Portland antifa/right wing protests escalate to 'civil disturbance'

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Oregonian


Updated Jun 29, 4:53 PM; Posted Jun 29, 10:00 AM



Dave Killen/The Oregonian 1 / 107
Dave Killen/The Oregonian
Portland Protest June 2019
Multiple groups, including Rose City Antifa, the Proud Boys and conservative activist Haley Adams were protesting in downtown Portland on Saturday, June 29, 2019.



Noble Guyon 2 / 107
Civil Disturbance June 29, 2019
A man checks his phone while surrounded by police and medics after being injured during a civil disturbance in Portland on June 29, 2019.

By The Oregonian/OregonLive

Multiple demonstrations are taking place in downtown Portland on Saturday.

Online postings indicate two right-wing demonstrations are scheduled for Saturday: one involving the Proud Boys, a fraternal organization known for street fighting, and another organized by conservative activist Haley Adams and the “HimToo Movement.” Counterprotesters, including supporters of Rose City Antifa, are planning to gather in opposition.

Portland police say three sites -- at Pioneer Square, Chapman Square and Waterfront Park -- will be involved, and that the events will begin around noon. Lt. Tina Jones declined to comment on the groups that police were anticipating at each protest, or how many people they expected to be there.

Read more: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2019/06/proud-boys-antifa-plan-to-protest-in-downtown-portland-on-saturday.html

[Iliyah]

1. These people are trying to start a massive violent event

and hope it carries over to other states.

[CentralMass]

4. I vehemently disagree with you . A violent bag of assholesis just that, no matter what

their poltical leanings are.

[sandensea]

5. But Iliyah is probably right: the intent is almost certainly there

They may fail, sure - but not for lack of trying.

[Brainfodder]

155. Usually doesn't end well for the instigators.

KARMA please get off your smoke break!

[CentralMass]

2. I was planning to take the Max to the Moda Center shortly. Im thinking twice about it.

[yaesu]

3. I'm sure police understand that you can crack a tRumpster over the head as hard as you can

and do no damage, well, maybe break the baton.

[The Liberal Lion]

6. I unequivocally support and stand with the Antifa.

?w=1400

[EarthFirst]

8. I'm with you (and Antifa) as well... nt

[TomVilmer]

12. Never liked Antifa's methods...

... they are just playing silly games together with fellow extremists. Also in Denmark they always ends up in stupid fights with the Police. Violence is just violence - other methods are needed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opinion/how-to-make-fun-of-nazis.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/opinion/comedy-protest-taxes-nazis.html
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/the-best-way-to-fight-neo-nazis-is-to-laugh/

[Jake Stern]

18. They do shit like throw concrete at people and eggs and bottles at cops

And yet they're mystified why folks don't support them.

[The Liberal Lion]

22. War is hell

[Coventina]

16. I also stand with Antifa. The US kills Nazis, that's what we do.

End of story.

[The Liberal Lion]

23. Exactly

We must not coddle, there is no middle ground to be found, and we must certainly not bend our knees. If we are to be defeated let us be defeated fighting and not prostrate begging for mercy.

[wryter2000]

83. So you support murder

Interesting

[Coventina]

98. If you consider WW2 vets murderers, then yes, I support murder.

I'm pretty darn proud of my murdering grandfather.

[wryter2000]

128. We're not talking about WWII

We're talking about street demonstrations today. Are you going to murder someone in the streets today?

[Coventina]

141. If Nazis come after me, I will defend myself by any means necessary.

Or I will defend other from Nazis by any means necessary.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

145. The US Army during World War II was the US Army

They weren’t a bunch of sketchy people wearing masks.

[Coventina]

148. Don't care. Nazis are still Nazis. n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

162. Yeah, but you do realize if you kill a neo-nazi

...and you’re not in the middle of some armed conflict between regular armies, then you just go to jail for murder?

That’s sort of how things work.

[Coventina]

163. Sad that we are now a fascist state. I'm not going down without a fight.

I will always fight Nazis.

[BurntPickle]

167. The Nazi Party ended in World War 2

Cut the rhetoric. As much as we disagree with Conservatives, do we really have to label them something they're not? It's making our side look like a bunch of silly kooks.

We can win on policy. We can win the war of ideas. No need to have fist fights in the streets.

[Marengo]

20. Do you unequivocally support their use of a chemical weapon that can cause significant bodily...

Harm?

[The Liberal Lion]

21. What part of unequivocal was ambiguous?

[Marengo]

25. So you also support the beating of Alejandro Godinez and Luis Torres?

[The Liberal Lion]

26. No matter how you phrase it my answer remains the same

unequivocal

[Marengo]

27. So, it's okay to physically assault innocent persons based on their appearance?

[The Liberal Lion]

30. I make my choices in full recognition of their consequences

and am ready to accept them as they may appear.

[Marengo]

32. With that, you've proven to me Antifa blackshirts are no better than Proud Boy brownshirts.

Well done!

[The Liberal Lion]

38. Well it's too bad you take my words to judge them, but so be it.

In war there is room for diplomats and soldiers. This is war. I'm not equating myself as a soldier, no I wouldn't be so brash, but I can see you are more of a diplomat than me. I hope your diplomacy wins the day, I, however, doubt that it will. I have cast my lot. I feel no shame in doing so.

[Marengo]

44. Yeah, I tend to judge anyone who thinks it's acceptable to physically assault someone based...

On their appearance as you do. An unfavorable judgment. You’re no liberal, and using Ted Kennedy’s image as your avatar is insulting to him and his legacy.

[Jedi Guy]

92. You're fighting the good fight here, but also wasting your time.

The person you're responding to has stated before that they're okay with preemptive murder when it comes to certain people. They're not going to condemn the people who beat two innocent Marines in the street. Those two Marines are just collateral damage. It could've been anyone, though. If some rando walked up to me in the street and asked "Are you proud?" I'd stare at them like they were nuts, so yeah, I'd probably have gotten a beatdown, too.

Unfortunately it seems like a lot of people on the left are completely comfortable with the sorts of ideas and behaviors that they would (and probably have) stridently condemn on the right. They're okay with abandoning the idea of free speech as long as it silences the people they don't like. They're okay with responding to speech with violence. It's really saddening to me.

[ripcord]

108. No better than street gangs

Where you from...........

[Jedi Guy]

112. Not sure I understand your comment, ripcord.

As to where I'm from, I'm a military brat, so I'm kinda from all over and nowhere. I grew up near Biloxi, Mississippi when my dad was stationed at Keesler AFB. In my late teens I moved to Tucson, Arizona when he got a job with Boeing doing simulator work for the C-130 crews at Davis-Monthan AFB. These days I hang my hat in Hamilton, Ontario.

In any case, I don't have a lot of respect for Antifa or their methods. I don't have any respect at all for the Proud Boys and their fellow travelers, and I have nothing but contempt for their ideology. That said, I don't think preemptively beating the hell out of them (or anyone else, for that matter) is a good idea.

[ripcord]

123. Where are you from is what gang members ask strangers before they start shooting

Antifa beat and shouted racial slurs at two Hispanic Marines and this weekend beat a journalist who reports on their violence, I honestly don't understand how anyone who supports these actions can call themselves liberals, I certainly don't think they are.

[Jedi Guy]

130. Ohhhhhh, okay. Now I'm tracking.

The thread is full of people cheering on Antifa's idiocy, so unfortunately I don't really know what to say. I think it's sad that so many people have abandoned the principles that make us liberals. There are some things I'm not willing to jettison in the name of revenge, or of victory, for that matter. I regret that that seems to be the minority position on DU when it comes to Antifa.

[ripcord]

134. I agree

We simply can not become them.

[Marengo]

152. There's a self identified pacifist in this thread who says this incident is acceptable collateral...

Damage. A simple mistake made by righteously pissed of heroes who are defending America.
Cuz Trump, cuz capitalism, whatever, but certainly not because they are violent sociopaths The SA, SS, Cheka, Securitate, Stasi and so on and on were populated by shit sacks like this.

[ripcord]

159. We don't accept that pitiful excuse from republicans

And I expect at least as much from the left.

[Marengo]

120. Thanks for the back up a Jedi Guy. Substituting one violent ideology for a another, as many of the..

Black shirts and their apologists are eager for, is reprehensible to this liberal Democrat.

[Jedi Guy]

121. It's nice to know that there are other folks on DU who feel the same way I do.

We definitely appear to be in the minority, though, judging by the comments on this thread and others like it. Like I said above, it blows my mind that people who purport to be progressives are loudly advocating for suppressing the Constitutional rights of people they dislike or disagree with, as if curtailing rights is going to solve any of the problems we face. I find it both disturbing and disgusting that those same people are happily advocating preemptive violence, as well. We're supposed to be better than that.

In any case, thank you for refusing to abandon the principles that make us who and what we are.

[DashOneBravo]

138. +1

[wryter2000]

81. A pox on both their houses

[backscatter712]

88. bEcAuSe a bUnCh oF GuYs tHoWiNg mIlKsHaKeS Is jUsT As bAd...

...aS A GrOuP ThAt's aLrEaDy kIlLeD PeOpLe aNd wAnTs tO ThRoW MiLlIoNs iN OvEnS!!!

[Marengo]

91. I was referring to the assault on Alejandro Godinez and Luis Torres by Antifa members. Who did...

They kill?

[duhneece]

124. I'm with you

Violence begets violence. Creativity is needed more than ever

[backscatter712]

95. Hmmm. Let's see. They're wearing LARP armor, and have garbage lid shields with faesces on them...

They're marching down the street with tiki torches, doing Heil Hitler salutes, and chanting "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!!!"

But let's not judge by appearances...

[Marengo]

106. You really don't have any credibility, do you? They were off-duty Marines in civilian attire...

Attacked while site-seeing by an Antifa mob for apparently resembling Proud Boys in the opinion of that mob even though both are Hispanic. The beating continued even after two identified themselves as Marines and at one point Godinez shouted out “I’m Mexican!”

[samir.g]

133. There are quite a few Latinx proud boys

fwiw

[Marengo]

157. Begs the question as to why.

[samir.g]

164. Beats me.

[fleabiscuit]

149. Like a sweet ol grand dad looking dude trying to run down a trans woman?

Link to tweet

[Marengo]

151. Antifa or Proud Boy? I have a difficulty determining the difference.

[fleabiscuit]

160. "Why doesn't the SPLC list antifa as a hate group?"

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map?state=OR&fbclid=IwAR3AG7zd9eEE1djFQUiHcSHk_eNISyFCOOc2Js5RlD90JPD5JNrv9htK1_8

Why doesn't the SPLC list antifa as a hate group?
"The SPLC condemns violence in all its forms, including the violent acts of far-left street movements like antifa (short for anti-fascist). But the propensity for violence, though present in many hate groups, is not among the criteria for listing. Also, antifa groups do not promote hatred based on race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender identity (see criteria above)."

[fleabiscuit]

161. I'm not a member. But I'm not afraid of them either.

Pacific Northwest Anti-Fascist Workers Collective

https://www.facebook.com/pnwawc

[The Liberal Lion]

28. May I ask you what is so upsetting to to you I would support the Antifa?

I'm not asking you to support them, nor am I condemning you for not. Each of us will walk our own path. To me, I've been in the struggle with the right since Occupy Wall Street days. I was out there, ready to do battle with the right. I was disappointed when many in the leadership of the movement called for peace, and was disillusioned as the democratic leadership condemned the movement, yet I gave peace a chance. For 8 years we gave peace a chance, and what did we get? We got a man in the White House who in no way deserves to be there, who lost the vote of the people AND who is in the White House through fraud. Again, our leaders called for peace and compromise. Compromise with evil? Peace with those who would see our demise? Again, however, I gave peace a chance. Where is it getting us? We worry about dethroning this orange asshole, when in reality a dead stray dog should be able to win an election against trump. We know that the system is fixed, nay, destroyed, yet we put faith in it? That's fine if that the road you want to walk down. Me, I'll take the road less traveled my friend. I have no quarrel with you. I encourage you to continue to engage in the methods that you think are fruitful. I shall do the same.

Peace be unto you.

[Marengo]

37. Oh please, peddle that propaganda elsewhere. You offer nothing more than same shit different...

Bosses. For the record, I was once involved with the Antifa movement until I realized what the bulk of my associates and the leadership (such as it was) represented, and it sure as hell is not democracy and decency. As for your “generosity”, that only stands so long as you’re not in the position to violently suppress any opposition. I know your kind, and I am your intractable enemy.

[The Liberal Lion]

40. Then so be it. You are my enemy.

Too bad.

[quakerboy]

114. Cant say for anyone else

But I unequivocally support their right to self defense and defense of their fellow citizens who may not be able to defend themselves

[Marengo]

118. Was the assault on Alejandro Godinez and Luis Torres an act of self defense?

[quakerboy]

125. Is perfection expected of any group?

I wasnt there for that incident. Im not actually even aware of it outside of reading your posts on this thread. But with number of times the would be Nazis march and the Anti-Fascists show up to oppose them, if thats all you have, im going to say mistakes are a condition of being human.

And I will point out that one downside of the face masks and bandannas are infiltrators and instigators.

[Marengo]

126. Ok, so we have you on record saying it's acceptable to physically assault individuals, innocent of..

What they are accused of, based on appearance alone. That makes you better than the brown shirts, how?

[quakerboy]

142. You are desperate arent you. Gotta find that strawman so you can get your dig in.

You have me on record saying that mistakes will happen in the course of human events. When you find me the movement or organization in history that has made 0 mistakes, you let me know, and I will get right on trying to hold all other movements and organizations to the standard of perfection.


You may also have me on record stating that while I happen to be a pacifist personally, I fully understand the anger and fear of people who are standing out in a street with no protection other than their fellow protestors, while facing multiple allied armed and hostile forces well known for their practices of killing and injuring of innocent persons. In that situation, if you can only find one example of them making a mistake.. I commend them for their restraint.

Now.. I'm get that this is a pet cause for you. I could speculate on why, but thats your story to tell. But at the end of the day.. you are wrong. Your opposition to those who are willing put their lives bodies on the line for the defense of this nation is unfortunate.

[Marengo]

146. Thugs beating uninvolved persons based on their appearance while shouting racial epithets are...

Defending the nation?

[quakerboy]

165. American citizens standing up to organized armed invaders in our cities

Putting their personal safety and even lives on the line to stand up for what we have, against fascists are defending the nation. Unlike those formally charged with defending this nation, they dont even receive any benefits or legal protections for doing so.

I find your choice of avatar interesting. I hate to see someone sporting that emblem so focused on trying to further divide one group of Americas defenders from another. I would assert that instead it should inspire compassion to all sides of this incident you describe which would seem to be best described as friendly fire.

[Marengo]

166. You're as much a pacifist as I'm the Queen of Egypt, and this conversation is a waste of my time.

Off to iggy list with ya

[backscatter712]

33. Me too. Fuck the Nazis - they're getting what's coming to them.

In before the brigade of "tHrOwInG MiLkShAkEs mAkEs yOu jUsT As bAd aS ThE GuYs tHaT HaVe kIlLeD PeOpLe aNd wAnT To pUt mIlLiOnS In oVeNs!!!1!1"

[Marengo]

70. I take it then you would be okay with me splashing a "milkshake" of quickcrete slurry into the...

Eyes of an Antifa who displays the hammer and sickle emblem in one form or another? Communists did some pretty heinous shit and will do so again if given the opportunity

[backscatter712]

73. You know that the "concrete milkshake" story is a neo-Nazi lie, don't you?

Of course, the Portland PD spread that rumor as well ("BuT tHe PoLiCe WoUlD nEvEr LiE!!&quot

[Marengo]

75. Is that a deflection attempt I detect? It sure is, and I wonder why you won't answer my question.

[backscatter712]

93. And why should I answer a question about a wholly fabricated hypothetical?

First, you spout that alt-right propaganda about concrete milkshakes, and when I call bullshit on it, you claim I'm implicitly approving of concrete milkshakes. Why should I dignify your disingenuous garbage with debate?

[Marengo]

104. Oh, it's obvious you do approve. Claiming otherwise is the only disingenuousness here. Once again.

If your counterclaim was anything other than a bullshit diversion from the obvious, you would have provided irrefutable evidence. Cops-always-lie is the giveaway.

[Downtown Hound]

36. Damn straight!

Any group that gives as much as they do to the fight against fascism deserves our respect and gratitude.

[alphafemale]

85. Fuck Nazis.

It's not just another idea.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

143. I'm sorry but the people who call themselves "Antifa" are sketchy as hell

The term “titushky” immediately comes to mind. (Google it.)

Now I am firmly anti-fascist.

But that’s just called plain common sense and decency. No weird masks required.

[BigmanPigman]

7. That Nazi murderer of Heather Heyer

just got sent to jail for life and they still are pulling this BS?!? I think their combined IQ is in the double digits.

I was confronted by the Proud Boys at an anti-tRump rally two years ago and our side ignored their attempts at trying to incite violence. Instead we smiled and waved peace signs at them. That pissed them off and there was no violence.

Earlier they disrupted a former city council member who was a guest speaker and the sheriffs did NOTHING to stop them. They continued to disrupt speakers until the top Sheriff was called by the council member who told her to tell the sheriffs to separate the groups and stop standing there, watching the Proud Boys and smiling (the sheriffs like the Proud Boys I found out later).

[happyaccident]

29. The tactic of these groups is to create violence, antifa allows them this

I dealt with this in the 90's anarchist movement. "throwing rocks at cops" only gives cops the opening to oppress other social justice groups in the movement. We physically fought nazi skinheads and the like because they were truly violent. These modern nazis are more into the optics and victimhood. They are pathetic. Let's get a tuba brigade going!

[Downtown Hound]

39. If you think these modern Nazis aren't violent

Then you have not been paying attention.

[happyaccident]

51. I'm talking about nazi marches where they try to create havoc for the media

Counter protesters always outnumber them. Strength in numbers and an unwillingness to play their game is a better tactic. And I've been paying attention since 94, we used to hunt down and beat the shit out of nazi skinhead punks and rapists of homeless women and sex workers. Real assholes who really got violent. Not being snarky, am just curious, what is your experience in activism or streetfighting?

[Downtown Hound]

53. I've participated in black bloc led break away marches in San Francisco

during the run up to the Iraq War in 2003. Also non-violent civil disobedience against prop. 8 in California for which I was arrested. I'm not opposed to non-violent resistance. There are times when I think it's the better and more wise choice, and I did that time. I'm just also not opposed to more aggressive forms of it when circumstances call for it.

Street fighting? Not much. Used to box when I was a teenager and got into a few fights in school. Also knocked a drunk, belligerent asshole on his ass one night a few years ago when he was harassing me and my wife on the way of The Dollar Tree, but that's pretty much it. He got up and wanted to fight and charged towards me, but a crowd had formed and held him back.

But would I be willing to fight Nazis in a street brawl if it came down to it? Fuck yes. And the truth is, I probably would have been involved in the battles of Berkeley a few years back if I wasn't recovering from heart surgery. As it was, I had to watch them on my phone in the hospital. But if I had been healthy at the time, you better believe I would have gone down and lent a hand to Antifa if I had been well enough.

[happyaccident]

61. That's awesome, thanks for your involvement

I can't generalize and say every antifa protest is like this but I wonder what would happen if antifa showed up and refused to fight. I've met some Proud Boys and the like and wasn't impressed . They constantly talked about what media thought of them and their cosplay military outfits. We had to street fight because we were homeless street trash anarchists who the cops refused to protect. And the nazi skinheads we fought? They would beat you into a coma and knock out all your teeth. All I've seen so far is a bunch of nazi posers trying to make a scene. I just don't see what antifa's true purpose is. If the nazis didn't have antifa, they would have to invent them. NAZIS NEED ANTIFA, without them they're just a bunch of losers walking down the street.

[Downtown Hound]

63. Read up a little on the troll storms and harassment campaigns they have organized against

various people (often Jewish). They did this even before Charlottesville. They don't need Antifa. Antifa may provide them an outlet to direct their aggression towards, but without Antifa, they would find other ways to cause mayhem. And as long as Antifa does exist, that gives them something to focus on instead of harassing or doing something much worse to innocent people. Another reason why I'm glad Antifa exists.

[happyaccident]

68. That's a good point. Something to consider, thanks

[Downtown Hound]

57. And just to add a little evidence to let you know that I'm not bullshitting

This is one of the marches I attended in 2003. That is, in fact, me at time frame 1:58 jumping out of a cops way as he's dragging a fellow protester away for throwing his tear gas canister away. Light blue jeans and black shirt.

And this was the time I helped blockade an intersection outside of the CA State Supreme Court when they initially upheld prop 8 in 2009. I appear in this video as well, but I'm not going to identify myself because in this vid you can see my face. We were all arrested shortly afterwards.

[happyaccident]

67. Wow that was cool, it's been awhile seeing that kind of protest

Makes me feel lonely. I used to be surrounded by that energy and that righteous fight and community. Best times of my life. I find modern activism with an emphasis on social media to be not quite as effective for me. I mostly know older activists who now have families and jobs. I miss chaining myself to stuff and daring the cops to "do your worst". Don't miss streetfighting, that's for sure. It was terrifying but necessary. Violence is always an option, we used to say. Thanks for talking, Downtown Hound.

[Downtown Hound]

99. Likewise

Yeah, I have a wife now, and it makes me a lot less eager to be brave for the cause, because my first and most important cause is to love and support her. Can't do that if I'm in jail or worse.

But there might come a day when I head out and reclaim the streets once again. Who knows?

By the way, I've read about what you guys used to do in fighting with those Nazis. Never though I would actually be talking to one of you. Respect. We honor soldiers and their sacrifices all the time. But no one ever remembers things like the people who literally kicked the fascists out of our streets. Respect and gratitude.

[rockfordfile]

84. if you don't stand up to the Nazis it will spread. History has proven that.

[quakerboy]

9. 100% lock guarantee

That police had as much a hand instigating this violence as either other group. They walk hand in hand with the proud boys here, and are quite quick to take any opportunity to try and escalate things to a point where they can justify violence towards Antifa.

[backscatter712]

60. How many of these cops have swastikas, SS bolts, or "1488" tattooed under their uniforms?

I'll bet it ain't zero...

[quakerboy]

113. If you go to the article

And scroll through the pictures..

Note the garb, gear, and stance of the police officers facing the wannabe Nazi imports (noting mentally that the RW around the nation are responsible for invading multiple cities, causing numerous assaults, and at least one death.

Then note the garb, gear, and stance of the officers facing Portland residents who are willing to stand up against Nazis.

Isn't interesting the difference.

[brooklynite]

10. UPDATE: Demonstrators clash in Portland, Oregon, throw 'concrete milkshakes'

Police in Portland, Oregon, declared an unlawful assembly Saturday after antifa protesters clashed with far-right demonstrators, including the Proud Boys, in the downtown area, resulting in multiple injuries.

Authorities believe some demonstrators during the noontime action threw "milkshakes" that were actually cups filled with quick-drying concrete, a powder-and-water mixture that can set in as little as 10 minutes.

Police have received information that some of the milkshakes thrown today during the demonstration contained quick-drying cement," the Portland Police Department tweeted. "We are encouraging anyone hit with a substance today to report it to police."

A woman was arrested for allegedly throwing a substance, police said in a statement.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1025036

[backscatter712]

34. I do believe it's the Nazis that are making up the "concrete" part.

Hard to tell the difference between "quick-drying cement" and malt powder or smoothie mix.

[Triloon]

45. I have received information that some of the Portland Police Dept are

full of quick-dry horseshit.

[backscatter712]

56. ACAB. Half the cops in this country are wearing swastika tattoos under their uniforms.

[Jedi Guy]

90. You've got a citation to back up that assertion and you're gonna link it any second now, right?

I'm sure there are racists and white supremacists in the ranks of the police, since there have been plenty of stories about it. There are racists and white supremacists in any profession or group of people. But asserting that half of the cops in the US are racists and white supremacists is ridiculous.

[Marengo]

78. This information is what, and from who?

[Triloon]

100. well it's a kind of joke.

I was using the same phrasing as the Portland Police Bureau used in order to show how unreliable their report is. There were thousands of people there and no one mentions concrete shakes except the police, and they present no evidence of it beyond a second hand rumor. But, not remarkably, it's this little nugget of rumor that many people have seized on. The police aren't required to tell us the truth about anything, and they have a looong history of deceit. Especially in describing the acts of the left wing. I heard it from Sacco and Vanzetti.

[Paladin]

13. If now isn't the time for protests like these, when will the time be right?

They ought to be going on, coast to coast.

[The Liberal Lion]

14. I agree

[happyaccident]

31. Non violence requires more bravery and is actually effective

Antifa think they are fighting, they are not. They are playing at war, which requires killing. The anarchist movement in the 90's was destroyed by this stupidity. Too much fantasy, not enough compromise with their allies. If you are not violent, they consider you complicit. Anyone on here saying they want a street war, you don't know what you are talking about. I do. Ask me.

[Downtown Hound]

41. "Non violence requires more bravery and is actually effective"

Tell that to the Tibetans, who've been practicing it for decades against the Chinese, and it's gotten them nowhere.

And don't bother mentioning Gandhi. The only reason he was successful is because the second world was decimated England's ability to be a colonial power anymore.

[happyaccident]

46. Then pick up a gun and start fighting.

[Downtown Hound]

47. If it really comes down to that, you better believe I will

In the meantime, I'm perfectly content throwing my support behind those that are genuinely fighting fascism.

[backscatter712]

48. Yep, and also tell that to the LGBTQIA community.

What is it that we celebrate today with parades, drag shows, and rainbow colors?

Oh yeah, we're celebrating an event where people got fed up with oppression and started throwing bricks at cops. That actually seemed to get somewhere.

[Downtown Hound]

50. That's the thing all the non-violence fanatics want to forget

They want to whitewash all of the violence that NEEDED to happen first before they could even afford the luxury of non-violence. But that's all it is, a white wash. And it's insulting to the people that had the courage to really throw down so they could have the privilege of celebrating in peace.

[The Liberal Lion]

52. I like how you put it

Namely "...they could even afford the luxury of non-violence". Your point, to me, is very eloquently stated.

Myself, I've yet to meet a bully who stopped bullying please someone let them beat them up.

Turn the other cheek? Maybe once, but no more than that for me.

[backscatter712]

54. Even the non-violent tactics are not actually non-violent.

The tactic is to troll the enemy into violence, then make them look bad doing it. It only works when you have enough potential greater authority and power that can be pushed into taking action to stop your enemy.

Bloody Sunday in Birmingham is the classic example.

But it's not the only tactic, and in situations where there's no likely intervention, it's a futile tactic.

Sometimes, the tactic is to use force yourself, be it physical force, or the force of humiliation, even if you're outgunned, to create enough of a deterrent to make the alt-right chuds think twice before coming back.

[The Liberal Lion]

55. Given our current situation I agree with you 100%

and see the world from very similar eyes.

[backscatter712]

35. Fuck yeah. When the right wing started throwing babies into concentration camps...

...they lost the right to be treated civilly.

[eallen]

42. It depends on what you mean by "like these." Masked individuals attacking others?

Nowhere near time for that.

[backscatter712]

49. They're already throwing babies into concentration camps. When does it become time?

[eallen]

58. Who are "they"?

If some secret political organization announced that they were going to target in some way Stephen Miller and the other administration officials responsible for those camps, we could have a conversation about whether that was an appropriate tactic at this time.

That is not what is happening.

What is happening is violent action against those who show up in protest to their protests. Or even against those who show up to film their protests. You have no idea what connection there is, if any, between those who throw babies into camps and those who are on the receiving end of antifa violence.

[backscatter712]

62. Oh, but we do both know the connection.

You have no idea what connection there is, if any, between those who throw babies into camps and those who are on the receiving end of antifa violence.

Oh, I think we both know the connection - You can't have "antifa" without the "fa". Fascism. Nazism. In some cases, they're literally sporting swastikas, but of course, they're also rebranding. They're the ones that are Trump's and Miller's base. They're the ones infiltrating police departments across the country, and yes, they're the ones putting on ICE uniforms and putting babies in concentration camps.

I see the connection just fine.

[eallen]

65. So, you're going to decide who you violently attack?

Because you see "connections"?

You won't have my sympathy when you end up in jail.

[Marengo]

71. What's the connection to Alejandro Godinez and Luis Torres?

[rockfordfile]

87. The Neo-Nazi repulbicans support the death camps. They have a history of that

[Jake Stern]

15. What's this about some reporter getting beat up?

The Trumpers are all in a froth over it.

[backscatter712]

101. They've got their panties in a bunch because an alt-right "journalist" tried to dox Antifa members..

...and got himself a knuckle sandwich, washed down with a milkshake for his trouble.

Let's examine the real dynamics.

Since these confrontations started a couple of years ago, the Nazis send people to go snap pictures of Antifa - calling themselves journalists, when all they are is right-wing bloggers, who aren't writing anything resembling journalism. They're trying to catch Antifa members unmasked so they can broadcast their names, home addresses, etc on 4chan and Stormfront, and get them hit with weeks & months of death threats and harassment.

What happened today? A demonstration that Antifa members aren't stupid. They knew a doxxing attempt when they saw one, and sent the right-wing POS responsible back to his Proud Boy buddies with his tail between his legs.

Oh, he got hit? Here, let me play a tune for him on the world's smallest violin...

[Jake Stern]

103. Figured there was more to it. Alt-righties wouldn't have shown much care for a CNN reporter

Last edited Sun Jun 30, 2019, 08:09 PM - Edit history (1)

On Edit: I generally oppose doxxing no matter who does it. To much risk of a false positive or even with the right person folks will harass their spouses, children, parents and coworkers.

It’s a nasty tactic.

[samir.g]

135. Andy Ngo got what was coming to him.

He's not a real reporter, he's a right wing hack.

[Jake Stern]

137. Learned quite a bit about him recently

I read where he helped some neo-nazis help dox reporters which led them to getting death threats. Fuck him.

[Marengo]

150. There's a hardcore advocate of doxxing participating in this thread. When given specific examples...

Of innocent people who were doxxed in error and experienced threats and harassment, that poster said acceptable collateral damage. Should that one be beaten too?

[Jake Stern]

154. A couple points

1. I oppose doxxing completely due to the very real risks from mistaken identity or people who get their jollies by harassing friends and family of the target.

2. I don't support use of violence except in self defense.

Hopefully they will catch the ones who assaulted him and prosecute them fully. That being said I really don't feel bad for him. He helped put people in danger from folks that have proven themselves very willing to carry threats out.

[Marengo]

156. Agree with all your points

[eallen]

19. Antifa's tactics are wrong. We lose when we stand by them.

The right is quite eager to attach antifa to Democratic politicians. Because of nonsense like this.

I hope those politicians have sensible responses ready.

[The Liberal Lion]

24. I would say when they blantatly alter vote totals

show an absolute disregard for democratic institutions, repeatedly, without hesitation, show their willingness to trample on the law and decency and those politicians who are suppose to be holding them accountable defer, political solutions are no longer tenable.

[Downtown Hound]

43. Antifa stood up to the alt right in Charlottesville

And today the alt-right is a shadow of its former self. If that's losing, we need more of it.

[eallen]

59. The alt right is doing fine. Antifa did nothing about recent right-wing violence in Oregon.

[Downtown Hound]

64. Alt right is not doing just fine

They have lost considerable influence and funding. And what do you mean they didn't do anything about he recent right wing violence in Oregon? Have you not seen the videos of them confronting the Proud Boys and the like in the streets?

[eallen]

66. Where were they when the 3%-ers were promising armed support to Republican legislators?

Looks to me that the Proud Boys are doing exactly what they want. They're getting a stupid reaction from antifa, and making the latter look bad.

[Downtown Hound]

96. If you're implying that the fact that the alt-right didn't show up

to help the 3%'ers, I'm not sure why you think their absence is a sign that they're doing well. The 3%'ers are not alt right and never have been.

The Proud Boys try and pretend they're not alt-right even though pretty much everybody knows that they are or at the very least have a strong wing in the alt-right. They just went through a re-branding when alt-right began to mean Nazi. And the reality is, the Proud Boys get smaller and smaller numbers all the time.

[Initech]

69. I really wonder - does Gavin McInnes control both groups?

It seems everywhere the Proud Boys go, Antifa is not too far behind.

[dustyscamp]

72. Someone should reign in these Antifa guys

beating up and tossing quick drying cement is making our side look like crazies.

[backscatter712]

74. Again, the concrete milkshake rumor is literally fake news. Made up by the Nazis.

[dustyscamp]

76. I got to look into that

still the video shows a guy getting attacked and people all around the place blaming Antifa. The next time something like this happens people who don't care about politics or care just enough will automatically assume Antifa, BLM or any other left leaning group is at fault. I wish there was more video before the attack to see what started this.

[Marengo]

77. Between you and the Portland PD, who are we to believe?

[backscatter712]

80. Of course, the Portland Police is always trustworthy.

Why police officers in America have never lied to push their own agenda!

[Marengo]

82. If you had anything substantive to back your claim you wouldn't need to fall back on the...

Police-always-lie canard right out the gate.

[backscatter712]

86. You're the one screaming about concrete. You show proof.

[Marengo]

94. And your proof it's "fake news" is?

[backscatter712]

97. Not that I'm obligated to play your gish-gallop game, but...

Someone forgot to tell the right-wing crybullies that if you buy some real concrete of the kind you'd use to fix your driveway from Lowes or wherever, and mix it in a cup, it's going to look nothing like what was thrown at the junior chudling edgelords in Portland.

Really, if you were going to fight dirty, it'd be easier to take a paper cup, fill it with rocks, and throw that, but nobody's accusing them of that.

I don't see any credible proof that any anti-fascist actually threw anything resembling concrete at those fashie pieces of trash. All that's left is those horrifying ingredients like water, lactose, malt, sugar, artificial colors and flavorings...

Link to tweet

?s=21

[Marengo]

107. Ahahahaha! That's it?? Your irrefutable proof is a tweet from a moron who thinks weaponized...

Concrete slurry is exactly the same as what he used to pour his steps? Please try again, I can use the laugh.

[.99center]

111. Weapons-grade concrete mix is nothing to mess with!

What's the difference between weaponized concrete slurry and normal concrete slurry?

[quakerboy]

115. Not Portland PD

They have a public record of lying about these events, and have a number of (once again) publicly documented literal Nazi worshipers on the payroll.

[rockfordfile]

89. The point is Oregon needs to get rid of these Nazi "proud boys"

Every where they go this happens. They are traitors.

[Triloon]

102. I dont disagree with you, but it should be known

that the P Boys that keep showing up in Portland to stir up trouble are not from Portland, they're not even from Oregon, but cross the state line from Washington from their HQ in Vancouver. They cross state lines, armed, looking for a rumble in the big liberal metropolis, because they cant find one in their own burg.

[jcmaine72]

105. Anyone know who that old dude is in the bottom pic?

I saw the video of him and another man trying to defend him being attacked on Twitter, but not what (if anything) that may have occurred before to give it context.

I have no sympathy for Nazis, but there's always collateral damage when stuff like this occurs. It's ugly and just doesn't play well in the media. There's got to be a better way.

[quakerboy]

116. Im gonna say he is almost certianly with the proud boys

If you look through all the pictures at the page linked to, there are pictures of him from before he was injured, Expandable Baton in hand, apparently approaching Antifa, with bearspray inbound towards him.

I cant seem to find a name for him, though.

[jcmaine72]

117. Thanks for the info.

I should've phrased my question better. I didn't want to know the old dude's name, just if he was a pedestrian who, for one reason or another, got caught up in the chaos, or a PB. if he is indeed with the latter, I have no doubt that he provoked the melee because that's what those zeros seem to specialize in.

Still, I'm just not into violence. I dig that there are a lot of people that want to roll up their sleeves on Nazis, and they certainly ask for it. However, those are depths I'm just not willing to sink to myself unless there's no other way. Nazis want/need to drag the rest of the world down to the gutter with them because they can't survive anywhere else. It's simply a journey I'm not willing to take.

Thanks again.

[JustThinking...]

109. we shouldn't be in-fighting right now

This is no time for half-measures.

This is no time for hesitation or platitudes.

Domestic nazis are killing peaceful citizens in our streets and there should be no debate about if or how we should protect and defend ourselves and our communities againt their clearly stated intentions to do us more harm.

We simply must come prepared to protect and defend ourselves against their violence and their violent ideology by whatever means necessary.

We should not start the violence, and so we don't, but we CAN NOT back down from it either.

The choosing peace part is entirely up to them.

[Marengo]

119. What are the perimeters of "whatever means necessary"?

[JustThinking...]

122. I think it's reasonable...

I think it's reasonable to define "whatever means necessary" as using any amount of force up to what is needed to accomplish the goal of stopping an attack against a victim, with accomplishing that goal being the only consideration. Excessive force is unnecessary however sometimes an attacker could run the risk of bringing excessive force upon themself depending on how their victim views the severity of the threat.

Accomplishing the goal of neutralizing the physical violence the nazis are performing in these cases could probably, and should be achieved by the legitimate and consistent enforcement of existing laws by the police that are present, but obviously that does not always happen.

So when a citizen is physically attacked by a nazi (or anyone) who has announced their intention to do physical harm, and they must defend themselves by force, they wouldn't be able to limit their force to match the force applied in the attack if that would not be enough to completely stop the attack, that might only escelate the force used by the attacker since their intention to harm the victim has been made clear. Instead the victim would be forced by the attacker to use the amount of force that they can be sure will completely stop the attack once and for all.

Thanks for asking me this question, I had to think it through for myself to answer and that's a good thing. I have no idea whether my opinions would hold water legally, and I DO NOT CONDONE INITIATING VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND OR AT ANY TIME, but as the situation that we're discussing is extralegal in nature, (peaceful citizens denied police protection, facing groups of armed nazis who have announced thier attention to physically harm citizens after proving the extent of their intention by murdering at least one peaceful citizen in the street, in front of witnesses and police).

It does go further as we know. Above I was only relating my opinion on defending against physical attacks on individual peaceful citizens. In the broader picture we have a very similar situation of these same attackers publicly announcing their intention to harm our democracy with no political reprisals from the current government, leaving us as peaceful citizens no alternative but to show up and face down these attackers with demonstrations as is proscribed in the constitution, to defend and protect our democracy from those attacks.

It's only when those attackers begin to make good on their threats of physical violence, without interference of law enforcement, that the citizen's physical defensive use of force must obviously be applied.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

144. K.

[Marengo]

153. Thanks for the thoughtful reply, I'll reply in kind when I have the time to give it the...

Consideration it deserves.

[JustThinking...]

158. Yes, please do

I could be extremely wrong and this really is too serious of a subject not to consider every aspect. Thanks.

[Zoonart]

127. Today on" instigating crackdown theater".

[Everyman Jackal]

129. Antifa may be called a movement but is made up of so may different political ideals

and each group uses different means from peaceful to violent that it is useless to say you are for them or against them without explaining what they do that makes you for or against them. Some of the groups that use peaceful means I am for. Groups that use violence, that is groups that will attack people without being attacked especially groups that don't even know if the people they are attacking are their enemy I am against. These groups are playing right into the hands of the groups that hate. Why can't people understand that the Antifa movement has members that are really right-wing and are using the Antifa to show people that the liberals and left-wing are actually the violent people and the movement needs to be put down.

[JustThinking...]

131. Agent provocateur

[Everyman Jackal]

132. Used by Nixon's campaign.

CREEP used them in the 1972 Nixon campaign.

[JustThinking...]

136. occupy had their share also.

[bongo boy]

139. This Milkshake Kills Fascists

[GP6971]

140. What does that even mean? n/t

[dustyscamp]

147. It's a reference to this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_machine_kills_fascists