Thomas Jefferson statue toppled in Portland, Oregon

[killaphill]

Source: CBS News

A statue of Thomas Jefferson outside a high school named for him in North Portland, Oregon was toppled Sunday after a night of protests, reports CBS Portland, Oregon affiliate KOIN-TV. It was the latest to be vandalized or pulled over in the U.S. and other nations during the racial justice protests that have followed the death of George Floyd at Minneapolis police hands three week ago.

Statues of leading Confederate figures as well as slaveowners and slave traders have been targeted by demonstrators – and in some cases, removed by state and state governments.

The Jefferson statue was the third to be taken down this weekend in Oregon alone: Two at the University of Oregon – the Pioneer Man and the Pioneer Mother – were taken down Saturday evening.

Read more: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thomas-jefferson-statue-toppled-in-portland-oregon/

[bucolic_frolic]

1. While we're at it

why not cancel the Enlightenment? I mean it's not doing anything for us now, is it?

[Steelrolled]

8. The Theatre of the Absurd in its 21st century form.

[milestogo]

2. Now its just mindless fun.

[IronLionZion]

3. A wingnut told me they got an Abe Lincoln statue somewhere

I would think a founder of our country would be better than confederate generals or KKK founders even if he was a slave owner.

[LeftInTX]

4. It was in Mass

Statue of Lincoln with a freed slave kneeling

[killaphill]

5. not so fast....

https://www.wcvb.com/article/boston-controversial-abraham-lincoln-statue-calls-for-removal/32860548

[IronLionZion]

14. I like the idea of designing a new statue

And include POC on the design team so it's less of a white savior image.

[bobbieinok]

7. Had children with his slave Sally Hemmings. Estate didn't free children, IIRC

[MoonchildCA]

12. All of his children were freed upon his death.

And though not officially freed, Sally lived her remaining years with one of the children.
Many of their children passed, and chose to live their life as white, which given the times, is understandable.

[bobbieinok]

16. Thanks for info. Hadn't realized that,

[gladium et scutum]

19. Two of Sally's daughters

were given their freedom prior to Jefferson's death. But they were not formally manumitted. They were give some money, told that they could leave Monticello and would not be pursued. The two young women left and just disappeared off the face of the earth. Nothing is know about their lives after they left Monticello.

[Sneederbunk]

6. It's hard to find Confederate statues in Oregon.

[RussBLib]

9. perhaps we should establish a commission

and discuss which Americans should now get some kind of statue to remember them by? There are lots of great people.

I wonder how many people have no warts at all?

[LanternWaste]

13. How about simply opposing slavery and not owning any...

rather than reducing and minimizing admirable aspects of civic and national duty to "no warts at all"?

[cigsandcoffee]

23. Well, that rules out statues of indigenous Americans.

The Cherokee tribe, as well as the Creeks, Choctaws, and Chickasaws all owned thousands of slaves.

The list grows shorter...

[melm00se]

24. Jefferson was a complicated guy

While he did own slaves, he also

- called out slavery in the Declaration but was overridden at the Continental Congress and that wordage was struck.
- led the charge for a ban on slave importation into Virginia in 1778.
- proposed federal legislation banning slavery in the New Territories of the North and South after 1800 (it did not pass by 1 vote).
- proposed and signed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves just after timeline expired for laws about slavery that was embedded in Article I, Section 9, Clause 1 US Constitution.
- expressed his opinion of slavery in multiple letters, words like "moral depravity", "hideous blot". - stated that slavery was against the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty
- worked to move away from labor (slave) intensive crops.

But to some none of that overcomes the fact that he owned slaves.

[Scruffy1]

30. His slaves were mortgaged.

He was always deep in debt

[melm00se]

33. So were a lot

of that era's planters.

The "normal" debts were bad enough but they were exacerbated by two pretty bid debts that he inherited (from his father-in-law and a note that Jefferson cosigned).

[Johnyawl]

10. I spent my Junior year of HS in the Portland School District (1966)

At that time Thomas Jefferson HS was the districts predominantly black HS. If that is still the case I can understand why they would tear down the statue.

[Drahthaardogs]

11. This is getting stupid

Seriously.

[Sarg]

15. This is what conservatives always said would happen

You set a precedent by taking down the Confederate statues. Once that happens, Washington, Jefferson, et al. are fair game.

I hate to say the conservatives were right.

This really is starting to feel like a "cultural revolution," and not in a good way. It will end badly, just as Mao's revolution did.

Reform the police. Stop destroying statues.

[cigsandcoffee]

26. Yes, those crafty conservatives saw this coming. n/t

[warmfeet]

17. Whatever side you may come down on,

the important thing is that a dialogue has been started.

Let's keep it going.

Please, for the long term health of our society, let's keep it going.

[RobinA]

34. I Believe

that the current dialogue is quite harmful to our society, as it stresses division and intolerance of differing ways of thinking.

[TheFourthMind]

18. Did Jefferson own slaves? n/t

[gladium et scutum]

20. Over 600 in his life time

five were freed while he lived. Five were freed by his will, after his death. Most of the slaves at the Jefferson properties in Virginia were sold after his death to satisfy the estate's debts.

[Collimator]

22. Yes, Jefferson did own slaves.

But it is not what he is known for. He didn't spend his time and energy and rhetoric on holding up the value of slavery and declaring it essential to some particular "way of life" that had to be defended with bloodshed against the possibility of change.

That is the difference between Thomas Jefferson and Jefferson Davis. There were men at the Continental
Congress who opposed slavery. They cut a political deal with the men from the slave-holding states. It wasn't pretty and slavery has been called America's original sin.

But they did what they did and founded a country. The price for the hypocrisy of our founders was paid in our civil war, and continues to be paid with the division that poisons our country.

But the words and the ideals are still valid even if the men penning them at the start didn't live up to those ideals. If you're going to tear down Jefferson's statue you may as well tear up the Declaration of Independence. The image of the man, the ideals of the man, and the flaws of the man are all one in the same.

[McKim]

21. This is Great News!

This is great news!!! Jefferson High School in Portland Oregon is THE public high school in the transitional Black Community. It’s time for a renaming. Jeff High has been a great high school back in the day before big cuts. Many Black leaders came from there. It’s time for MLK High or whatever the community wants. Past time for Jefferson to go! And yes he owned slaves and when he died they were not freed. Due to his debts, they were sold down the river to a harsh end in the cane fields!

[Polybius]

25. Now they've gone too far

I hate this, Jefferson was a Founding Father and one of the greatest intellectuals of his time.

[sarisataka]

27. Can Lincoln be far behind? nt

[Gore1FL]

28. For what reason? nt

[sarisataka]

29. He was a white supremacist

The Emancipation Proclamation was not made out of any great belief in equality but more to appease abolitionists and keep their support.

ETA> while he was opposed to slavery, he would have allowed it to continue if that was the price to maintain the Union.
as to equality:

“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races … I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be a position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”

-said by Lincoln during his debates with Stephen Douglas

[Gore1FL]

31. It's true he was a Unionist. His first priority was that.

He didn't set out to free the slaves, he set out to preserve the union. In the end his work lead to both. It's hard to argue with results.

[sarisataka]

32. True, he did achieve both things

preserving the country and eventually and end to slavery, he was a man of his times. To some that is a disqualifier.

I can accept monuments to great people while acknowledging their flaws, but also can agree statues of the villains of history should not be put in places of honor.