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Julian Englis

(2,309 posts)
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 11:38 AM Feb 2019

New York Has Prepared Paul Manafort Charges If Trump Pardons Him

Source: Bloomberg

New York state prosecutors have put together a criminal case against Paul Manafort that they could file quickly if the former chairman of Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign receives a presidential pardon.

New York County District Attorney Cyrus Vance Jr. is ready to file an array of tax and other charges against Manafort, according to two people familiar with the matter, something seen as an insurance policy should the president exercise his power to free the former aide. Skirting laws that protect defendants from being charged twice for the same offense has been one of Vance’s challenges.

Manafort was convicted of eight felonies, pleaded guilty to two more and is scheduled to be sentenced next month for those federal crimes. Prosecutors working for Special Counsel Robert Mueller have recommended as long as 24 years, a virtual life sentence, for the 69-year-old political consultant.

The president, who has bemoaned Manafort’s treatment at the hands of Mueller, said in November that he has not ruled out a pardon. He has frequently talked of his broad pardon power, possibly extending even to himself, and acted to liberate two political allies previously.

Read more: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/new-york-is-said-to-prep-manafort-charges-if-trump-pardons-him



The article says the charges avoid New York's double jeopardy laws.
36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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New York Has Prepared Paul Manafort Charges If Trump Pardons Him (Original Post) Julian Englis Feb 2019 OP
NY State may well save the day in terms of holding the Trumpsters accountable hlthe2b Feb 2019 #1
What's the secret to avoiding the double-jeopardy trap? lagomorph777 Feb 2019 #2
A. Don't be a fucking criminal like Manafort. mobeau69 Feb 2019 #5
Charge them after the pardon for same offense (like tax fraud). louis c Feb 2019 #7
I should have asked more clearly: How does Vance avoid being blocked by that NYS law? lagomorph777 Feb 2019 #9
Vance can avoid the double jeopody law by charging after pardon... louis c Feb 2019 #11
That's not exactly true. If it were the issue with the New York law would never have come up. n/t PoliticAverse Feb 2019 #18
A pardon is forgiveness for the crime, but it does not erase it tinrobot Feb 2019 #31
Try this article Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2019 #14
Very good! (1) Cooperate with Mueller on prosecutions (2) Distinguish State from Federal crimes lagomorph777 Feb 2019 #24
One way could be to charge him with crimes that the feds declined to pursue as cstanleytech Feb 2019 #26
New York is one of few states that consider federal charges when protecting the defendant against.. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2019 #10
Charge Manafort with a different crime. Note that federal tax evasion and state tax evasion are PoliticAverse Feb 2019 #20
Charging different crimes leftynyc Feb 2019 #21
Cyrus Vance let Junior & Ivanka skate after getting a campaign contribution, also Harvey Weinstein, RockRaven Feb 2019 #3
Yes NewJeffCT Feb 2019 #22
That's precisely WHY he's doing this leftynyc Feb 2019 #23
Whatup, Paulie, ya Leghorn21 Feb 2019 #4
There is no income tax in Florida louis c Feb 2019 #8
Thank you, louis- nt Leghorn21 Feb 2019 #13
They were discussing this on Bloomberg this morning indicating that NY has to proceed carefully to still_one Feb 2019 #6
media hype..... getagrip_already Feb 2019 #12
It wasn't click bait, it was on Bloomberg network, and he wasn't trying to create a "horse race". still_one Feb 2019 #15
But Trump can only pardon federal crimes whether or not the person was actually charged. Cold War Spook Feb 2019 #25
The issue as I understand it is.. getagrip_already Feb 2019 #28
My thought is there are plenty of crimes to go around, nt stopwastingmymoney Feb 2019 #35
One would say an embarrassment of crimes....... getagrip_already Feb 2019 #36
NYS's own constitution forbids double jeopardy prosecutions for the same federal and state crime.. Princess Turandot Feb 2019 #30
Of course no one talks about how inappropriate a presidential pardon is for these crimes elias7 Feb 2019 #16
Kick dalton99a Feb 2019 #17
In other words, NY has our back Maeve Feb 2019 #19
Plus, Mueller had him admit to crimes not charged, which are also state crimes. tableturner Feb 2019 #27
Um, why wouldn't they file the charges regardless? brooklynite Feb 2019 #29
I'd let him go if we could nail the tRUMP family with his help. SayItLoud Feb 2019 #32
Good Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Feb 2019 #33
Weren't we talking about Gamble v The United States a while back? Isn't it on SCOTUS' docket? ancianita Feb 2019 #34
 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
7. Charge them after the pardon for same offense (like tax fraud).
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 11:51 AM
Feb 2019

Although, I don't understand the reasoning. If I fail to declare the proper amount of my income on my Federal Tax Return, that should be a separate crime than doing the same thing on my State Tax Return.

For example, if I cheat you by not paying my feed bill and then cheat your competitor at the same time, those are two separate crimes. Or, if I don't pay my electric bill, it's a separate non-payment than my not paying my gas bill.

I never could understand that law.

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
11. Vance can avoid the double jeopody law by charging after pardon...
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:00 PM
Feb 2019

...a pardon is as if you were never charged with the crime. The state charge will be treated like a first offense after a pardon. The NY law was put in place to prevent a person acquitted of a crime from being charged a second time. A pardon is not an acquittal.

tinrobot

(10,848 posts)
31. A pardon is forgiveness for the crime, but it does not erase it
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 02:15 PM
Feb 2019
...a pardon is as if you were never charged with the crime.

Incorrect. The crime stays on the record, however, the prison time is not served. Joe Arpaio found this out.

Manafort could be charged on crimes not pursued by Mueller, which are many, as well as the ones that were charged but not completed because of the hung jury.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
14. Try this article
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:01 PM
Feb 2019

More at link



A Lone Holdout Juror Actually Made It More Likely That Paul Manafort Will Go to Jail Even if Trump Pardons Him

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/paul-manafort-will-likely-go-to-jail-if-trump-pardons-him-thanks-to-a-lone-holdout-juror.html
Last November, I explained how Mueller’s team seemed to be strategizing a way to outmaneuver Trump’s pardons when they initially brought charges against Manafort. Prosecutors appeared to be holding back some charges for states to bring, just in case Trump pardoned Manafort. Presidential pardons only address federal crimes, which means Manafort could face state charges for the same acts.

Federal double jeopardy law would not be an issue here. The doctrine of dual sovereignty allows the federal and state governments to prosecute the same crimes. The problem is that many states broaden double jeopardy protections to prevent the bringing of state charges after a federal prosecution. I’ve explained in Slate that New York and Pennsylvania have such a rule. It turns out that Virginia and California do, too. But because of some likely combination of prosecutorial skill and luck, Manafort still faces prosecutions in those states, plus perhaps Illinois and others.

Let’s first focus on just the crimes for which Manafort has already been tried. This week, he was convicted of five counts of tax fraud, two counts of bank fraud, and one count of failing to report a foreign bank account. In New York and Virginia, where he held residences, double jeopardy laws prevent him from being charged for the exact same crimes. But state tax fraud is a distinct crime, one that he almost certainly also committed. When one fraudulently hides income from the federal government, one has to hide that same income fraudulently in state tax returns in order to avoid incriminating inconsistencies.

Virginia’s double jeopardy statute bars secondary state prosecutions for committing “the same act” in “violation of both a state and a federal statute.” Filing a state tax return, though, is a separate act from filing a federal return. So filing an unlawful state tax return in Virginia would be separate, prosecutable act from Manafort’s federal filing, one that cannot be pardoned by Trump. The Virginia tax law further covers fraud, and a Virginia return that replicated his federal one would contain the same fraudulent material as his federal return.

Further devastating for Manafort’s pardon hopes, according to Virginia rules of evidence, past convictions can be admissible: “Such evidence is admissible if it tends to prove any relevant fact pertaining to the offense charged, such as where it is relevant to show motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, accident, or if they are part of a common scheme or plan.” So in a Virginia trial against Manafort for tax fraud, these many federal convictions would be admissible and devastating.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
26. One way could be to charge him with crimes that the feds declined to pursue as
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 01:08 PM
Feb 2019

that then leaves open the ability for the state to pursue charges.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
10. New York is one of few states that consider federal charges when protecting the defendant against..
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 11:55 AM
Feb 2019

.. double jeopardy.

So the charges have to be for different crimes to avoid New York’s liberal double jeopardy protections.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
20. Charge Manafort with a different crime. Note that federal tax evasion and state tax evasion are
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:44 PM
Feb 2019

different crimes. A conviction for federal tax evasion doesn't preclude a conviction for state tax evasion as well.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
21. Charging different crimes
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:46 PM
Feb 2019

than the feds did. I think Manafort did that with several of his "scalps". He knew he was dealing with a disgusting degenerate likely to pardon anyone who supported him and wanted to avoid double jeopardy laws. Why NY hasn't changed that law yet is a mystery.

RockRaven

(14,784 posts)
3. Cyrus Vance let Junior & Ivanka skate after getting a campaign contribution, also Harvey Weinstein,
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 11:47 AM
Feb 2019

you can't trust him to do jack squat. I hope someone else in New York is acting as a backstop to this alleged Cy Vance backstop.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
23. That's precisely WHY he's doing this
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:47 PM
Feb 2019

He knows he's under the spotlight and being investigated for his non-prosecutions.

Leghorn21

(13,520 posts)
4. Whatup, Paulie, ya
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 11:47 AM
Feb 2019


I’m too lazy to look, but it seems to me, and I know nothing, that New Jersey and maybe Florida would have issues with Manafort’s tax filings (or lack thereof)...

At any rate, thanks Cyrus Vance Jr

still_one

(91,965 posts)
6. They were discussing this on Bloomberg this morning indicating that NY has to proceed carefully to
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 11:49 AM
Feb 2019

avoid double jeopardy


getagrip_already

(14,250 posts)
12. media hype.....
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:00 PM
Feb 2019

Paulie was charged on a fairy narrow set of charges mostly dealing with his overseas activities. Muehler knows NY has that law in place and arranged his charges to leave room for NY to act.

Remember, NY law only applies to actual federal charges. It doesn't matter the feds had evidence and could have made other charges, double jeopardy only applies to what is charged.

This is just the talking heads creating click bait. They have to have a horse race. They have to scare people. They have to get people to watch their drivel.

Also, a pardon doesn't get paulies moolah back. That was seized via civil charges which can't be pardoned. That money is gone forever.

Of course, the supreme court can upset this apple cart. If they rule double jeopardy exists for ANY pardoned crime, not just crimes charged, then NY can never bring charges against someone trump pardons. They have a case before them right now they could use to make this real.

still_one

(91,965 posts)
15. It wasn't click bait, it was on Bloomberg network, and he wasn't trying to create a "horse race".
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 12:07 PM
Feb 2019

In fact just the opposite. He indicated NY was very savey on these things, but that is this issue they need to look at so they don't duplicate the federal charges, that's all


 

Cold War Spook

(1,279 posts)
25. But Trump can only pardon federal crimes whether or not the person was actually charged.
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 01:03 PM
Feb 2019

That should leave all state crimes open to prosecution.

getagrip_already

(14,250 posts)
28. The issue as I understand it is..
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 01:27 PM
Feb 2019

You can't be tried twice for the same "crime". So if you are charged with murder at the federal level, and are acquitted, you can't be charged for murder under NYS law. It's the same crime, just a different jurisdiction (the same person is dead).

The crimes have to be materially different. Since there is no federal law that says you can't break NYS tax law, they couldn't charge you with that. They can charge you for breaking federal tax law, but state taxes are different, and the laws vary. So is that a different crime since it is a different tax entity?

I don't know. But that is the dance muehler and state prosecutors are performing. Muehler no doubt reviewed all the possible charges that he had evidence for and left enough for NYS to prosecute seperate and distinct crimes.

His goal was more to mount enough pressure on the smaller thugs to flip[ and give up info on the bigger thugs, then to maximize harm to the target.

If targets believed they could/would be pardoned and face no other charges, they would all clam up and keep trump happy.

getagrip_already

(14,250 posts)
36. One would say an embarrassment of crimes.......
Sat Feb 23, 2019, 10:49 AM
Feb 2019

You know, for most people, even a single felony charge is a big deal. It means you violated a single, major law and you could spend years in prison. Even if you do something like rob a bank, you might get three or four related charges. But they would all be considered in the same trial because they are tightly related (bank robery, gun possession, evading arrest, resisting arrest, eyc).

It boggles the mind that these guys have literally dozens of separate crimes they can be charged with, in multiple jurisdictions, over many years.

It also boggles the mind these can dismissed by the gop as a witch hunt, or deep state paranoia.

No, they are major crimes. And these guys are career criminals.

Princess Turandot

(4,784 posts)
30. NYS's own constitution forbids double jeopardy prosecutions for the same federal and state crime..
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 01:59 PM
Feb 2019

That's what the question is here.

For example, if a postal worker is murdered whilst delivering the mail, the culprit could theoretically be charged in both federal court for the murder of a federal employee in the course of his work, and in state court, for murdering someone in the state. So if someone is acquitted or convicted/pardoned on the federal charge, it would likely not be possible to try them for murder in NYS court.

Failure to pay one's state/city taxes, and failure to pay federal taxes are different crimes: the feds can't prosecute someone for not paying NYS taxes. It's clear that they can prosecute Manafort in NYS for tax evasion. Depending upon how the laws are written, there may well be other state crimes applicable to him.

Years ago, federal-state double jeopardy issues didn't arise as much because there weren't federal laws against certain crimes, in particular violent felonies. The feds were content to leave prosecutions of those cases to the state courts. But more federal offenses have been added over time.

tableturner

(1,676 posts)
27. Plus, Mueller had him admit to crimes not charged, which are also state crimes.
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 01:20 PM
Feb 2019

That means almost automatic convictions in state courts for those uncharged crimes.

ancianita

(35,813 posts)
34. Weren't we talking about Gamble v The United States a while back? Isn't it on SCOTUS' docket?
Fri Feb 22, 2019, 03:37 PM
Feb 2019

Aren't we overlooking that SCOTUS is about to hear Gamble v The United States, which challenges the dual-sovereignty settled law?

The day after Justice Kennedy's retirement, SCOTUS decided to hear the case, and Orrin Hatch submitted a 44-page amicus brief on the case.

If the dual-sovereignty doctrine were tossed by SCOTUS, as Orrin Hatch wants, then Trump’s pardon could theoretically protect Manafort from state action.

Again, “If Hatch gets his way ... a federal pardon would essentially block a subsequent state-level prosecution.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/09/trump-pardon-orrin-hatch-supreme-court/571285/

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