Mexico says it will take legal action against US over El Paso shooting

[highplainsdem]

Source: The Hill

Mexican Secretary of Foreign Affairs Marcelo Ebrard on Sunday announced that his country will take legal action against the United States over Saturday's mass shooting at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas.

President Andrés Manuel López Obrador has instructed officials to make sure "the position from Mexico translates first as protecting the affected families and after in effective, swift, expeditious and forceful legal actions” to protect Mexicans in the U.S, Ebrard said in a video posted on Twitter.

“What happened was inadmissible and today at 4:30 PM we’ll reveal the first judicial actions the government of Mexico will take in accordance with international law.”

-snip-

Read more: https://thehill.com/latino/456121-mexico-says-it-will-take-legal-action-against-us-over-el-paso-shooting

[katmondoo]

1. I hope they can do something, but I have my doubts if it will mean anything

[RockRaven]

2. They should pass a Magnitsky style act and sanction Trump personally for inciting mass murder

as well as all of Trump's hangers-on.

[oasis]

3. +1

[RainCaster]

22. They have to include Moscow Mitch

He has been holding up all the bills that would have prevented this.

[SallyHemmings]

36. K & R

[X_Digger]

4. Uhh, that's the pot calling the kettle black.

The murder rate in Mexico is 3x that of the US. (15 per 100,000 vs 5 per 100,000)

[Demonaut]

5. so the point is moot?

[X_Digger]

6. No, just hypocritical. I thought that was obvious. n/t

[SCantiGOP]

17. Hypocritical my ass

At least they are trying to do something, unlike our government. A big part of their problem is our insatiable thirst for drugs which fuel the Marco-terrorists.

[X_Digger]

24. "Do something" about their own 5x homicide rate? Or are you referring to this action? n/t

[EarnestPutz]

76. I can't believe how quickly it went up from 3 times to 5 times our homicide rate. I know our rate...

is going up (after going down during the Obama administration) so theirs must be skyrocketing.

[marble falls]

25. Exactly right. Our market for Fentyl, Meth, coke creates the high murder rate. All their guns ...

come from the US, too.

[EX500rider]

35. Actually they don't.

That was a misrepresentation of the facts the news made.

"According to [U.S.] Justice Department figures, 94,000 weapons were recovered from Mexican drug cartels in the five years between 2006 and 2011, of which 64,000 -- 70 percent, according to Jim Moran -- come from the United States."[24] The percentages pertaining to the origin of weapons confiscated from organized crime and drug cartels may not be accurately reported. Said numbers represent only firearms Mexican authorities asked the US to trace (7,200 firearms) and that the ATF was able to trace (4,000 on file, of which 3,480 from US). US ATF Mexico City Office informed Mexican authorities ATF had eTrace data only on firearms made in or imported into the US and told them not to submit firearms that lacked US maker or US importer marks as required by US law. The guns submitted for tracing were only firearms that appeared to be US origin. The remaining guns were not submitted for tracing, or were not able to be traced. "In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico

[marble falls]

37. Actually they do ...

70% of guns seized from the drug cartels come from the US. Saturday night specials in Mexico come from Brazil.



We’re sending guns, crime to Mexico
Seized weapons
A cache of seized weapons displayed at a news conference in Phoenix.
(Matt York / Associated Press)
By Sarah Kinosian and Eugenio Weigend
March 2, 2017
4 AM

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kinosian-weigend-guns-mexico-20170302-story.html

<snip>

Although Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws in the world, Mexican criminal organizations have no trouble buying firearms, which they use to control territory, extort business owners, and threaten citizens as well as members of the security forces. The consequences are lethal. In 2002, there were more than 2,600 murder investigations involving firearms. By 2016, that number had increased to nearly 13,000.

Most of the weapons used by criminal groups in Mexico originate in the United States. Each year, an average of 253,000 firearms cross the border, the overwhelming majority of which come from the Southwest states of California, Texas and Arizona. From 2009 to 2014, more than 70% of firearms — nearly 74,000 — seized by Mexican authorities and then submitted for tracing by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms came from the United States. Many of these guns were semi-automatic rifles such as the AR-15 and AK-47, cartel favorites that Mexican citizens cannot buy legally.

To stock their arsenals, Mexican criminal organizations exploit lax U.S. gun laws, relying in part on straw purchases.

A “straw purchase” is when a person who is prohibited by federal law from buying firearms contracts a third party to buy them on their behalf. Because there is no limit on firearm transactions in many states, anyone who can pass a background check may buy multiple military-grade firearms in a single visit — which they can then pass along to criminals.

Sometimes firearms traffickers do not even have to lie to purchase a weapon. Although licensed U.S. firearms dealers must conduct background checks and maintain records, among other measures, unlicensed dealers at gun shows, flea markets and other private venues may sell guns without conducting a background check, inspecting a buyer’s identification or documenting the sale in any way.

The business of violence can be highly profitable, and the American gun industry is cashing in, with U.S. sellers and manufacturers arming both sides of Mexico’s conflict. Research from the University of San Diego has shown that half of U.S. gun dealers benefit financially from the U.S.-Mexico illegal gun trade, to the tune of $127.2 million in 2012.

Meanwhile, manufacturers also sell weapons and ammunition to Mexican security forces as they fight well-armed criminal organizations. Between 2015 and 2016, U.S.-based gun manufacturers signed nearly $276 million in commercial firearms deals with Mexico. Other U.S. defense companies signed agreements worth more than $560 million during that period in planes, helicopters and other equipment to outfit Mexico’s military and police.

The U.S. government knows there’s a problem. U.S. Homeland Security Secretary John F. Kelly and Mexican Interior Minister Miguel Angel Osorio Chong reportedly discussed the flow of guns across the border on Feb. 7. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson highlighted the issue as an area of cooperation between the two countries during his visit to Mexico last week. And Trump even signed an executive order in February claiming he would “strengthen enforcement of Federal law” related to illegal gun trafficking.

<snip>

Sarah Kinosian is a program officer covering arms trafficking, U.S. defense policy and citizen security at the Washington Office on Latin America. Eugenio Weigend is a senior policy analyst for the guns and crime policy team at the Center for American Progress.

[EX500rider]

39. You are missing the point..

70% of the guns they submitted to the BATF for tracing came from the US, not 70% of the weapons seized.

If the weapons obviously came from somewhere else they wouldn't be submitted to the US for tracing.

"In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States."

[cstanleytech]

43. So which country is their main source?

I mean surely there is a way to trace where the majority of the guns are coming from.

[Igel]

46. The US media don't care.

It's easier to put all the numbers there so that people's take-away is "70% ... from US."

You can find that number all over the place, cited--or, rather, hopelessly and cynically mis-cited--as "70% of the weapons seized from Mexican cartels came from the US."

I don't know whether it's worse to assume that the reporters are too innumerate to catch the difference, too indifferent to notice the difference, or too motivated to overlook the difference. In the first case, they don't understand; in the second, they don't notice; in the third, they don't want to notice.


The few things I've seen that indicate a country of origin suggest that the usual cheap arms suppliers are at fault. China, Russia, and off-market manufacturers in lesser monitored countries. Formerly places like Romania and Libya, probably some less reputable places in Africa or Asia these days, maybe South America. But they need an easy way to get them on ships unnoticed, and a country less than concerned with things like moral standards for people not in their own government.

[EX500rider]

56. Here:

"... most U.S. military grade weapons such as grenades and light anti-tank rockets are acquired by the cartels through the huge supply of arms left over from the wars in Central America and Asia. It has been reported that there have been 150,000 desertions from the Mexican army during 2003 to 2009. Stated another way, about one-eighth of the Mexican army deserts annually.[19] Many of these deserters take their government-issued automatic rifles with them while leaving. Some of those weapons originate from the USA.[20] It has been determined that at least some of the M203 grenade launchers and M16A2 assault rifles cited above are of counterfeit origin manufactured for the cartels, possibly to resemble the weapons carried by the Mexican Special Forces."

"A significant source of Mexican cartel weapons is legal sales by U.S. gun companies to the Mexican military and police, sales approved by the U.S. State Department which after they arrive in Mexico end up in cartel hands. In 2011 CBS News reported "The Mexican military recently reported nearly 9,000 police weapons "missing."" A 2009 U.S. State Department audit showed 26 percent of guns sold legally to governments in Mexico and Central America were diverted to the wrong hands."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_firearms_into_Mexico#Sources_of_weapons

[AtheistCrusader]

71. It's almost like you didn't even read the post you are responding to.

You repeated the same bad math.

"seized by Mexican authorities and then submitted for tracing by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms came from the United States."

Mexico only submits a small percentage of the guns they seize, for tracing to the United States BATFE, because the rest are clearly not from the United States.

Both the left and the right misinterpret and consequently wildly exaggerate these numbers in both directions.
https://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

[TheBlackAdder]

60. Submitting a Wiki article in college would get your paper thrown out by the professor.

.

In such a highly contested topic, I seriously question some of those resources on that Wiki page.

I'm not wasting my time disproving them, but some just seem a little bogus.

.

[Mike_DuBois]

70. Boy and how

I was new. Never knew Wikipedia wasn't a valid source. Had only just discovered it, thought it was the online equal to Encyclopedia Brittanica. Was I ever wrong. Professor took me to task and then some. Lesson learned.

[EX500rider]

72. I'll take Wikki and their footnotes over a opinion piece in the LA Times. nt

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

73. Some data

According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.

This means that the 87 percent figure relates to the number of weapons submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF that could be successfully traced and not from the total number of weapons seized by Mexican authorities or even from the total number of weapons submitted to the ATF for tracing. In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

[EX500rider]

74. Makes sense to me, the Cartels go for full auto, not available over the counter in the US.

And since they specialize in smuggling things all over the world, not that hard for them to bring in full-auto guns from anywhere on the planet.

[marble falls]

7. While there is a lot of murder in Mexico, there's never been a xase of of a Mexican gunman ...

shooting into a crowd of Americans and there are plenty of American filled rowns and tourist sites.

[billh58]

12. I suspect that the high murder

rate in Mexico is driven (at least in part) by drug cartels. They don't seem to have a lot of random mass-shootings by politically or racially motivated individuals.

[mucifer]

30. the cartels are the cause of so much immigration to the USA. Lots are fleeing for their lives

[maxrandb]

20. Screw these Donnie Shit for Brains "Talking Points"

As far as I know, the President of Mexico is NOT calling Americans "rapist and killers".

You better damn believe that if the head of the Mexican government and his allies in their government were formenting hatred, racism, and were dehumanizing Americans, and it led to the mass murder of Americans in Mexico, we'd fucking do something.

Your post, and the other above smearing Mexico can be found on freaker republic and from postings by Russian bots.

Take that bullshit somewhere else.

[Bradshaw3]

51. Thank you

A lot of the comments here are typical blaming the victim BS you get from the RW. Violence against Americans in Mexico is much less than what Mexicans themselves have to deal with, thanks in large part to American appetite for drugs and money and a government only half-interested in doing anything about it. And, like you said, they don't have their leader targeting Americans with his rhetoric.

[maxrandb]

65. All the State Department stats in the world don't change the fact

that what you are doing is using a strawman argument and demonstrating the worst kind of bothsiderism.

I'm not arguing that Mexico doesn't have a serious crime problem. That's pretty damn irrelevant to what the issue is.

Again, I point out that the President of Mexico is NOT holding clan rallies and telling his supporters that "Americans are an infestation". He's NOT telling his supporters that "Americans are rapist and killers".. He didn't claim that there's "good people" in the Mexican drug cartels.

If the Mexican president was dehumanizing Americans and encouraging the Mexican people to "stop the invasion/infestation" of Americans, we'd damn sure do something to protect our citizens.

What you're basically saying is that Mexico has no standing to be pissed about the hatred that Donnie Shit for Brains is stoking because, "there's bad people on both sides".

It's as if your posts came directly from Stephen Miller, or Donnie Dollhands.

[Jedi Guy]

69. That's a fair point and one I honestly hadn't considered.

My gut reaction was to think it's a little hypocritical of Mexico to take that stance given those stats. Think I'm gonna go back and self-delete those posts...

[Cha]

63. Mahalo, Max

[marble falls]

23. That's half the srory. How about some statistics on Mexicans killed in this country? And again ...

how many Mexican gunmen have fire into a crowd of Americans? How many Mexican gunmen vowed ro kill as many Americans as possible?

[Jedi Guy]

54. I haven't been able to find any stats for Mexican nationals murdered in the US per year.

Ultimately it's not really relevant. Mexico still doesn't have the moral high ground here.

[Doodley]

58. When you hear the Mexican leadership saying America is sending rapists and

murderers, when you hear them talk about an infestation of Americans, when they talk about banning an entire religion, let us know, because Mexico does not fester in a sewer of hate and race-based grievances like our president. There is no hypocrisy, because Mexico isn't inciting violence.

[X_Digger]

26. Right, they just happen to stumble upon mass graves with 100+, 200+, 300+ bodies.

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre

The 2011 San Fernando massacre, also known as the second massacre of San Fernando,[1] was the mass murder of 193 people by Los Zetas drug cartel at La Joya ranch in the municipality of San Fernando, Tamaulipas, Mexico in March 2011.[2] Authorities investigating the massacre reported numerous hijackings of passenger buses on Mexican Federal Highway 101 in San Fernando, and the kidnapped victims were later killed and buried in 47 clandestine mass graves.[2] The investigations began immediately after several suitcases and other baggage went unclaimed in Reynosa and Matamoros, Tamaulipas.[3] On 6 April 2011, Mexican authorities exhumed 59 corpses from eight mass graves.[4] By 7 June 2011, after a series of multiple excavations, a total of 193 bodies were exhumed from mass graves in San Fernando.

Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Durango_massacres

The 2011 Durango massacres were a series of mass murders that occurred in 2011.[1][2] According to El Universal and Yahoo! News, at least 340 bodies have been found in mass graves around the city of Durango as of February 2012;[3][4] These mass graves are the first of their kind in the state of Durango and third of their kind in Mexico. These mass graves had more bodies than the 2011 Tamaulipas massacre of 189 bus passengers.[5] Since April 2011, there have been 7 mass graves found around Durango. One of these mass graves was found in a vacant auto repair lot in Durango with 89 bodies.[6] One of the bodies identified was Alfonso Peña, the former mayor of Tepehuanes Municipality, Durango.[7]

[Bradshaw3]

52. So, Mexicans are just naturally bloodthirsty?

Or are all of those murders tied to Americans wanting illegal drugs? Your whole point here is one of blaming the victim, a typical RW ploy.

[X_Digger]

55. I know bullshit is incoming when I see, "So.."

Keep your fingers out of my mouth, thanks. I don't know where they've been. My words come out just fine. I don't need you trying to stuff others I didn't say in there.

My point was merely that it's hypocritical for Mexico to decry murder in the US when it's rate is five times that of the US.

This, class, is a classic straw man. Arguing against a position you wish the other person made (but didn't.)

[Bradshaw3]

59. Took your words at face value

Your "point" is bullshit because of the lack of understanding of the situation - which is that Mexico has long been a dumping ground for the U.S. and that your "perspective" is basically one of ignoring why that is so. Mexico's murder rate isn't something divorced from American events - it is directly related to our country's use of drugs and treating our neighbors to the south like some cheap whore we use and toss aside. Your ignorance of that doesn't excuse your victim blaming and certainly isn't a straw man - it gets to the heart of the relations between the two countries (not to mention the rest of Latin America).

[Igel]

47. But there have been fairly numerous cases of Americans being killed.

Note that Americans tend to group in specific areas in Mexico, and there's a lesser percentage than in the US. In other words, opportunity.

[EX500rider]

19. It's actually worse then that:

Their homicide rate is 5 times worse then the US.

Mexico 24.8 per 100,000 vs 5.3 for the US.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[cstanleytech]

44. Would I be far off on the mark at guessing that most of those are being done in areas that are

essentially main corridors for drugs being smuggled into the US?

[EX500rider]

57. I assume mostly cartel killings for sure. nt

[PatrickforO]

21. I'm not thinking that your point is relevant to this discussion.

Any time the US makes some statement or takes this kind of action in South or Central America or the Mid-East, or parts of Asia, we could as easily make the same kinds of points. For instance, we toppled the Allende government in Chile and replaced him with Pinochet. We were responsible for the dirty war in Argentina. We traded with Iran to get weapons for the Contras in Nicaragua. Our shock and awe campaign in 2002 killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.

And, as the other poster pushing back on you says, a big part of this is our ill-conceived war on drugs, which has basically made parts of Mexico subject to a sort of rule of terror from vicious drug cartels.

Actually, I'm happy to see Mexico taking this step. You know why? It might wake some people up. Because this is the kind of step the US used to take, but now, under the demonic and lawless evil that is Trump, we don't really have much of anything in terms of moral authority.

[marble falls]

27. Goody for you. I was responding to this:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2350028

[PatrickforO]

28. So was I. no text

[marble falls]

29. Ended up in my mail box. Go figure.

[cstanleytech]

45. Its not so much the war on drugs rather its our high demand for them making it lucrative for people

to try and smuggle them in.
Personally I think if we truly want to get a handle on this problem the best long term solution would be by finding a cure for addictions in general because if that was treatable then the market would dry up for things like drugs not to mention the other benefit of being able to cure addictions to thinks like gambling and liquor.

[Igel]

48. It's not like we installed remote controlls in hundreds of thousands of South Americans.

By "we toppled" is asserted "we assisted in the toppling". By "we are responsible for the dirty war" is asserted "we supported the government responsible for the dirty war."

Don't erase the local populations and deny them agency just because of their language or ethnicity.

We do the flip action when it comes to some countries. So the Sandinistas got a lot of help from abroad, but we overlook the assistance given to them in order to make it seem like a virtuous struggle against outside imperialism. It's a language game, a PR game worthy of ad executives from large corporations, and uses the same techniques. Except that the corporations are subject to more regulation and control--even in the '50s.

[paleotn]

32. You know....

our black market for illegal drugs and subsequent drug war are the driving factors behind that. We're just not a good neighbor.

[Perseus]

38. The murders in Mexico are from drug cartels and mafia

And we have those too in the USA.

The danger here is that this is White Supremacists, this could easily translate into a civil war, which is what republicans want.

[X_Digger]

40. Dead is dead. I doubt it matters to the dead which circumstance they fall prey to. n/t

[Igel]

50. Mexico does this.

It helps make sure that the Mexican citizens in the US, legal or otherwise, remain loyal, to some extent, to Mexico, and retain ties to their country.

It shows the domestic audience that Mexico stands up to the Big Bad Imperialist Wolf and can't be pushed around.

It shows the US Mexican audience that Mexico has its back, so
don't despair, stay in the US and don't run back home, scared, and so
keep those remittances flowing--$38 billion in 2018--and
when election time comes, be sure to vote for the party that has your back

It's a nice reflex. If you can't do something, then doing nothing very loudly gives the impression of doing something.


Yes, remittances to Mexico were $38 billion. Auto exports were 3 1/2 times higher, but remittances were the #2 import item in Mexico, and, well, let's face it, they were pretty much pure profit. (And that doesn't count money laundering, so with drug and people smuggling maybe remittances were #3.)

[friend of m and j]

62. I am a US citizen born and raised there but I have live in Mx for

the last 20+ years (cost of living is cheaper there). There have been over 250,000 drug related homicides in Mex. since the US intimidated, forced, and bribed (with the Merida Initiative) then President Calderon to declare war on drug cartels in 2006 with a strategy devised by the US. It was called the "kingpin strategy." It involved send military troops into the streets to fight the cartels and catch or kill the leaders of the cartels There were then about 5 or 6 cartels then operating in Mx. Over time the govt. did kill or capture the Kingpins. But the murder rate shot up during that time. But there was unintended consequences. There was a lot of infighting in the cartels over who would be the new leaders. murder rates shot up. the infighting caused all of the cartels split up during those fights and the number of cartels operating shot up drastically and they all fought for territory. murder rates shot up even more. Nearly everyone agrees that the US devised war on Drugs was a colossal failure.

Mexico elected a new President who to took office Dec. 1 last year. he beat the ruling parties that had ruled Mx. for the last 70 years creating a corrupt violent country. The people finally go tired of it and he won 31 of the 32 states in Mx. I could write a long essay about him and what he is doing to make a Mexico a better country but this platform is not the place to do that. I will shorten it to the last thing he said in his victory speech election night.

"promise that I will never lie to you, that I will never steal from you, and that I will never betray you".

Would that we had a President with principals like that.

[lunatica]

75. Those are mostly drug cartel crimes.

And those are cartel members killing members of other cartels.

[X_Digger]

78. Yeah, umm, not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_San_Fernando_massacre

The 2011 San Fernando massacre, also known as the second massacre of San Fernando,[1] was the mass murder of 193 people by Los Zetas drug cartel at La Joya ranch in the municipality of San Fernando, Tamaulipas, Mexico in March 2011.[2] Authorities investigating the massacre reported numerous hijackings of passenger buses on Mexican Federal Highway 101 in San Fernando, and the kidnapped victims were later killed and buried in 47 clandestine mass graves.[2] The investigations began immediately after several suitcases and other baggage went unclaimed in Reynosa and Matamoros, Tamaulipas.[3] On 6 April 2011, Mexican authorities exhumed 59 corpses from eight mass graves.[4] By 7 June 2011, after a series of multiple excavations, a total of 193 bodies were exhumed from mass graves in San Fernando.

Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Durango_massacres

The 2011 Durango massacres were a series of mass murders that occurred in 2011.[1][2] According to El Universal and Yahoo! News, at least 340 bodies have been found in mass graves around the city of Durango as of February 2012;[3][4] These mass graves are the first of their kind in the state of Durango and third of their kind in Mexico. These mass graves had more bodies than the 2011 Tamaulipas massacre of 189 bus passengers.[5] Since April 2011, there have been 7 mass graves found around Durango. One of these mass graves was found in a vacant auto repair lot in Durango with 89 bodies.[6] One of the bodies identified was Alfonso Peña, the former mayor of Tepehuanes Municipality, Durango.[7]

[lunatica]

79. Both stories seem to be from 2011.

That was quite a few years ago, and the similarity of the murders means both were done by the same group or groups. From the article you posted it seems the Zeta Cartel were involved in at least one. And a lot of government officials, like the mayor in the second piece you posted, are corrupt and involved with the cartels.

I rest my case. The cartels are at war with each other. When they’re at war people get killed. People who are involved with them.

These are not random massacres done by disconnected murderers wandering around looking for bus loads of people who they can massacre all at once and then singlehandedly bury in mass graves in the wilds.

[X_Digger]

80. If you say so. *pat*

[lunatica]

81. I have extensive family and know people in various parts of Mexico

They feel quite safe. It’s not anywhere close to what you want to insist it is.

Picking some story about cartels fighting for supremacy doesn’t mean Mexico is full of murderers.

That’s like thinking the massacre in El Paso is what happens in every single city and town in the US all the time.

[Stonepounder]

8. Somebody need to file an action at the Hague.

I know the US doesn't think anything about the World Court, but Mexico could file an action and the US could be tried in absentia and it would make it awkward for US. Which tRump could brag about, right?

[BigmanPigman]

10. Can they do that?

[FirstLight]

41. DING!

I am onboard with this, and have been wondering how the International Community could go about putting Trumo in his place and assisting us in getting some justice SOMEHOW!

[Hortensis]

66. Tried for what? Sure, groupthink among some has already

established to the group's own satisfaction Trump's hate speech is the proximate cause of these deaths, but The Hague is not going to agree. Could identifying this as domestic terrorism bring some laws related to government duty into play? The killer reportedly posted a "manifesto" to 8chan an hour and a half before the killings 650 miles from where he lived.

Btw, Hispanic residents of El Paso, citizens and noncitizens, have been living with a degree of civil safety that would be the envy of billions. One vicious killer doesn't change that reality, and it would almost certainly be impossible to establish negligence on the part of NM and local authorities. Reportedly the first police arrived hardly more than a minute after the shootings began, and they took the killer into custody without using their own guns.

What I'm waiting for is to find out if Mexico actually has a genuine legal case to bring against the U.S. related to this event and what laws would be involved, or if this is just political hot air.

[AllaN01Bear]

9. i was just thinking abut this being an international incident.

[billh58]

11. How U.S. gun deaths compare to other countries

Americans are 10 times more likely to be killed by guns than people in other developed countries, a new study finds.

Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. And, even though the United States' suicide rate is similar to other countries, the nation's gun-related suicide rate is eight times higher than other high-income countries, researchers said.

The study was published online Feb. 1 in The American Journal of Medicine.

"Overall, our results show that the U.S., which has the most firearms per capita in the world, suffers disproportionately from firearms compared with other high-income countries," said study author Erin Grinshteyn, an assistant professor at the School of Community Health Science at the University of Nevada-Reno. "These results are consistent with the hypothesis that our firearms are killing us rather than protecting us," she said in a journal news release.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-compare-to-other-countries/

Other countries may have higher per capita murder/suicide rates, but we lead the world in gun murder/suicide rates.

[paleotn]

34. Canada is a good analog....

Culturally similar. Big North American country with a historical frontier and "wild west", thus a similar historical link to firearms. Similar hunting culture. Yet far more stringent gun laws and only 25% of our firearms death rate. What gives? Maybe lack of an over sized gun manufacturers lobby, with decades of gun porn and propaganda, pushing cold steel penis extenders. That's my hypothesis.

[Igel]

49. We lead the developed world.

It's like saying the South Eugene Axemen (if they're still called that--the high school team) are the football champions for the 2nd year running, with the best record.

Assuming, of course, we completely ignore college football, professional football, and even football from the other 49 states and most of Oregon.

Between the grey text box with "high-income countries", "developed countries," and "high-income nations" and the text outside the box, with "we lead the world," is a rather big change in context. Of course, Mexico's worse, but it's also a low-income and apparently "undeveloped" (or "lesser developed&quot country, making it both more poor and more deadly. Yum.


Overall, the weird thing is that as the numbers of firearms per capita has increased in the last 15 years or so the per capital gun-related murder rate's declined. That's as part of an overall decline in crime, to be sure, but if the theory says "high firearm ownership rates lead to high per capita firearm death rates," the prediction has to be "higher firearm ownership rates lead to higher per capita firearm death rates." Unless we want to--as we must--complicate the theory and prediction by adding some additional contingencies. But then you complicate things past sound-bite status.

[jimmy the one]

77. not so weird - gun ownership rates declined with violent crime rates

Last edited Tue Aug 6, 2019, 08:44 AM - Edit history (1)

igel: Overall, the weird thing is that as the numbers of firearms per capita has increased in the last 15 years or so the per {capita} gun-related murder rate's declined. That's as part of an overall decline in crime, to be sure, but if the theory says "high firearm ownership rates lead to high per capita firearm death rates," the prediction has to be "higher firearm ownership rates lead to higher per capita firearm death rates."

The flaw in your reasoning is you conflate firearms per capita, with gun ownership rates, they are generally not the same. Thus the latter conclusions of your paragraph above generally hold true.
The decline in crime & violent crime & gun crime, has roughly occurred concurrently with a decline in gun ownership rates, especially between 1992 & 2000, the clinton years. While national gunstock has indeed increased, the increase has inordinately been distributed amongst existing gun owners, failing to comparatively increase new gun ownership..

There are 3 reputable polls that show gun ownership RATES have fallen over the past 30 years: Gallup*, Pew, & GSS (general social survey). {Note: CBS has recently corroborated this trend with a poll ~2016, diverging slightly. *Gallup corroborates for the bush years 2000 - 2008}

1) Gallup: .. even Gallup's numbers show a decline in gun ownership since the early 1990s, from 54% of households in late 1993 to 43%.

2) General Social Survey (GSS) .. data show a substantial decline in the shares of both households and individuals with guns... 1973, 49% reported having a gun or revolver in their home or garage. In 2012, 34% said they had a gun in their home or garage.
.. personal gun ownership in 1980, 29% said a gun in their home personally belonged to them. This stands at 22% in the 2012 GSS survey. http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/
3) ... The Pew Research Center has tracked gun ownership since 1993, and our surveys largely confirm the General Social Survey trend. In our Dec 1993 survey, 45% reported having a gun in their household; in early 1994, the GSS found 44% saying they had a gun in their home. A Jan 2013 Pew Research Center survey found 33% saying they had a gun, rifle or pistol in their home, as did 34% in the 2012 wave of {GSS}.

According to all 3 polls above, personal & household gun ownership rates fell dramatically {~35%} during the same 8 yr time period as when violent crime & total crime rates fell dramatically {~35%}, ~1992 - 2000.
National gunstock increased during that time period as well ({over 75 millions}, also to now, but is demonstrably shown that a solid portion of those guns went to existing gun owners rather than creating any increase in the rate of gun owners.
The clinton crime initiative went into effect in 1994, which also had an affect on declining violent crime rates, but wouldn't've affected 1992, 93, 94.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=178997

June 30, 2016 Despite a recent uptick in gun sales, the percentage of U.S. households that own guns is at its lowest level in almost four decades, a new poll has found.
A recent CBS News poll found that 36% of adults either personally own a firearm or live with someone who does–the lowest level since 1978. That’s 10% lower than gun ownership rates in 2012 and 17 points lower than 1994’s high of 53%.

&op=noop

[MicaelS]

13. Good.

More power to them.

[Tiggeroshii]

15. any lawsuit should include treatment of ice detainees

[FirstLight]

42. right?

This is an INTERNATIONAL issue....but the rest of the world is also dealing with it's problems too...

[Mc Mike]

16. I'll see you in court. Something Rump has heard since he was 14 years old.

Thousands of times.

I'm not saying it's a bid thing for Prez Obrador to say or do, but still.

[yaesu]

18. the fascists, tRump have been inciting violence, its time they get their asses sued off. nt

[KentuckyWoman]

31. Recommended but I honestly don't think it matters

Mexico has it's own troubles to worry about and quite frankly there's nothing they can do about this.

In my VERY humble opinion, the only this racist shit stops is when the majority of Americans refuse to accept it in any form or fashion. Instead we are voting it into office....... still.

[warmfeet]

33. Good!

Fuckers here won't do shit.

[customerserviceguy]

61. Sounds like a good way to end up with

tariffs from a US President who might not see that as neighborly.

[Cha]

64. I appreciate Mexico

is taking action to do something about the psycho-racist, violence instigator in the wh.

[Sleepscratch]

67. The Situation, Mike

Stage one: Plan for years to make sure oil is pricey

Stage two: Act surprised about Jeffrey Epstein

Stage three: Stereotype liberals as "rodents"

Stage four: Get a wing-nut to wig out

Stage four: Repeat the word "terrorism" 39 times each morning

Stage five: Release "important information" about Iran and centrifuges

Stage six: Rake in the big dinero from the sale of robot tanks

[real Cannabis calm]

68. K&R