - "Chimp in Charge". HopeHoops Apr 2012 #34
Pack your shit tabasco Apr 2012 #38
Isn't this a case of insubordination? Rhiannon12866 Apr 2012 #40
Goodbye PVT STEIN... Liber-AL Apr 2012 #42
Update--He's been shown the door! MADem Apr 2012 #45

BadtotheboneBob

(413 posts)
49. Exactly... That's the deal...
Tue May 1, 2012, 02:24 PM
May 2012

... You just can't do that. I was in when Nixon was POTUS and he was not well liked by the troops. But, we knew to keep our mouths shut. The day he resigned there was much joy and relief around Brooke Army Medical Center, I'm tellin' ya.

Lasher

(27,501 posts)
2. Nine years and he's just an E-5?
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 03:19 AM
Apr 2012

Last edited Fri Apr 6, 2012, 01:04 PM - Edit history (1)

What a loser, I made it that far in less than 2 years.

Edit to clarify: I was offered E-5 after having served about 18 months. I turned it down. I just wanted to get the hell out.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
3. And his lawyer is calling him a hero
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:26 AM
Apr 2012

For what!! He broke the military code of conduct and that makes him a hero? This has nothing to do with free speech and it's an insult to the constitution to say it does.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
25. I think a lot of that depends on service / MOS
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:40 AM
Apr 2012

no question an E-5 after 9 years is pretty bad, but I know (for instance) that infantry marines tend to move up very slowly -- at least a few years ago. Most ust make corporal after a 4 year enlistment, with a few meritorious (outside normal channels) promotions to sergeant.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
4. other-then-honorable discharge
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 05:35 AM
Apr 2012

Oh, that's going to hurt. This veteran says yes he should and I served under Reagan and never disrespected the Commander in Chief. The voting booth was my only say, it's what you accept when you join the military.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
18. The one I hate is
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:26 AM
Apr 2012

whether or that. It sounds funny coming from someone who is a doctoral student. Damn grammar!

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
43. It is the very worst discharge you can get without being court-martialed first
Sat Apr 7, 2012, 08:53 PM
Apr 2012

It is the administrative version of the Bad Conduct Discharge, which has to be awarded as part of the sentence of a "BCD Special" Court Martial.

The discharge is rarely used because if you're a big enough fuckup to merit an OTH discharge, you did something bad enough that you'd be found guilty at a BCD Special or a General court-martial.

trusty elf

(7,349 posts)
44. Thanks, I figured it was not too good.
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 04:46 AM
Apr 2012

I was just trying to point out the seemingly unnoticed typo "then", which should read "than".

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
6. Weird. When the "First Shirt" saw my "Asshole Nixon" pic in the barracks, he just laughed....
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 06:37 AM
Apr 2012

... of course he knew Nixon was an asshole too.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
10. not military, so clueless, but maybe what's in your barracks
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:53 AM
Apr 2012

and what's out on facebook are 2 different things?

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
16. Well, there was no facebook in 1970, but OK. Of course this was the days of the draft ....
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:13 AM
Apr 2012

.... and if everyone who criticized the Prez (and war) were drummed out, there would have been a lot fewer grunts. Heck, it would have become the "section 8" of its day.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
20. His statements were a little more problematic than calling the president an asshole
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:41 AM
Apr 2012

An internal meterologists forum:

As an active-duty Marine, I have sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Obama is the economic enemy, the religious enemy, the domestic enemy.


Facebook:
I say screw Obama. I will not follow orders given by him to me.

tonybgood

(218 posts)
15. You have no understanding of the military!
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:07 AM
Apr 2012

When you enlist in the military, you give up your rights under the Constitution and submit yourself to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. There is no democracy in the military!

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
47. This:
Mon Apr 30, 2012, 12:08 PM
Apr 2012
When you enlist in the military, you give up your rights under the Constitution...


Not true. You still have Constitutional Rights, but they become more limited.


...and submit yourself to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice.


This is true.


There is no democracy in the military!


Not true. You still get to vote and participate in government. You are part of the chain of command with authority (and responsibility) increasing with time, experience and rank. In effect, your vote becomes proportional to your investment. You have input at all levels.

tonybgood

(218 posts)
48. Not what I was told at the time of indoctrination.
Tue May 1, 2012, 08:13 AM
May 2012

The class in basic training said specifically that you suspend your rights under the Constitution and agree to be governed by the UCMJ. As to the democracy in the military, I'm referring to the idea that you "vote" on your leaders and the orders you will obey. Your commanding officer (in your unit) is appointed, not elected. Only the civilian chain-of-command is elected.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
22. If he had only said he disliked Obama, then you've got a case.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:47 AM
Apr 2012

He didn't. On Facebook, he declared he would not follow any orders from Obama. When caught, he "clarified" his statement claiming he only meant unlawful orders - which doesn't make much sense since he's not supposed to obey unlawful orders anyway. There's no need to announce it.

However, that wasn't the only place he was spouting off. He was a meteorologist, and on an internal DoD meteorologists forum:

As an active-duty Marine, I have sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Obama is the economic enemy, the religious enemy, the domestic enemy.


That's going over the line, around the world and back over the line a second time.
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
23. Really? In which company
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:08 AM
Apr 2012

that you've worked at or have heard of anyone working at that you get to trash the boss and keep your job? You don't like the head of your company you either leave or keeping your yap shut. Free speech my ass.

NutmegYankee

(16,178 posts)
26. No. Military service places restrictions on speech as part of the contract.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 10:49 AM
Apr 2012

Order and discipline are vital to a military unit, and you are forbidden to disparage superior officers in your chain of command. This guy knew the rules, and broke them willingly.

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
27. plus he put his complaints
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:03 AM
Apr 2012

in writing. if he had just said these things to other marines he would not be in this hot water.
proclaiming his positions in writing is what will clinch his removal from the marines.

NutmegYankee

(16,178 posts)
29. Indeed.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:10 AM
Apr 2012

Many soldiers have made offhanded remarks that were not acted upon after a short scolding or were brushed off as frustration with the current task, but this guy both wrote it down and went way overboard in his remarks.

mista411

(11 posts)
33. He Was Asking for It
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:48 AM
Apr 2012

If that is the case, he is getting what he asked for. He was insubordinate and disrespected his commander-in-chief, XO, CO and all the above. http://yurconnected.blogspot.com

 

MD20

(123 posts)
11. Aww don't worry about STEIN!
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:54 AM
Apr 2012

He will probably get his own show on Fox News and/or get a job with Blackwater as a hired mecenary. I'm not sure if a less than honorable discharge would prohibit a military contractor from hiring him. Its a shame but good ol' boys like Stein always have a way out. GRRRR!

 

MD20

(123 posts)
13. Oh, yeah,about that Captain that agreed with Stein...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 08:03 AM
Apr 2012

Stein has a right to counsel but I wonder what officer in his right mind would defend such a breech of military discipline. Marine Capt James Baehr's statement is an indictment in and of itself. Now that his mindset is known to parallel that of Stein, I doubt if too many promotions will be coming his way.

groundloop

(11,488 posts)
30. Not only agrred, but nearly put him on a pedestal
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:20 AM
Apr 2012

".... it was an honor to fight for a hero like Sgt. Stein and every other Marine's right to speak freely," Stein's defense attorney Marine Capt. Jame Baehr said."

A "hero", really? Granted, Stein had the right to a lawyer to defend him - but it sounds like he got a cheer-leading section as well.

After reading just the headline I thought "oh no, the military is trampling on some poor soldier". But after reading what Stein wrote it's pretty obvious that he went way over the line. You just can't come out and say that you're going to refuse to follow orders, not in the military or in any other place of employment. If I'd have written that about my companies CEO I'd be out on my ass in a heartbeat. And if anyone in the company had defended that me in such glowing terms they'd be out on their ass as well.

Dan

(3,524 posts)
39. when assigned to act as counsel,
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 09:17 PM
Apr 2012

it is the duty of the person assigned to act in the best interest 'consistent with military law' to defend said offender. His comments were not harmful, Stein might have been a good soldier, but his actions were not consistent with military discipline and expectations. His legal attorney, the Captain, said nor did anything wrong. If he had failed to act in the best manner in attempting to defend the soldier then he would have been subject to military discipline. My thoughts.

qb

(5,924 posts)
32. The dumbass obviously didn't pay attention during training.
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:39 AM
Apr 2012

The two most clear directives I recall from my military service:
1. Do as you're told.
2. Respect your superiors.

Rhiannon12866

(203,030 posts)
40. Isn't this a case of insubordination?
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:46 PM
Apr 2012

That's a firing offense on most jobs and this was an egregious and disrespectful insult to this Marine's Commander in Chief...

MADem

(135,425 posts)
45. Update--He's been shown the door!
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:11 PM
Apr 2012

He's getting a richly deserved OTH on his 214, too. Serves the idiot right--I could see giving a little education to a nitwit in boot camp, but this guy had no excuse for his stupidity.

The judge pointed out Stein's March 1 comments on a Facebook page used by Marine Corps meteorologists in which the sergeant stated, "Screw Obama and I will not follow all orders from him."

The judge's ruling reaffirmed a military hearing earlier this month in which a military board has recommended Stein's dismissal. In that hearing, the government submitted screen grabs of Stein's postings on one Facebook page he created called Armed Forces Tea Party, which the prosecutor said included the image of Obama on the "Jackass" movie poster. Stein also superimposed Obama's image on a poster for "The Incredibles" movie that he changed to "The Horribles," the prosecutor said.

The military has had a policy since the Civil War limiting the free speech of service members, including criticism of the commander in chief.

Pentagon directives say military personnel in uniform cannot sponsor a political club; participate in any TV or radio program or group discussion that advocates for or against a political party...

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0425/Marine-discharged-for-slamming-Obama-on-Facebook

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