Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

BumRushDaShow

(128,867 posts)
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 04:38 PM Aug 2019

Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy concludes his death was a suicide by hanging

Source: Washington Post




NEW YORK -- Jeffrey Epstein's prison death has been ruled a suicide by hanging, the medical examiner's office said Friday. Epstein, 66, was found dead in his cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in New York City on Aug. 10, touching off outrage and disbelief over how such a high-profile prisoner, known for socializing with powerful people including presidents Donald Trump and Bill Clinton, could have gone unwatched.

The Bureau of Prisons said Epstein had apparently killed himself, but that didn't squelch conspiracy theories about his death. Messages seeking comment were left for Epstein's lawyers. An office telephone number for Dr. Michael Baden, the pathologist hired by Epstein's representatives to observe the autopsy, rang unanswered.

Epstein, who was charged with sexually abusing numerous underage girls over several years, had been placed on suicide watch last month after he was found on his cell floor on July 23 with bruising on his neck. But multiple people familiar with operations at the jail say he was taken off the watch after about a week and put back in a high-security housing unit where he was less closely monitored, but still supposed to be checked on every 30 minutes.

Attorney General William Barr says officials have uncovered "serious irregularities" at the jail. The FBI and the Justice Department's inspector general are both investigating Epstein's death.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2-women-sue-epstein-estate-saying-he-abused-them-as-adults/2019/08/16/0850afae-c04d-11e9-a8b0-7ed8a0d5dc5d_story.html



Original headline: Medical examiner rules Epstein death a suicide by hanging
82 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy concludes his death was a suicide by hanging (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Aug 2019 OP
And JFK was killed by a lone shooter Runningdawg Aug 2019 #1
Congratulations on being the first to attack Dr. Barbara Sampson jberryhill Aug 2019 #10
What the hell dude are you related to her or something?? Runningdawg Aug 2019 #25
There used to be a rule at DU about attacking Democrats jberryhill Aug 2019 #26
Yes, a lot has changed on DU PSPS Aug 2019 #38
Well.... jberryhill Aug 2019 #39
Nice burn, sir! PJMcK Aug 2019 #55
I would rather not know the political affiliations of medical examiners. Steelrolled Aug 2019 #68
It's fun to pretend a mere opinion is a 'attack' LanternWaste Aug 2019 #82
Yes he was. MicaelS Aug 2019 #33
That's what CIA wanted America to believe. Kid Berwyn Aug 2019 #41
Do you think it is a matter of concern how many people believe the Pizzagate conspiracy? jberryhill Aug 2019 #56
What does that have to do with JFK's murder? Kid Berwyn Aug 2019 #58
I'm surprised you can say these two things in such rapid succession: jberryhill Aug 2019 #59
CIA invented term "conspiracy theorist" as code for "crazy person." Kid Berwyn Aug 2019 #60
Too convenient. Too easy. Too many "serious irregularities". The Wielding Truth Aug 2019 #2
So, do you believe that Mayor de Blasio, who appointed her the ME, is in on it? jberryhill Aug 2019 #5
What is that photo from? Mariska Hargitay consulting with Sampson and Biden? JudyM Aug 2019 #7
She was guiding them on a tour of her department jberryhill Aug 2019 #8
I noticed that, too. What is Olivia Benson doing there? n/t pnwmom Aug 2019 #30
They were all called together to solve the case of the shrunken polo shirt jberryhill Aug 2019 #34
Ha! I didn't even notice them until you mentioned it. treestar Aug 2019 #52
The case of the shrunken polo shirt jberryhill Aug 2019 #63
Quincy would have solved that case. Steelrolled Aug 2019 #65
! JudyM Aug 2019 #69
I'm accusing no one. I'm just saying it is just too darn clean. How was he supplied with his hanging The Wielding Truth Aug 2019 #62
How did the most common thing happen? jberryhill Aug 2019 #64
So, again, WTF did the 'reassigned' warden (presumably) take him off suicide watch? Ponietz Aug 2019 #3
It's not the medical examiners job to answer that question StarfishSaver Aug 2019 #12
Assisting suicide isn't a crime, then, in NY--is that your considered legal opinion? Ponietz Aug 2019 #13
You're making some rather baseless suppositions about what I am and am not willing to do StarfishSaver Aug 2019 #15
Cause of Death: Assisted Suicide Ponietz Aug 2019 #17
Well if he was planning on rolling on those he provided underage girls to and they murdered him to cstanleytech Aug 2019 #4
The medical examiner concluded that it was suicide, not murder. yardwork Aug 2019 #18
Even the best medical examiner's can be fooled though. cstanleytech Aug 2019 #37
I guess she was paid off. Another weekend of conspiracy theories. Hoyt Aug 2019 #6
. jberryhill Aug 2019 #9
Maybe it was an option he was given, and one he chose to take bucolic_frolic Aug 2019 #11
Well, he telegraphed his intent.... Chakaconcarne Aug 2019 #14
Yeah sure. As long as Barr is in charge I will never believe it was suicide kimbutgar Aug 2019 #16
Barr isn't in charge of the NY Medical Examiner's office. yardwork Aug 2019 #19
Barr doesn't control the NY ME's office. It's not a federal agency. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2019 #27
Assisted "suicide" n/t Devil Child Aug 2019 #20
My view Linda Ed Aug 2019 #21
The M.E. is a woman. Ptah Aug 2019 #22
You misunderstood Linda Ed Aug 2019 #48
I ask again: Did the NY M.E. falsify her report? Ptah Aug 2019 #49
Did she? Linda Ed Aug 2019 #66
The NY M.E. did not falsify her report. Ptah Aug 2019 #67
The ME is a woman. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2019 #28
How could it be 'sexism' when the poster thought it was a male? mr_lebowski Aug 2019 #31
The *assumption* that the chief ME was a man was sexist. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2019 #32
Seriously? ChubbyStar Aug 2019 #36
The findings were real. They were signed by Epstein's Mother underpants Aug 2019 #51
Washington Examiner is pretty biased towards the right Cadfael Aug 2019 #42
I doubt the M.E. would be willing to go for that. If however it was murder it is not entirely cstanleytech Aug 2019 #45
I will be interested in hearing how she came to that determination. Chemisse Aug 2019 #23
me too - lots of questions Locrian Aug 2019 #50
How does that even work? treestar Aug 2019 #53
That occurred to me too, the bit about the survival instinct. It's a very strong instinct. Jedi Guy Aug 2019 #61
A number of people seem upset ripcord Aug 2019 #24
Speculation was to be expected treestar Aug 2019 #54
Where "what he knew" is also largely a matter of speculation as well jberryhill Aug 2019 #57
The guards were asleep Turbineguy Aug 2019 #29
It was suicide. Wolf Frankula Aug 2019 #35
Tell us more about Epstein's "family" jberryhill Aug 2019 #40
When did Barr visit him? Jose Garcia Aug 2019 #43
My informant was apparently wrong. Wolf Frankula Aug 2019 #46
Oh hell we're not going to find out the truth one way or another. YOHABLO Aug 2019 #44
At the very least, the people monitoring him screwed up sakabatou Aug 2019 #47
Death by hanging. roamer65 Aug 2019 #70
What qualifications do you have to deny the NYC M.E. findings? Ptah Aug 2019 #71
Just how does one 'hang themselves' in a jail cell? JustFiveMoreMinutes Aug 2019 #72
I don't remember if it was in this thread or elsewhere BumRushDaShow Aug 2019 #73
And the singer from INXS hung himself from the doorknob I believe. nt EX500rider Aug 2019 #74
Another I just remembered and confirmed BumRushDaShow Aug 2019 #75
Like many, I go with the simple explanation... VarryOn Aug 2019 #76
These comments are absolutely nuts tymorial Aug 2019 #77
"the practice of reactionary outrage without actual evidence" jberryhill Aug 2019 #78
Nobody accused the ME at all treestar Aug 2019 #81
They didn't have to do an autopsy to come to that conclusion. gtar100 Aug 2019 #79
How can they rule it was a hanging death by suicide? I mean, amywalk Aug 2019 #80
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
26. There used to be a rule at DU about attacking Democrats
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 06:43 PM
Aug 2019

She is one of the highest appointed officials in a Democratic administration.

I know that DU has changed a bit, but that used to be the rule here.

PSPS

(13,591 posts)
38. Yes, a lot has changed on DU
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 08:25 PM
Aug 2019

For example, it wasn't until Epstein killed himself that I discovered that DU is actually awash with medical experts, especially forensic ones. And, to top that off, they can perform medical examinations without seeing the person! It's true! I thought such things were possible only with the likes of Terri Schiavo but, here we are!

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
39. Well....
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 08:26 PM
Aug 2019

We lost a lot of our experts in aviation and structural engineering, so someone had to take up the slack.
 

Steelrolled

(2,022 posts)
68. I would rather not know the political affiliations of medical examiners.
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 01:39 PM
Aug 2019

Same goes for dog catchers.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
33. Yes he was.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 07:29 PM
Aug 2019

Robert Oswald believed Lee did it until the day he died.

I used to be a huge conspiracy buff, read lots of books on the subject. I was also a gun nut. Still have lots of knowledge.

The very first time I visited the Sixth Floor Museum. I stood next to the window Oswald fired from.

The first thing that came into my mind was "Shit, Oswald did it. It was an incredibly easy shot. I am surprised he did not kill him with the first shot."

I realized all the conspiracy bullshit was just that.

Yes, LHO really did it with that POS Carcano.

And I am 62 years old. Watched the funeral on TV.

The most amazing thing to me after all these years is just how truly small Dealey Plaza is in reality. It looks so enormous on TV and in still photographs.

Kid Berwyn

(14,876 posts)
41. That's what CIA wanted America to believe.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 08:38 PM
Aug 2019

They even contacted their “assets” in the media and academia to echo that line, labeling those who didn’t “conspiracy theorist.”

Here’s the memo:



CIA Document 1035-960
Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report
CIA Document #1035-960

RE: Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report

1. Our Concern. From the day of President Kennedy's assassination on, there has been speculation about the responsibility for his murder. Although this was stemmed for a time by the Warren Commission report, (which appeared at the end of September 1964), various writers have now had time to scan the Commission's published report and documents for new pretexts for questioning, and there has been a new wave of books and articles criticizing the Commission's findings. In most cases the critics have speculated as to the existence of some kind of conspiracy, and often they have implied that the Commission itself was involved. Presumably as a result of the increasing challenge to the Warren Commission's report, a public opinion poll recently indicated that 46% of the American public did not think that Oswald acted alone, while more than half of those polled thought that the Commission had left some questions unresolved. Doubtless polls abroad would show similar, or possibly more adverse results.

2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization. The members of the Warren Commission were naturally chosen for their integrity, experience and prominence. They represented both major parties, and they and their staff were deliberately drawn from all sections of the country. Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society. Moreover, there seems to be an increasing tendency to hint that President Johnson himself, as the one person who might be said to have benefited, was in some way responsible for the assassination.

Innuendo of such seriousness affects not only the individual concerned, but also the whole reputation of the American government. Our organization itself is directly involved: among other facts, we contributed information to the investigation. Conspiracy theories have frequently thrown suspicion on our organization, for example by falsely alleging that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for us. The aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.

3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active (business) addresses are requested:

a. To discuss the publicity problem with (?) and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.

b. To employ propaganda assets to (negate) and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (I) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein's theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher (?) article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane's book is much less convincing that Epstein's and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)

4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:

a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider. The assassination is sometimes compared (e.g., by Joachim Joesten and Bertrand Russell) with the Dreyfus case; however, unlike that case, the attack on the Warren Commission have produced no new evidence, no new culprits have been convincingly identified, and there is no agreement among the critics. (A better parallel, though an imperfect one, might be with the Reichstag fire of 1933, which some competent historians (Fritz Tobias, AJ.P. Taylor, D.C. Watt) now believe was set by Vander Lubbe on his own initiative, without acting for either Nazis or Communists; the Nazis tried to pin the blame on the Communists, but the latter have been more successful in convincing the world that the Nazis were to blame.)

b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent--and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) and less on ballistics, autopsy, and photographic evidence. A close examination of the Commission's records will usually show that the conflicting eyewitness accounts are quoted out of context, or were discarded by the Commission for good and sufficient reason.

c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc. Note that Robert Kennedy, Attorney General at the time and John F. Kennedy's brother, would be the last man to overlook or conceal any conspiracy. And as one reviewer pointed out, Congressman Gerald R. Ford would hardly have held his tongue for the sake of the Democratic administration, and Senator Russell would have had every political interest in exposing any misdeeds on the part of Chief Justice Warren. A conspirator moreover would hardly choose a location for a shooting where so much depended on conditions beyond his control: the route, the speed of the cars, the moving target, the risk that the assassin would be discovered. A group of wealthy conspirators could have arranged much more secure conditions.

d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other. Actually, the make-up of the Commission and its staff was an excellent safeguard against over-commitment to any one theory, or against the illicit transformation of probabilities into certainties.

e. Oswald would not have been any sensible person's choice for a co-conspirator. He was a "loner," mixed up, of questionable reliability and an unknown quantity to any professional intelligence service.

f. As to charges that the Commission's report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.

g. Such vague accusations as that "more than ten people have died mysteriously" can always be explained in some natural way e.g.: the individuals concerned have for the most part died of natural causes; the Commission staff questioned 418 witnesses (the FBI interviewed far more people, conduction 25,000 interviews and re interviews), and in such a large group, a certain number of deaths are to be expected. (When Penn Jones, one of the originators of the "ten mysterious deaths" line, appeared on television, it emerged that two of the deaths on his list were from heart attacks, one from cancer, one was from a head-on collision on a bridge, and one occurred when a driver drifted into a bridge abutment.)

5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission's Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.

Source: http://www.jfklancer.com/CIA.html



That’s to keep people from knowing that the facts show the case of President Kennedy’s murder is open.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
56. Do you think it is a matter of concern how many people believe the Pizzagate conspiracy?
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 11:10 AM
Aug 2019

Do you believe that Russia was engaged in a full-on operation to spread fake news, rumors and conspiracy theories during the 2016 election?

Can you explain why foreign adversaries would be interested in spreading fake news, rumors and conspiracy theories?

Kid Berwyn

(14,876 posts)
58. What does that have to do with JFK's murder?
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 11:24 AM
Aug 2019

Cojoining crazy talk with the serious is a sign of disinformation. That, in part, was why Trumputin’s smears of Hillary Clinton were so effective in repressing the urban vote.

In the verbatim CIA memo above, the agency spelled out their interest in shutting down talk that a conspiracy was behind JFK’s assassination. Why would that be? Many reasons, including the CIA’s association with the Mafia to kill Castro - an operation that continued after JFK ordered it stopped.

BTW: That CIA disinformation campaign noted in the memo in itself was illegal, as CIA by law was not entitled to conduct operations domestically, specifically targeting the American people.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
59. I'm surprised you can say these two things in such rapid succession:
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 11:26 AM
Aug 2019
"Cojoining crazy talk with the serious is a sign of disinformation."

...

"In the verbatim CIA memo above, the agency spelled out their interest in shutting down talk that a conspiracy was behind JFK’s assassination. Why would that be?"

For the answer to the highlighted question, see your first sentence.

Any number of government agencies have a legitimate interest in understanding the origins and spread of disinformation campaigns.

Kid Berwyn

(14,876 posts)
60. CIA invented term "conspiracy theorist" as code for "crazy person."
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 11:39 AM
Aug 2019

Worked well to shut down discussion of the conspiracy behind JFK’s assassination ever since.

Fortunately, it has not worked perfectly.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
5. So, do you believe that Mayor de Blasio, who appointed her the ME, is in on it?
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 04:51 PM
Aug 2019

Dr. Sampson, whom you are accusing, is the woman in the far right of this picture





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Sampson

The Wielding Truth

(11,415 posts)
62. I'm accusing no one. I'm just saying it is just too darn clean. How was he supplied with his hanging
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 12:19 PM
Aug 2019

supplies and how did he get the opportunity and why wasn't there video of his cell 24/7? Why was he able to get off suicide watch?
Who made those decisions and why?

Even if he saw this as his only way out it doesn't seem logical that he wouldn't use his cultured swarmyness to bribe those in charge or use his connections again buy time until he could move to better quarters.

He was so slimy that even someone non political could have set up a hanging with an unsupervised contained pedophile.

Seems too perfect for those implicated to swim along without the hook attached.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
64. How did the most common thing happen?
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 12:51 PM
Aug 2019

https://www.sbs.com.au/guide/article/2017/12/06/10-staggering-statistics-about-us-prison-system

12 people die each day in a US prison

According to the justice department, approximately a dozen inmates die behind bars each day, or roughly 4,400 per year. In state and federal prisons, most deaths are health-related – the leading illnesses being cancer or heart disease. In local prisons, the top cause is suicide, making up a third of all deaths and usually occurring within the first month of incarceration. Tragically, more than 70 percent of those suicides eventuate before conviction.


Ponietz

(2,961 posts)
3. So, again, WTF did the 'reassigned' warden (presumably) take him off suicide watch?
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 04:45 PM
Aug 2019

And provide the means for him to kill himself—after bail was denied, after a previous suicide attempt, without a court order or, even, a written motion from his attorneys? It wasn’t a shift worker who gave that order.

Ponietz

(2,961 posts)
13. Assisting suicide isn't a crime, then, in NY--is that your considered legal opinion?
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 05:17 PM
Aug 2019

Even if it isn’t, what puzzles me is your unwillingness to ask the same question.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
15. You're making some rather baseless suppositions about what I am and am not willing to do
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 05:34 PM
Aug 2019

The medical examiner doesn't determine whether assisting suicide is a crime. They simply determine the cause of death.

cstanleytech

(26,284 posts)
4. Well if he was planning on rolling on those he provided underage girls to and they murdered him to
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 04:49 PM
Aug 2019

keep him silent then it could be looked at as suicide especially if they are powerful and well connected.

yardwork

(61,595 posts)
18. The medical examiner concluded that it was suicide, not murder.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 05:50 PM
Aug 2019

The medical examiner has very good credentials and she examined the body.

cstanleytech

(26,284 posts)
37. Even the best medical examiner's can be fooled though.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 07:50 PM
Aug 2019

Mind you I'm not saying that's what happened here but it's still a possibility.

bucolic_frolic

(43,133 posts)
11. Maybe it was an option he was given, and one he chose to take
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 05:11 PM
Aug 2019

Or maybe an opportunity that was offered. Who knows.

Let suspicions be informed by facts and incongruities. Paranoia and doubt are not evidence.

Alex Jones and Newtown are not investigatory methods.

Chakaconcarne

(2,446 posts)
14. Well, he telegraphed his intent....
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 05:28 PM
Aug 2019

Why they removed the suicide watch is the bigger question IMO.

With that intent, no one had to do anything but just make sure he was left to his own devices.....

kimbutgar

(21,130 posts)
16. Yeah sure. As long as Barr is in charge I will never believe it was suicide
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 05:42 PM
Aug 2019

It is a coverup meant to silence someone who could expose fat donnie as a pedofilie

Linda Ed

(493 posts)
21. My view
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 06:27 PM
Aug 2019

My view: If he knew what was good for him, he had to rule it was a ‘suicide’. Who's surprised? Let's check the video. Oops. Let's ask the guards. Oops. We already heard Barr give us the “summary” of his “suicide” the day of his death! Apparently, Barr knows more than the medical examiner and Mueller.

How do you break bones in your neck when there is nowhere in a cell in a secure housing unit to hang high enough to break bones? From kneeling with a sheet around your neck... right.

Autopsy points to possibility Epstein was strangled:
Jeffrey Epstein’s former bodyguard floated his theory that his old boss probably had help with committing suicide while in federal custody, but was reluctant to talk at length.

"Somebody helped him to do that," former UFC fighter Igor Zinoviev, who was also Epstein’s driver and trainer, told New York Magazine. When pressed why he believed Epstein had help, Zinoviev said, "Listen, you know, that’s going a little too deep."
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/epsteins-bodyguard-believes-he-had-help-in-killing-himself

Ptah

(33,024 posts)
22. The M.E. is a woman.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 06:30 PM
Aug 2019

You typed: "My view: If he knew what was good for him, he had to rule it was a ‘suicide’. "

Did the NY M.E. falsify her report?

Linda Ed

(493 posts)
66. Did she?
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 01:26 PM
Aug 2019

Do you know the answer to that?

Jeffrey Epstein’s lawyers sound the alarm..Whether you’re accepting this autopsy report as fact or not, suffice it to say that Epstein’s camp is doing no such thing. Epstein’s lawyers have announced that they’ll conduct their own investigation into how Epstein died. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, considering that they’ve already hired a forensic investigator best known for his role in the OJ trial.

Old saying is,,two heads are better than one...

cstanleytech

(26,284 posts)
45. I doubt the M.E. would be willing to go for that. If however it was murder it is not entirely
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 11:44 PM
Aug 2019

out of the realm of possibility that it was staged well enough to hide it from the M.E. as the M.E. can only base their conclusion on the cause of death on the evidence at hand.

Chemisse

(30,809 posts)
23. I will be interested in hearing how she came to that determination.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 06:32 PM
Aug 2019

I hope they release a lot of details.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
50. me too - lots of questions
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 08:41 AM
Aug 2019
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/08/15/mystery-surrounds-hyoid-break-epstein-death-suicide-murder/2017579001/



"Fractures of the hyoid bone in suicide hangings are rare and when you further keep in mind this was not a suicide hanging from stepping off a high ladder," said Wecht.

According to reports, Epstein had tied a bed-sheet to the bunk and kneeled on the ground and then leaned forward to kill himself.

That maneuver, Wecht said, is not conducive to breaking bones.

"In majority of those you don't see fractures because there is no great amount of force," said Wecht. "It's basic physics."

treestar

(82,383 posts)
53. How does that even work?
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 09:08 AM
Aug 2019

Why would leaning forward produce enough force to kill the person? Morbidly, I need a diagram or something. Seems like the body's will to live would make you get up.

Jedi Guy

(3,185 posts)
61. That occurred to me too, the bit about the survival instinct. It's a very strong instinct.
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 11:43 AM
Aug 2019

Last edited Sat Aug 17, 2019, 07:05 PM - Edit history (1)

But on the flip side, David Carridine accidentally killed himself via auto-erotic asphyxiation. As I recall, he was found hanging from a doorknob in his suite. That being the case, it seems like all he really had to do was get his feet under himself and lift himself up enough to remove the tension from the noose so he could take it off.

I don't think Epstein was murdered, but there are definitely some questions that need to be answered. In particular, why did the prison psych personnel acquiesce to taking him off suicide watch so quickly? I realize Epstein's attorneys requested it, but the prison was under no obligation to do as they asked, and could have pushed back if they had doubts about Epstein's stability.

The other questions revolve around why Epstein had no cellmate, and what was up with the guards being so lax in keeping an eye on him. He wasn't on suicide watch any longer, 'tis true, but given that he'd made an attempt recently (and the high profile nature of Epstein himself), if I were calling the shots there, I'd have made damn sure they were watching him more closely.

ripcord

(5,346 posts)
24. A number of people seem upset
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 06:36 PM
Aug 2019

It must be a horrible thing when the facts don't fit your preconceived theories.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
57. Where "what he knew" is also largely a matter of speculation as well
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 11:24 AM
Aug 2019

Historically, everyone has "known" that "Jews are poisoning the wells", "Gypsies are kidnapping the children", "Satan worshippers are engaged in ritual abuse of children", etc.. There is always a secret dark cabal organized for the purpose of doing something wicked. It is a common mass psychological phenomenon that has made its way into movies like the Omen, Rosemary's Baby, etc.. We saw it with the McMartin preschool case, the "Satanic panic" of the 1980's, the "Franklin Savings and Loan Scandal" (once also popular at DU before the admins started tombstoning people over it), and now it is the Epstein thing.

Epstein was indicted for a very consistent pattern of behavior stretching back over a number of years, in which he and a network of close female associates would recruit girls for his "massages" and, in turn, engage some of those girls to recruit others. There is nothing in his indictment in NY or the previous one in Florida which involved him acting as a pimp to shop these girls around to other men.

Precisely one of the dozens of living, identifiable victims claims that she was shopped around to Prince Andrew, George Mitchell, Dershowitz and one or two other people whose names escape me at the moment. Those allegations remain unproven. Additionally, there is the "Katie Johnson" story which originated with a Jerry Springer producer and a Ted Cruz supporter during the 2016 GOP primaries and took on a life of its own.

Other than Giuffre and the almost surely fictional "Katie Johnson", the assertion that Epstein was providing these girls to other people is fueled by nothing other than the fact that as a wealthy and influential person, Epstein had a lot of associations with other wealthy and influential people. That is why both left and right can be dead certain that there was a wide ranging pedophilia ring - with the only difference being the roster of who might be involved.

Certainly what the victims collectively know is equal to what Epstein knew. And yet, with the exception of Giuffre, they are all going after Epstein's estate to the exclusion of any other defendants.

Could you, or anyone, explain why none of the Epstein victims aside from Giuffre are suing the other members of this supposed ring? Are the victims lawyers - including Gloria Allred - simply too stupid to sue all of the actual defendants?

Wolf Frankula

(3,600 posts)
35. It was suicide.
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 07:34 PM
Aug 2019

Barr visited him. I'm sure he was told, "You don't have to worry about your family and friends if you 'do the right thing.' Nobody will hurt them, they'll be taken care of if you take care of your problem."

Wolf

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
40. Tell us more about Epstein's "family"
Fri Aug 16, 2019, 08:32 PM
Aug 2019

or, for that matter, his "friends".

I realize you may not know a whole lot about Epstein, but "family and friends" were probably the only two things he did not have in abundance.

Wolf Frankula

(3,600 posts)
46. My informant was apparently wrong.
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 12:15 AM
Aug 2019

She said it was about two weeks. Teresa has another reason. Epstein was looking at closely (at his age) life in prison. He would have to be kept is solitaire to keep him alive. I presume you know the usual fate of child molesters among the genpop in prison. He couldn't bear that. He killed himself.

Wolf

JustFiveMoreMinutes

(2,133 posts)
72. Just how does one 'hang themselves' in a jail cell?
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 04:26 PM
Aug 2019

Perhaps I have 'jail cells' pictured incorrectly in my mind... so enlighten my ignorance please (and if you're just going to say 'Google It'.. please move on....

BumRushDaShow

(128,867 posts)
73. I don't remember if it was in this thread or elsewhere
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 04:56 PM
Aug 2019

but if there is some kind of shower head in the cell, then voila. Alternately if the bed/cot is not bolted to the floor, then simply standing it upright at a narrow angle against a wall (enough so it doesn't tip over and or wedging it upright with a table/chair or whatever may have been in the room) and then tying whatever at the top and sliding down the bed to the floor.

I hate to say but I recall all the press attention surrounding what happened with David Carradine and his death by asphyxiation where it was reported that he was found hanging from a hanger rack affixed near the top of a hotel room's closet door (and some stories including published photos ).

 

VarryOn

(2,343 posts)
76. Like many, I go with the simple explanation...
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 08:21 PM
Aug 2019

He hanged himself. I don’t doubt a lot of people wanted his ass dead. The most conspiratorial scheme that I could be persuaded to accept is guards were bribed to look the other way knowing he’d commit suicide.

I hope every sorry soul that facilitated or participated in using all those girls gets gets just desserts

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
77. These comments are absolutely nuts
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 08:24 PM
Aug 2019

What is the difference between accusing the medical examiner as being part of a right wing conspiracy and all of the preposterous qanon and pizzagate nonsense from the right? Let me answer that question. Absolutely nothing. Both are created from Conspiracy Theory without any evidence. Both fit within a nice little neat narrative. Both are promoted as a means to obtain political leverage.

Now I recognize that accusations of both siderism is quickly and routinely shut down here DU. Please pay attention because I do not care

Drawing conclusions without evidence and based entirely upon supposition is quite common and has very little to do with politics. I recognize that Epstein's death extremely convenient many many questions. That doesnt mean everyone is in on it. That doesnt mean the medical examiner is a MAGA plant.

Until we have more information I suggest that everyone takes a f****** chill pill and wait for more information to follow. It's entirely possible that Epstein did kill himself but circumstances were engineered to allow this to happen. The medical examiner's job is not to look for conspiracy. It's also possible that Epstein was able to take advantage of a lack of supervision and killed himself. Again we need more information.

The conspiracy theory is tiresome. Move on unless you have evidence or perhaps find an alternative venue which shares the practice of reactionary outrage without actual evidence.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
78. "the practice of reactionary outrage without actual evidence"
Sat Aug 17, 2019, 08:55 PM
Aug 2019

As if someone simply wanted people to be outraged.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
81. Nobody accused the ME at all
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 11:02 AM
Aug 2019

it is being implied merely if the person states that they still don't believe it is suicide.

The ME report could convince them, but it's not around. Or whatever happened could be beyond the ME's purview. It's a legal conclusion/medical conclusion.

amywalk

(254 posts)
80. How can they rule it was a hanging death by suicide? I mean,
Sun Aug 18, 2019, 02:46 AM
Aug 2019

they can rule it was a hanging, but how can they prove there was no one else in the cell to help precipitate the act of hanging, but especially in the death of a high profile inmate who could put away for life some very, very important people in our country?

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy...