Pathologist: Epstein body shows signs of homicide

[JaneQPublic]

Source: The Hill

A famed forensic pathologist on Wednesday said that sex offender Jeffrey Epstein’s body showed a number of signs of homicide despite a medical examiner ruling that Epstein had committed suicide.

Michael Baden, a former New York City medical examiner who has been hired Epstein’s brother to look into the matter, told “Fox & Friends” that after studying Epstein’s body, he thinks the sex offender was killed.


“I think the evidence points to a homicide rather than a suicide,” he said.

“Because there are three fractures in the hyoid bone, the thyroid cartilage that are very unusual for suicide and more indicative of strangulation — homicidal strangulation,” Baden added.

Read more: https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/468071-pathologist-epstein-body-shows-signs-of-homicide?__twitter_impression=true

[Historic NY]

1. This might get interesting.

[calimary]

33. Yep, especially since dead men tell no tales.

Wouldn’t surprise me if this road led back to trump somehow. I bet Epstein knew tons of shit that donald wouldn’t want all the little old teabagger ladies to know.

[femmocrat]

2. This should surprise no one.

Although who knows if the truth will ever come out!

[JaneQPublic]

3. Right. As the pathologist said...

“I’ve never seen in 50 years of investigating all deaths that occur in prisons in New York state never have two guards fall asleep at the same time, while the video doesn’t work.”

[femmocrat]

4. Wouldn't even make a good TV script.

It’s too obvious!

[JaneQPublic]

10. Ha! True.

But, then, similar could be said of much of the events occurring since Trump took the White House.

They are either too obvious or too outlandish, with a POTUS who's like a poorly drawn arch-villain character from a penny arcade melodrama. Sad but true.

[Lonestarblue]

17. Yes, Trump's motto is "If you commit crimes in plain sight, no one will notice."

Plus, the entire Republican Party has gone blind and deaf to reason and honesty. They see the crimes but just do not care.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

5. Exactly!

[CountAllVotes]

6. Dead men don't talk

n/t

[knightmaar]

7. This seems a bit sloppy.

I expect the "suicides" at this level to be impeccably suicidal in appearance.

[Mike 03]

8. Interesting. Just wish it was a more credible pathologist

WAPO: JFK, O.J. and now Epstein: ‘Celebrity pathologist’ Michael Baden has seen his share of controversial cases

Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/13/michael-baden-jeffrey-epstein-autopsy/

Excerpt:

The congressional investigation marked the start of Baden’s rise to prominence, but it also coincided with a rocky period of his career. He was appointed New York City’s chief medical examiner in 1978, only to be fired less than a year later after clashing with other top officials. After taking a new post as the chief deputy medical examiner for Suffolk County, in Long Island, he became embroiled in a bizarre controversy. In 1982, an article in Oui magazine quoted Baden giving advice about what drugs to use to commit murder and how to avoid being detected. The county executive demanded his ouster, but Baden denied that he had ever spoken with the magazine. Ultimately, the freelancer who had written the article admitted to fabricating quotes, and Baden was allowed to keep his job.


By 1985, Baden had moved on to a new position as the director of forensic sciences for the New York State Police. The role was only part-time, which allowed him to handle private cases on the side, as long as they didn’t bring him into conflict with New York state prosecutors, he later told the Los Angeles Times. Serving as a defense witness for star-studded trials in California was fair game, and before long, he was making frequent trips to the West Coast, commanding six-figure fees for his expertise and becoming a fixture on network television. Being a talking head on the national news after decades spent in gritty crime labs wasn’t necessarily an obvious trajectory, but it helped that Baden was comfortable in the limelight.

“Michael never saw a camera he didn’t like,” Lowell Levine, who served alongside Baden as co-director of pathology for the New York State Police, told NBC News in 2014. “He used to yell at me about the press: ‘They’re just trying to make a living — why don’t you help them?’”

I've been suspicious about both Baden and Cyril Wecht, especially their post-retirement work. But that isn't to say he's wrong about Epstein.

[dewsgirl]

21. Back in the 90's I loved his Autopsy show on HBO.

[LittleGirl]

9. I knew it

and hope they find it is true. I hope someone confesses.

[Wednesdays]

78. Yeah, just like the confession to the JFK assassination

[Bayard]

11. Well...... duh.

[Duppers]

50. Hey, ya beat me to it.

My first thought & was gonna post.

👍

[Miguelito Loveless]

12. No one is going to investigate this

because too many powerful people would be implicated.

[braddy]

16. This is one of the most media perfect stories in history, yet during all these years it has been

exposed and with celebrity names, politicians, the international rich, royalty, females of beauty, sex, etc, etc, it can't get legs, it seems to be yet another story that the media is locking down.

[magicarpet]

13. Nor do dead men sing.... or dance....

... to the tune of truth ever again.

[OKNancy]

14. I don't trust what Baden says

he's always chasing celebrity. He did NOT do the autopsy, he just observed.

[DENVERPOPS]

60. But he

But he loooooves being in the spotlight..........

[The_Counsel]

15. Okay, So Who Among Us DIDN'T Think Epstein was Eliminated to Protect the Guilty?

That's the first thing I thought about when the new broke that he'd died.

I hate being so cynical, but that's the world we live in...

[jberryhill]

28. That would be kind of stupid

Are all of the girls, now women, who were involved in the scheme now dead?

Several of them submitted victim impact statements in the Epstein proceeding itself.

There was practically no mention of their testimony on DU whatsoever, since none of them support the idea of a vast-reaching pedophile ring.

One Epstein victim, Virginia Giuffre, alleges that she was molested by several other Epstein associates, and her allegations are markedly different from every other Epstein victim in that regard.

She is notably not murdered, nor are any of the other Epstein victims.

Furthermore, given that the other Epstein victims were perfectly willing to identify themselves and testify in the proceeding, then are you suggesting they are lying and/or concealing the truth?

[The_Counsel]

37. Not Really...

Far as I can tell, the criminal charges against Epstein pretty much died when he did.

Did someone sue his estate and it somehow wasn't reported?

That's what I mean. Get rid of Epstein and that takes the heat off of others that may have been involved. They can still be prosecuted, sure, but it's now a little more problematic...

[jberryhill]

39. What prevents the victims from simply identifying all of these people?

Gloria Allred claimed that she was going to be go after the estate on behalf of her clients/PR vehicles, but nothing's been heard from her and she no longer represents some of them.

But if some other person, Person X, molested any of the other victims, then there is nothing which prevents Epstein's victims - who have had no problem describing their experience - from speaking out about it. Also, those activities by Person X and all other persons similar to Person X (since we are talking about a vast number of powerful people for reasons which aren't clear) wouldn't have anything to do with Epstein's estate anyway.

The entire premise is based on the assumption that because Epstein had a large number of wealthy and influential associates, that they must all somehow have been on a roster of persons to whom Epstein provided teen girls. None of the now-women involved, other than Giuffre, have made any such claim.

Killing Epstein does not somehow silence a bunch of other people and, as noted already, those other victims have not been silent.

The federal charges in question at the trial did not involve Epstein shopping them around either, but solely related to Epstein using his direct employees and some of the victims to recruit other victims. Those allegations were the basis of the trafficking charges.

So, how on earth is it "more problematic" to go after other men who were having sex with these victims with Epstein dead? I can't see how Epstein being alive or dead changes the fact that these other men are still alive and so are the victims. What is Epstein needed for? It's not as if he was going to take the stand in his own trial. Charging someone with a crime is the one way, in fact, to get them NOT to talk about it.

[oldsoftie]

44. The story goes that he had "proof" on all involved. The girls stories are just that; stories.

They are all most likely to be true, yes, but with only an accusation it wouldnt carry as much weight against the rich & powerful. Unless, like with Stormy, there may be "distinguishing characteristics" they know of? THAT would be a huge piece of evidence.
But a man like Epstein with documents or videos or photos would be much more damaging than an accusation. And i wouldnt doubt that he had cameras everywhere.
So what was seized in the searches? Will we ever know?

The Right says he was killed to protect Clinton. The Left says he was killed to protect Trump. And here we are; no video of the area he was kept in. So instant conspiracy for ALL sides!

[jberryhill]

52. But there aren't even "stories"

With the exception of Giuffre, none of the victims testified to anything like what is being presumed to be true.

[oldsoftie]

58. What about Jane Does 1-x? 23 of them were in court just a few months ago.

[jberryhill]

59. Yes, did you listen to what they had to say?

Obviously, you are aware they were in court, but you didn't bother to hear what they had to say.

There is something sad about that.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/jeffrey-epstein-women-victims-testify-court-quotes

23 Women Stood In Court And Said Jeffrey Epstein Abused Them. Here Are Their Most Powerful Quotes.

One by one, with many in tears, the women described how Epstein manipulated, coerced, threatened, and sexually abused them when they were just teens.

If you care about the victims, go read their words. Go read what they had to say.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jeffrey-epstein-accuser-names-four-women-his-web-enablers-n1063801?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma


Jeffrey Epstein accuser names four women in his web of enablers

Jennifer Araoz, who first told her story to NBC News in July, accused four people by name of helping facilitate Epstein’s abuse of her starting when she was 14 years old.

The four include Ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s longtime companion; Rosalyn Fontanilla, a former housekeeper who died in 2016; Lesley Groff, who worked as his secretary, and Cimberly Espinosa, a former executive assistant to Epstein, according to the court papers obtained by NBC News.


It is shameful that people are more interested with unsupported CT's than in the actual words of the actual victims:

https://jezebel.com/the-real-jeffrey-epstein-scandal-has-unfolded-in-front-1837171412

And just when it seemed that Epstein was actually going to be held accountable for those many, well documented offenses, yet again, he’s escaped. Epstein’s apparent suicide this week—and the conspiracy theories and bad media coverage around it—obscures the real scandal as it was just beginning to emerge. At some point, perhaps, if we’re very lucky, the overheated speculation around Epstein’s death may turn to introspection. It might be worth asking ourselves, for instance, why the public is so much more engaged by Epstein’s bizarre jailhouse death than in listening to his living victims, or questioning the many shameless hucksters who have tried to use their pain for their own political and financial ends. In part, that’s because Epstein’s case has been inextricably linked with conspiracy for such a long time, making it near impossible for the lived experience of his victims to ever be fully heard over the din.

[oldsoftie]

69. Of course I heard what they had to say. Your posts made it seem as though YOU didnt.

You're obviously confused. Probably everyone here has heard their stories. And plenty of people EVERYWHERE were pushing for more to be done to Epstein. Which is why he was back in jail. The way your posts were worded it seems like you only thought that ONE woman was going into detail about how she was abused.

[jberryhill]

71. No, what my posts say

Is that only Giuffre alleges to have been passed around to other men, and her allegations are very unlike those of any of the other victims in that regard.

This is what I said:

"With the exception of Giuffre, none of the victims testified to anything like what is being presumed to be true."

If you are aware of any of the Epstein victims who claim that there is this ring of powerful people to whom they were passed around, then it seems to have been lost in the shuffle, because they haven't made any such claims.

[Ford_Prefect]

41. Civil suits against his estate are not off the table. Suicide vs Homicide complicates that equation.

You may recall how much more information became public in the lawsuit against O.J. Simpson.

[oldsoftie]

45. I think some lawsuits against the estate have already been filed?

[jberryhill]

73. No, that's just the Gloria Allred noise machine

At least one of the Epstein victims have already fired her after catching on to the fact that Allred is not going to follow through on her various expansive threats and promises:

https://nypost.com/2019/09/26/gloria-allred-no-longer-representing-jeffrey-epstein-accuser/

Not that they needed her for anything anyway, since they were simply providing victim impact statements in court and weren't there as parties.

Summer Zervos has dumped her for similar reasons:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/381000-gloria-allred-withdraws-from-summer-zervos-case-against-trump

[oldsoftie]

76. Oh lord. Whenever Gloria Allreds name pops up its an awful sign. She's awful.

[keithbvadu2]

18. Epstein's very existence threatened some very powerful people.

Epstein's very existence threatened some very powerful people.

[jberryhill]

66. Then why have him arrested, and a big media spotlight focused on him?

He was arrested by federal agents upon his return from Paris on a private plane.

Of the innumerable ways that it would have been possible to murder him without drawing a lot of attention to him first, why do you suppose that the DoJ indicted him, arrested him, and caused a huge media circus around him, in order to kill him in his jail cell, instead of simply having him succumb to "random street violence" outside of his Manhattan home?

Wouldn't it have been much simpler to kill him outside of the jail, than to involve all of the people in the jail in the conspiracy?

[jmbar2]

19. A new shiny object to distract from this week's fast-moving impeachment activities

The original suicide decision sounded sketchy, but... Enter a publicity-hound and we have a new distraction for Fux viewers before the real impeachment news ramps up. Sometimes dead men are very useful.

[PSPS]

20. More clickbait from The Hill and a distraction for "Fox & Friends" to air

"very unusual for suicide" doesn't mean it wasn't suicide. But the conspiracy theory buffs will have a field day with this silliness.

[ScratchCat]

30. Exactly

Give me "extensive defensive wounds" on Epstein's hands and body, and you've got something. Otherwise, this is nonsense meant to distract.

[Cousin Dupree]

22. Do tell. I say if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck.

His death is not a coincidence.

[mwooldri]

23. Cue the RWNJ conspiracy theorists...

They somehow believe that a married couple, whose lastt name begins with C and ends with "linton" arranged for Jeffrey Epstein's murder via the "Deep State".

While I will say bullshit to that cock and bull story the possibility of homicide versus suicide might exist. But where's the evidence? Whodunit? Whydunit? Howdunit?

[CaptYossarian]

26. All this while running a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor.

Now that's multitasking!

[keithbvadu2]

67. In a basement that does not exist

[Hoyt]

24. There were also plenty of signs of suicide. But, that's not what Baden was hired to say. n/t

[jberryhill]

42. Are you suggesting that Baden was wrong about OJ Simpson's innocence?

[oldsoftie]

47. Of course. Nobody believes OJ was innocent. Except those paid to think it!

[Botany]

25. The only question is who or whom did it?

Both guards fell asleep & both video cameras malfunctioned @ the same time ....

Was it Vinny & Tony from Staten Island or some of Vlad's crew or the Crown Prince's
"Bone Saw Boys?" And didn't Bill Barr just visit the prison where Epstein died @ about
a week before Jeff's death?

BTW Columbus' Les Wexner must have been very relieved with Mr. Epstein's death.

[bluestarone]

38. My thoughts here are

Who questioned the Guards? Who did an investigation? Sure went quiet AFTER the death. Just doesn't SMELL right, if you know what i mean. We just didn't hear much after the fact. HUSH HUSH.

[Botany]

51. Jeffery's death happened with in 24 hours after it came out that Trump was flying on his plane ...

... after he said that he had cut off all contact with him & when Jeff or somebody associated w/him
said that Epstein was using Trump's plane to move young women around N. America.

I bet both guards have moved on to new jobs and that their bank accounts are very healthy now.
BTW If I was guard at that facility and Frankie "2 Thumbs," came up to me and showed me a picture
of my house and family I might have to take 'em up on any offer because who could I go to the FBI?
Which is in the DoJ and that is under Bill Barr.

[Polybius]

57. His death was also the very next morning after being linked to Bill Richardson and George Mitchell

Perhaps it was bi-partisan. He had politicians on all sides, he didn't discriminate.

[stuffmatters]

65. Fred Koch was the most powerful & evil Repug in Epstein's black book.

Fred Koch was on the short list of names first mentioned as found in Epstein's black book. Magically the Koch name never came up again in the Epstein investigation. He certainly had the DOJ connex/control(all the way up to Barr) and lifetime demonstrating zero respect for any human life (except Kochs')) to qualify. And imagewise the Koch family had the most to loose. If we're going to name suspects, I'd consider the Repugs' uber puppetmaster too. Just saying.

[Eliot Rosewater]

27. Some of us said DAY ONE of this he was murdered because OF COURSE he was

The original person doing the autopsy didnt do anything wrong, they were just wrong.

That is all. Happens sometimes.

[jberryhill]

40. And some of us KNEW that OJ didn't do it

As did Michael Baden...

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-08-11-9508110074-story.html

[Eliot Rosewater]

48. Stop stalking me

[oldsoftie]

70. Anyone who thinks OJ is innocent has some serious problems.

Even those who initially supported him now know he's guilty after his words & actions after the case. Especially that ridiculous book he wrote, where he basically admits to doing it, knowing he cant be tried again

[jberryhill]

72. The thing with OJ...

Is that if I were on that jury I would likely have not voted to convict, because the prosecution did a craptastic job on that case. They tried to over-prove it, and some of what they did fell apart. There was enough room for reasonable doubt on that prosecution.

Factually, yeah, he obviously did it, and the provenance of the shoes which left those prints was demonstrated in the civil trial.

This pathologist is a hired gun. He was a witness for the OJ defense and for the Phil Spector defense. That doesn't make him dishonest, as some others suggest in this thread. However, what he and many other experts do is to simply emphasize some facts over others in order to generate doubt. He was not hired to be objective.

[oldsoftie]

75. Yes the DA certainly screwed the pooch on that case.

[Mendocino]

29. I guess

a shanking in the chow line would of been just a little too obvious.

[Captain Zero]

31. yeah, too obvious, this was the least obvious someone could get.

[TygrBright]

32. A highly credible source would make this interesting. n/t

[Funtatlaguy]

34. He knew too much. No way they'd chance him talking.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

35. I'd be surprised if they'd found no signs of homicide. n/t

[Guilded Lilly]

36. A surprise to no one.

[58Sunliner]

43. This is on Barr. Not surprised.

[duforsure]

46. If its exposed fully he was murdered

Trump will claim Hillary or Biden was involved and have Barr trump up more BS claims to use against her or him. This is his pattern, and putins too getting rid of someone with damming info against them and many others. Barr is deeply involved with this , and when exposed he'll be next if they think he'll talk. His dad may have been very involved with Epstein's underage girls and why his father had to hire him. Maybe why he was installed as the AG. They has stuff on him.

[LiberalLovinLug]

63. Accusing the Democrats of the crimes you are commiting works well for Republicans

Or they wouldn't keep doing it. An offshoot of the Big Lie theory. At the very least it muddies the waters and helps foment the "both parties are equally bad" meme.

[stopdiggin]

49. que the conspiracy theory vault

they'll be dragging this one out, every 5-10 years, until the grandkids are fixin' to retire.

[Opel_Justwax]

54. Michael Baden will say whatever you want if you pay him enough.

That is how expert testimony works these days.

[jberryhill]

68. He testified that OJ didn't do it, and neither did Phil Spector

Apparently, Lana Clarkson happened to commit suicide in Phil Spector's foyer with his gun that nobody knew he had.

[barbtries]

55. not a lot of respect for Baden,

but i am quite sure that Epstein was murdered. he was a huge problem for a lot of people.

[mrJJ]

56. Epstein took himself out ...A Nightmare 'Gulag'

Epstein took himself out.

He could not deal with the realities of his situation in NY MCC and his future life


Prisoners Endure A Nightmare 'Gulag' In Lower Manhattan, Hidden In Plain Sight

https://gothamist.com/news/prisoners-endure-a-nightmare-gulag-in-lower-manhattan-hidden-in-plain-sight

[Gothmog]

61. Who is surprised by this?

[Dave Starsky]

80. Encyclopedia Brown would have solved this perplexing mystery...

Without even putting down his peanut butter sandwich.

[pbmus]

64. Maxwell , Maxwell, Maxwell, Maxwell

[LisaL]

74. I totally believe Epstien was "suicided."

Guards sleeping, cameras not working, no cellmate in the cell-and hyoid bone broken in multiple places.

[YOHABLO]

77. Really makes no difference at this point. If ''homicide'' is true, how can it possibly be proven so?

No cameras, no witnesses ... guards asleep.

[Judi Lynn]

79. How is it possible the human sized people who insist Epstein killed himself never wondered

what was up with Epstein's "attempted suicide" from which the 4 time murderer, a former NY cop, Nicholas Taglione, this guy,



claimed he "saved" Epstein?

Apparently Epstein was found in a pile, unconscious, on the floor of the cell, which he was sharing with this monstrous critter.

Didn't it occur to any of them a colossal cat was playing with its food in there, and trying to make a point with the public that it's unwise to cross Trump?

Then he quickly is found dead when he is removed quickly from that cell, while everything that could be expected to work together to keep him safe suddenly all collapsed. How did that happen. Oh well, as they say, strange coincidences, after all.

To assure everyone it couldn't have been the four time murderer, Nicholas Taglione assured authorities they got along really well, they were the best of pals during their short stay together. That must have been why he felt he had to save his life. Sure, that's it.

[Kid Berwyn]

81. That first cellmate was a hulking cop charged with a quadruple murder.

Nicholas Tartaglione denied making the marks on Epstein’s neck when the presidents’ friend was found unresponsive in his cell the first time.

https://yonkerstimes.com/dirty-westchester-ex-cop-is-epsteins-cell-mate/

Like AG Bill Barr said, I was appalled.

But not as much as when I heard Bill Barr’s dad HIRED UNQUALIFIED EPSTEIN to teach at an exclusive prep school...

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/donald-barr/