Pompeo says Alabama woman who joined ISIS cannot return to US

[brooklynite]

Source: The Hill

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declared Wednesday that an Alabama woman will not be allowed to return to the U.S. after traveling to Syria to join ISIS in 2014.

Pompeo said that Hoda Muthana is not a U.S. citizen and does not have any valid visa to come back to America. Muthana has pleaded with the government to let her return to her family, telling The Guardian in an interview published this week that she regrets leaving the U.S. for the terrorist group.

“Ms. Hoda Muthana is not a U.S. citizen and will not be admitted into the United States. She does not have any legal basis, no valid U.S. passport, no right to a passport, nor any visa to travel to the United States. We continue to strongly advise all U.S. citizens not to travel to Syria,” Pompeo said in a statement.

Lawyers for Muthana’s family have told several media outlets she is in fact a citizen, having been born in the U.S.

Read more: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/430808-pompeo-says-alabama-woman-who-left-for-isis-cannot-return-to-us

[NurseJackie]

1. Aw.

[leftynyc]

2. I didn't know she wasn't a citizen

That changes everything. Fuck her.

[leftynyc]

3. OK - I'm officially confused

Not a US citizen but flew from the US to Turkey on what passport? That should be an easy question to answer.

[ripcord]

75. Non citizens can be issues US passports

Non citizen nationals from US possesions.

[leftynyc]

90. Is that the case here?

Honestly, if I were her, I wouldn't come back. She's facing nothing but scorn and prison.

[Scarsdale]

4. The young woman from the UK

who did the same thing has had her citizenship revoked. They will not her back into the country. This American woman has already been married to TWO ISIS fighters, both killed in the war.

[Eugene]

83. In the case of the UK woman, the UK asserts that she is has Bangladeshi citizenship.

Bangladesh disputes that, saying she has never been there nor has she applied for Bangladeshi citizenship. If true, then revoking her UK citizenship would make her stateless, which is unlawful.

As for Hoda Muthana, her lawyer says she is a U.S. citizen by birth, and marrying two ISIS fighters would not change that.

[Blue_Tires]

96. Regardless, she should be assessed as the threat that she is

and not allowed in...

It's pretty damn convenient that all these women who couldn't fly to Syria/Iraq fast enough and start popping out babies are "seeing the light" and claiming they were "brainwashed" now that ISIS is getting wiped off the map...

[zipplewrath]

5. Get their story straight

“Ms. Hoda Muthana is not a U.S. citizen and will not be admitted into the United States. She does not have any legal basis, no valid U.S. passport, no right to a passport, nor any visa to travel to the United States. We continue to strongly advise all U.S. citizens not to travel to Syria,” Pompeo said in a statement.

Man's really gotta get his story straight.

[ginnyinWI]

12. could it be that her u.s. passport is expired?

Then she'd have to renew and might have trouble with that, given her history.

[zipplewrath]

13. Not expired citizenship

They can't claim she isn't a US citizen just because her passport expired. And she has a right to return if she is a citizen. They can demand that she establish that prior to re-entry.

[djg21]

52. Or did she renounce her citizenship?

Under 8 USC § 1481.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

An argument can be made either way. My heart doesn’t bleed for her. If she comes back, she likely would be prosecuted and imprisoned for some time.

[davekriss]

74. Looks like bullet 7 might apply

[Eugene]

84. "...if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction."

[brooklynite]

22. I guessing that at some point she renounced her US Citizenship...

...or claimed whatever citizenship ISIS offered.

[zipplewrath]

44. Pretty hard to do

Technically, you have to do it at a consul or embassy and fill out a form.
They're kinda particular about this because it has to do with taxes and who has to file/pay them.

[brooklynite]

45. Maybe they make exceptions for people who publicly join terrorist groups...

[djg21]

53. A link to statute is in my post above.

One can renounce citizenship by, among other things, (a) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or (2) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer.

The Isis Caliphate arguably could be a foreign state I suppose.

[exboyfil]

101. Works for me

She and her son are not US citizens.

[Javaman]

25. never let that get in the way of a right wing lie, er, talking point. nt

[Blue_Tires]

98. The only way I'd let her back in

was if she gave up a whole lot of A+ intel about the terror squads and who's doing what.

[Calista241]

40. She is the daughter of a diplomat

Diplomats children are one of the few exceptions to birthright citizenship.

There is some controversy though, since there's some debate about when her father ceased being a diplomat, and started just being a resident here in the US.

[zipplewrath]

43. Yup

If she was born when he was a diplomat, it isn't gonna matter that he ceased.

[forklift]

113. That is exactly why she is not a US citizen

She was born in NJ but her father was a Yemeni diplomat at the time.

[Blue_Tires]

94. She did burn her passport, right?

[zipplewrath]

104. And?

That has little to do with whether one is a citizen and it surely isn't sufficient to strip someone of their citizenship.

[Blue_Tires]

105. It's more of a bureaucratic nightmare than anything

but yeah, that whole "Running off to join/fight with ISIS, calling for/cheerleading terrorist attacks against western cities and recruiting other western women to join her" is sufficient grounds to tell her to go kick rocks...

If ISIS had succeeded in knocking Assad out of power, we never would have heard from her again. But instead they rolled the dice, crapped out and now all of a sudden these women who literally went halfway around the world to be nothing more than breeding stock for an army of psychopaths want their pre-ISIS lives back while hoping their governments will let bygones be bygones...

Sadly it doesn't work that way. So I hope she has fun trying to escape Assad's version of 'justice'.

[zipplewrath]

107. Actually no

There is no real constitutional mechanism for stripping people of their natural born citizenship right now. The Trump administration though is working to figure out a way to do it. They've been working around the fringe of this concept already.

[Blue_Tires]

109. Seriously?

This took me 45 seconds to find:


8 U.S. Code § 1481. Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions

(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—

(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4)(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or
(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or
(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.

(June 27, 1952, ch. 477, title III, ch. 3, § 349, 66 Stat. 267; Sept. 3, 1954, ch. 1256, § 2, 68 Stat. 1146; Pub. L. 87–301, § 19, Sept. 26, 1961, 75 Stat. 656; Pub. L. 94–412, title V, § 501(a), Sept. 14, 1976, 90 Stat. 1258; Pub. L. 95–432, §§ 2, 4, Oct. 10, 1978, 92 Stat. 1046; Pub. L. 97–116, § 18(k)(2), (q), Dec. 29, 1981, 95 Stat. 1620, 1621; Pub. L. 99–653, §§ 18, 19, Nov. 14, 1986, 100 Stat. 3658; Pub. L. 100–525, §§ 8(m), (n), 9(hh), Oct. 24, 1988, 102 Stat. 2618, 2622.)


If you want to argue that she should be allowed back to cool her ass off in prison for ten years just to get her mind right, then I'll entertain that discussion... But this whole "get my old life back like nothing ever happened" is a fairy tale with no legal basis...

[marble falls]

6. She is a citizen. Let her come home. How freaking petty can they be towards a person ...

who wasn't even old enough to sign a contract, barely old enough for a license when she made a bad choice. I think that's what get me most - the total mindless meanspiritedness of them all.

[bluestarone]

10. THIS i agree with!!!

[More_Cowbell]

15. She was 20 when she left, old enough to sign a contract

The general age for that is 18.

The citizenship question is tricky. She was born in New Jersey to a parent (father) who *used* to be a diplomat. Ordinarily, children born to people who are in this country as diplomats don't get "born in the United States" citizenship. But there are questions as to whether her father had stopped being a diplomat.

I have mixed feelings. She did a lot of damage while she was with Isis, including posting things on social media. But maybe if she returns and spends a lot of time talking about her story, she might dissuade other young people from joining ISIS.

I do know that I don't trust Mike Pompeo about anything.

[marble falls]

16. OK, she's a native born citizen. She was a young adult. If there's any charges, let her ...

come home and face those charges. We have young men all the time doing the same thing and much worse as mercenaries and military contractors. You can't say that Eric Prince's employees are all on "projects" Washington condones.

What in the world has she really done???????

She posts on social media. Meanwhile we have private companies droning people in countries we aren't in conflict with.

[leftynyc]

39. The definition of treason

is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I think that qualifies here.

[WheelWalker]

77. I agree. Decisions... actions... have consequences.

If you jump from an airplane, don't be surprised when you hit the ground.

[Calista241]

41. Technically, she's the daughter of a Yemeni diplomat

And diplomats are one of the few exceptions to the birthright citizenship policy of the US.

[GlennRuss]

46. She condoned

Terrorism obviously. Have you not seen what those animals do ton innocent people? Some things are not forgivable.

[christx30]

57. I agree. Let her come back.

As soon as she lands on US soil, take away her kid, arrest her, charge her with treason, and let her die of old age in the basement of a super max prison.

[shanny]

80. ...

[iluvtennis]

17. +++ agree. And we lots and f folks here that are members of Nazi

extremist groups. Is Pompeo going to throw them out of the US

[leftynyc]

18. She was 19 when she left

I think you're confusing her with the British woman with the same problem (whose citizenship was revoked today as she also holds citizenship from Bangladesh). She was old enough for college, she was old enough to know hooking up with savages that burn people alive isn't a good idea.

[GulfCoast66]

38. Respectfully disagree. She was and adult when she left.

In addition when ISIS was killing and raping their way thru Syria and Iraq she was in full cheerleader mode encouraging the killing of President Obama and encouraging American Muslims to become terrorist. While being the proud wife of ISIS fighters.

Now that her ass is in a camp and her beloved Caliphate is turned to dust she throws a pity party and whines about wanting to come home.

Marrying a pot smoking,unemployed boyfriend is a bad choice. She chose to move in with and openly support one of the most uncivilized group of killers since Pol Pot.

Fuck her. Wish we could get her kid here though.

[oldsoftie]

61. Sorry, she was loudly preaching murder while she was in league with ISIS.

She may have even killed someone herself.
If the court says shes not a citizen, tough. Stay in Syria and let the Kurds deal with her

[Drahthaardogs]

65. I don't agree

She joined IS IS, who we were at war. Nope. Stay where you are at. So sorry. Actions have consequences.

[Blue_Tires]

95. Fuck that shit...

She's old enough to have a passport and she's old enough to buy her own airfare and she's old enough to fire a rifle. And she wasn't kidnapped like Patty Hearst, she CHOSE to abandon what was a pretty good life for her here... FFS, until her twitter account got suspended she was still cheerleading terror attacks and encouraging other western women to join... How many innocent deaths is she actively or passively responsible for? How many Western women did she help 'recruit' on social media?

[murielm99]

7. I am glad she cannot get back in.

She betrayed her country. I wish some of the repiggies who have and who continue to betray our country were getting the same treatment.

I saw her interview on Nightline. I have no sympathy!

[whathehell]

31. Me too...ISIS is comprised of murdering, sex slaving, psychos

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2019, 05:58 AM - Edit history (1)

At 19 she was old enough to figure that out.

[metalbot]

47. I have no sympathy for this woman

But either we're a nation of laws or we're not. If she's not a US citizen (and there seems to be some question on this point), then clearly we can prohibit her return. If she's a US citizen, then she has a right to return. Now, we could certainly charge her with treason, or we could move to revoke her citizenship on the basis that she joined a foreign military (dubious, but we could try). Either way, the US government needs to follow the law and actually do those things and not make up arbitrary rules of "you married an ISIS fighter and therefore lose your citizenship". There are lots of horrible organizations out there, but we aren't revoking citizenship of women who married men who were in the IRA, or of women who marry concentration camp guards. What makes ISIS special enough to merit a carve out in our law in ways that other cases don't? ISIS barely even registers on the genocidal maniacs scale of the last 100 years.

[RockRaven]

8. Whether or not she is a citizen is THE critical question. And neither Pompeo nor her family

is a trustworthy source, imo, since each have an obvious vested interest in the outcome which outweighs any allegiance they may proclaim to the truth. That said, it should not be hard for a 3rd party (either lawyer or journalist) to establish the truth of the matter.

But Pompeo's statement is fishy. He starts with saying she is not a US citizen, then delineates what rights she does not possess (by virtue of not being a US citizen)... and finishes by reiterating that US citizens should not travel to the place she went to and wants to come back from. Sorry, but that 3rd bit is a non sequitur if in fact she is not a US citizen -- it might be a true and valid statement, but it's got nothing to do with her case *if she isn't a US citizen as he is claiming*. It reads more like a threat to other US citizens that "we'll deny your citizenship too if you do what she did" and as such seems to tip his hand that he's not being honest about her citizenship status.

[former9thward]

50. A U.S. Secretary of State can't advise non-citizens to not travel someplace.

When it comes to foreign travel his jurisdiction is only U.S. citizens. She was not a citizen. U.S. citizens traveling to Syria at this time are simply asking for trouble.

[yaesu]

9. I'm thinking they canceled her passport, revoked her citizenship though there is no mechanism

under federal law that allows the government to strip someone of their citizenship, if they were born in the country. If they are naturalized there is a process that can be used to revoke their citizenship.

[zipplewrath]

14. Renouncing

There is a very specific process to renouncing ones citizenship, but I don't see any evidence she did anything even close to that. And even claiming that it was her actions that renounced it doesn't exactly wash since she was 15 (IIUC) and couldn't actually renounce it at that age.

[catbyte]

32. She was 19, not 15. She's 24 now & left the US in 2014.

[GulfCoast66]

70. Well, maybe there are specific things you have to do.

But seems to me ISIS is not to concerned about the legal necities of our law.

She publicly burned her passport, joined a group as an adult she fully knew was as repressive as any we have ever seen and made videos saying how great it was and exposing Muslim Americans to kill President Obama and commit acts of terrorism.

Now that her ass is in a Kurdish prison camp she plays the pity card and wants to come home.

Fuck her. Democrats have no business being seen as her friend.

[Jake Stern]

78. "Democrats have no business being seen as her friend."

Exactly. The last thing we need is to be seen getting all warm and fuzzy with her. The ads would write themselves.

[zipplewrath]

91. It's a precursor to stripping citizenship

The Trump administration has been looking for ways to strip citizenship from people they consider "anchor babies". They've already been trying to strip people of their citizenship by questioning the validity of their birth certificates. This case will be part of a concerted effort to empower the president to unilaterally strip people of their citizenship without due process.

This woman is willing to be subjected to the federal court system. If it is established that she is in fact a citizen, that should not be stripped without due process. There is little likelyhood that any sentence on any crime would strip a natural born citizen of their citizenship. Supermax is filled with people who have not had their citizenship stripped.

[zooks]

11. This makes no sense since the US is demanding the EU, Canada, Australia take back

all their citizens who went to join ISIS. How can he justify not taking back her when he is demanding other countries to repatriate their IS joiners under the threat that if they don't they'll be released.?????

[leftynyc]

19. Her citizenship is a question

She left Atlanta to fly to Turkey - I want to know what passport she used.

[zooks]

24. Got it. Thx nt

[radical noodle]

20. I don't have much sympathy for her

But I also believe in following the law. It appears the main justification for her not being a citizen is that she was born in the US, but to a diplomat. That would make her ineligible for citizenship at birth.

If she IS a citizen, then couldn't her connections to ISIS be interpreted as giving aid and comfort to enemies of the United States? I'm not a lawyer, so while this seems reasonable to me, it may not be the case at all.

[IronLionZion]

21. Racist asshole should just say ISIS supporters are not welcome back

instead of denying someone was born in the US and a citizen just because of her race

Racism is the solution to every problem, for racists.

[GulfCoast66]

56. Well, maybe that. Or maybe because other things.

Because as an Adult she willing left the US and flew to Syria to support a terrorizing group that she knew full well was doing the following:

-Killing and men an boys over 12 that did not agree with their dark ages religious beliefs.

-raping and passing around women of childbearing age to be raped by their fellow cretins for more rape.

-killed homosexuals in the most gruesome manner.

-established rules for women in their territory that made the Saudis look liberal.

-When fights refused to allow civilians to flee before the battle started.

And then after she was there posted tons on social media claiming how happy she was and encouraged Muslims in the US to kill President Obama and commit terror acts in the US. And was happy to take one husband after another when previous husband was killed.

And now sitting on her ass in a prison camp with her child she still seems to not accept responsibility for her actions.

But yeah, those could not possible reasons even liberals don’t want her back even though some like me have never seen her photo and many Syrians and folks in Yemen are white.

Must be racism. Got it.

[IronLionZion]

64. Then a lot of white supremacists should lose their US citizenship

My entire life people have told me that I'm not a US citizen and it didn't matter that I was born here. It has impacted job applications and security clearance sponsorship and I have been detained by CBP for no reason. You probably had a different experience. You might not think it's a problem if it doesn't affect you.

Deny her entry to the US because of her ISIS support and treason against her country. It's wrong to deny someone's citizenship just because you don't like their race or skin color.

If someone in government power decided that you're from Europe or Africa or somewhere else and not sufficiently American, then you might understand the problem.

[GulfCoast66]

69. I could give a shit about the color of her skin. Don't know here race.

But when you publicly spurn the and burn your passport of US or any Nation and go full in for the shit I posted in my original post, you’ve pretty much made your decision. That’s pretty much renouncing you citizenship regardless of the formal steps your are supposed to take. Because renouncing your citizenship is a real thing.

I’m sorry for what you have experienced but it has nothing to do with this woman’s situation.

There are a shit ton of victims of racism, both conscious and unconscious in this country.

She is not one of them.

[Drahthaardogs]

66. Racism is saying all Arabs are terrorists and can't come in.

ACTUALLY JOINING a terrorist organization and being denied entry isn't racism.

[IronLionZion]

67. I don't care if they deny her entry for joining a terrorist organization

They should say that's the reason. Or charge her with terrorism and lock her up. Whatever.

US citizens should not lose their citizenship just because the administration has a proven history of white supremacy. Revoking citizenship concerns me more than anything else because it personally affects me and my family. You wouldn't think it's a problem if you haven't had to deal with this kind of racism your whole life like I have.

This administration wants a white America. We've seen it in their severe restrictions on legal immigration from "shithole countries" and repeated discrimination of non-whites. CBP has detained many US-born US citizens with the correct documents but wrong skin color.

[Drahthaardogs]

72. I have seen and dealt with racism as well

Growing up in the west where Hispanics are often the target. Probably not as extreme as AA racism in the south, but it exists.

To a different bend, that woman needs to stay where she is. You can't join jihad against our country and then say "just kidding".

I'm not into jingoism, but I do have my limits. She has broached them.

[IronLionZion]

68. Here's a white terrorist who needs to lose his US citizenship

but no one will even think it because he's white

‘I am dreaming of a way to kill almost every last person on earth’: A self-proclaimed white nationalist planned a mass terrorist attack, the government says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/self-proclaimed-white-nationalist-planned-mass-terror-attack-government-says-i-am-dreaming-of-a-way-to-kill-almost-every-last-person-on-earth/2019/02/20/61daf6b8-3544-11e9-af5b-b51b7ff322e9_story.html?utm_term=.1ffa5fa5540c

[Drahthaardogs]

73. Hard to disagree

Although he did not actually defect to a country are war with us and declare fealty to that nation, so it's not exactly the same.

[Jake Stern]

79. Holeeeeeey fuck I just knew someone was going to turn this into a race issue

Not that she joined a terrorist organization that has slaughtered hundreds of thousands by some of the most brutal methods known to man.

Oh no, no, no it's Trump racism! She's a victim of racism, not a terrorist moll.

[IronLionZion]

81. Citizenship has nothing to do with it

deny her entry because she joined a terrorist organization. Or charge her with terrorism and lock her up. They shouldn't just take away citizenship of people they don't like.

[Jake Stern]

85. Uh huh

1. They never said that they had stripped her of her citizenship. Knowing Donnie he would have crowed about a move like that.

2. It's unclear if she even is a citizen. She was born here but to diplomat parents so if they still held diplomatic status as recognized by the US then she is not a citizen.

3. If she is found to be a citizen then a court will likely order her to be repatriated. Then comes the choice she must make: stay in Syria and live in a filthy refugee camp or come back to the US where she will almost certainly face charges and a long stint in federal prison along with being a pariah pretty much everywhere.

And quite frankly she's politically radioactive so Dems need to consider keeping her at arm's length or the ads will write themselves.

[JohnnyRingo]

23. Seems reasonable on the face of it.

How long before Trump tweets something ignorant that gives her cause some sympathy?

[Initech]

27. Probably the next time he has to take a massive shit.

[Jose Garcia]

26. Bring her back and charge her with treason

[The Mouth]

29. "Treason" requires a declaration of war

Hasn't been a case of it since WW2, can't be, by definition.

'Espionage' would require spying or some sort of intelligence gathering (what the Rosenbergs were found guilty of).

[happybird]

58. Could she be charged with sedition?

[Massacure]

60. Treason need not a declaration of war

Treason need only an act of war, not a declaration. Per the U.S. Constitution,

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted

For example, the United States never formally made a declaration of war against the Confederacy (they viewed it as a rebellion and not a sovereign nation), yet convicted people of treason during the Civil War.

In this woman's case, it wouldn't be hard to convince 12 jurors that ISIS is an enemy of the United States, though finding two witnesses to testify about an act of war she committed would probably be quite difficult.

[LongtimeAZDem]

28. The only way she could not be a U.S. citizen is if she officially renounced it; if so,

there should be a record of the act.

[The Mouth]

30. Not if her father was a diplomat

https://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/Print/PolicyManual-Volume7-PartO-Chapter3.html

Foreign diplomats enjoy certain immunities under international law. The spouse and child of a diplomat generally enjoy similar immunities. Children born in the United States to accredited foreign diplomatic officers do not acquire citizenship under the 14th Amendment since they are not “born . . . subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

[LongtimeAZDem]

34. I didn't know that; is that the case here?

[The Mouth]

35. That fact is what everything will turn on

[hueymahl]

33. Citizen or not, she is a traitor

And for those who get pedantically hung up over use of that term, that actually is the correct use, as ISIS is a quasi-state at war with the US. If she is not a citizen, fuck her, go away. If she is, she should be prosecuted.

If she has truly changed like she says she has, then she can do good works over-seas to undue the hate and bigotry she propagated for so many years.

[stonecutter357]

36. good

[Blue_Tires]

37. And nor should she...

[Honeycombe8]

42. If she's not a citizen, she has no right to come here, esp as someone who joined ISIS...

A terrorist group one of whose main goals is to kill Americans. If it's legal to keep her out, I agree with that. She joined a group that wants to kill Americans, then she wants to come and be around Americans in America? That's very dangerous.

She has a passport, I'm sure. Expired or not, her citizenship/birth certificate is indicated on it. So whoever interviewed her could have snapped a photo of it.

If she's a citizen, I don't know what the law is. We've had this happen before. But I don't think the guy wanted to return to America. So whatever the law is on that.

[Eugene]

48. The Latest: Trump takes credit for blocking IS woman from US

Source: Associated Press

The Latest: Trump takes credit for blocking IS woman from US

2 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Latest on the Alabama woman who left home to join the Islamic State group in Syria and now wants to return to the U.S. with her child (all times local):

4:30 p.m.

President Donald Trump is taking credit for the State Department’s announcement Wednesday that an Alabama woman who joined the Islamic State group in Syria will not be allowed to re-enter the U.S.

Trump tweets: “I have instructed Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and he fully agrees, not to allow Hoda Muthana back into the Country!”

Pompeo announced on Wednesday that Muthana won’t be allowed to enter the country with her toddler son because she is not an American citizen, a claim that was challenged by her lawyer.

Muthana is now in a refugee camp in Syria along with others who fled the Islamic State, and says she made a mistake in joining the group.

Pompeo said she has no “legal basis” to claim American citizenship. But her lawyer says the administration’s position is based on a “complicated” interpretation of immigration law.

-snip-

Read more: https://apnews.com/877553b423cc4a61abeb9a0162d17371

[theboss]

49. This concerns me more than anything the Trump Administration has done so far

They have been playing around with the idea of revoking/challenging citizenship for two years now. And they have already caused some damage on the Texas border with this idea.

Now they have the perfect test subject to actually deny someone their citizenship for real.

And they'll hang it around the necks of Democrats who challenge this very dangerous overreach.

[LongtimeAZDem]

51. Exactly; I have no sympathy for the woman, but this smells really bad

[petronius]

62. Me too - I'm far more concerned about the idea of revoking citizenship than I am about

one terrorist sympathizer. If she was a natural-born citizen when she left, and she did not formally renounce it, then she should be able to come back and face the justice system for anything and everything that she did for ISIS. If she was a naturalized citizen when she left, then she should be able to come back and fight the denaturalization process in court (along with any criminal proceedings). And if she was not a citizen when she left, then she should get used to wherever she is.

But if it's the third option, I want the government to demonstrate that fact (not just declare it in a tweet or whatever)...

[Cousin Dupree]

54. Alas, the truth is what Donnie says it is. It's come to this.

[SKKY]

55. I'm genuinely torn by this...

...One part of me wants to take the, "Suck it up buttercup. Sometimes our decisions can have very unfortunate consequences." But then another part of me knows how good ISIS is at recruiting girls just like her, and I feel like the right answer is to allow her back in, and then let her make amends for what she has done. I don't know. You guys decide. I'll push the I believe button on whatever you guys decide.

[happybird]

59. Me, too.

I keep waffling, but coming back to: let her return, but charge her, keep her in custody, and let a jury decide. She'll most likely get several years in prison. Her family can take her kid in.

[SKKY]

71. That seems to be the more "civil" option...

...and I think the one would prove that we are still a country of laws.

[Raine]

63. Good! nt

[rownesheck]

76. Look

her options were Alabama or join Isis. She was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[Eugene]

82. The Latest: Lawyer says woman who joined IS a US citizen

Source: Associated Press

The Latest: Lawyer says woman who joined IS a US citizen

February 20, 2019

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Latest on the Alabama woman who left home to join the Islamic State group in Syria and now wants to return to the U.S. with her child (all times local):

8:55 p.m.

The lawyer for an Alabama woman denied return to the U.S. after joining the Islamic State group in Syria says he has evidence she’s an American citizen.

U.S. officials contend that Hoda Muthana isn’t a citizen and has no legal basis to travel to the U.S.

President Donald Trump says he decided to deny her return and that Secretary of State Mike Pompeo agrees with that decision. Pompeo says Muthana isn’t a citizen and doesn’t have a valid passport.

Her lawyer, Hassan Shibly, released a copy of her birth certificate and a letter from a U.S. official indicating her father was no longer a diplomat when she was born in 1994. Shibly says Muthana had a valid U.S. passport before she joined the militant group in 2014.

-snip-

Read more: https://apnews.com/877553b423cc4a61abeb9a0162d17371

[Jake Stern]

86. Then bring her home and put her on trial for treason

If convicted, toss her into ADX to serve her sentence.

[Eugene]

87. No objection to trying her,

but I wouldn't get my hopes up on ADMAX.

American Taliban John Walker Lindh is at Terre Haute.

[Takket]

88. So I did some reading...

Natural born citizenship cannot be revoked in any way per 14th amendment. Can only be renounced in person.

She should be brought here, tried and locked up.

[dalton99a]

89. "Ms. Muthana's citizenship has not been revoked because she was never a US citizen"

However, a State Department spokesperson said Wednesday evening that Muthana "was not born a U.S. citizen and she has never been a U.S. citizen."
"Ms. Muthana's citizenship has not been revoked because she was never a US citizen," they added.
Under US law Muthana would be a US citizen by nature of her birth in the country, though the State Department could argue that her claim to citizenship is flawed because of the immigration status of her parents at the time of her birth.
The State Department spokesperson said, "There are many reasons that an individual previously issued a passport may subsequently be found ineligible for that passport."
"If it is determined that the bearer was not entitled to the issued passport, the passport may be revoked and/or a renewal application denied," they said.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics/hoda-muthana-state-department/index.html

[Sapient Donkey]

92. She may be an unsympathetic person, but we are a nation of laws supposedly.

It's my understanding that her US citizenship is bit of a mess, but it looks as if it was determined several years ago that she is a birthright citizen. If that's the case, then it's my understanding she is entitled to a trial and to defend herself. That's even in the case if we're talking about stripping her of her US citizenship. Although, I say bring her back and try her as either US citizen or as an enemy combatant (or however that works)

I could be wrong with my understanding of the situation and the law. Please feel free to correct me if so.

[brooklynite]

99. Not clear to me that she's willing to stand trial...

It sounds like she's going with "I'm very sorry and it won't happen again"

[Blue_Tires]

106. Ironically, after actively fighting against it

These ISIS wives all of a sudden LOVE the framework of laws and protections that they initially renounced...

[eissa]

93. Fuck this putrid piece of shit

I wish nothing but the worst for her. Talk to those of us whose families in Syria have had their world shattered because of these genocidal savages. My in-laws are scattered all over the globe, living as refugees at the mercy of any country that will take them. They've lost everything, their once close-knit family torn apart. My sister-in-law in Lebanon hasn't seen her husband or eldest son, who are in Germany, in five years, with no hope of reunification. Another sister-in-law passed away in Australia. Her husband and daughter had to rely on strangers to help bury her, grieving alone with no family or friends to support them. Others are languishing in Turkey and Iraq, with either no funds to escape, or too old to do so. The stress and anguish my husband has gone through as he helplessly watches his family suffer these past seven years has been heart-breaking.

I hope this vile terrorist rots where she is.

[mainer]

97. She was born here. We cannot make her stateless.

She should be repatriated and face the consequences of her actions once she gets back here. If any politician, RW or LW, can strip a citizen of his/her citizenship, we are heading down a dangerous path.

[Devil Child]

100. I'm perfectly fine with Muthana rotting away in a Kurdish prison camp

She made her choices and can now accept the consequences.

[matt819]

102. Losing US citizenship

You can voluntarily renounce US citizenship, though you have to take specific actions to do so.

You can also lose your US citizenship in a number of ways:
-- Becoming a naturalized citizen of another country after age 18.
-- Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18.
-- Accepting a position in the government of another country after age 18, if one has citizenship in, or declared allegiance to, that country.
-- Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer.
-- Being convicted of treason or participating in any attempt to overthrow the U.S. government.

Sounds like a job for a really, really good lawyer.

[zipplewrath]

108. Nope

Becoming a naturalized citizen of another country after age 18.

Nope. There was a supreme court case about this years ago. They can't strip you of your natural born citizenship just for getting a passport (citizenship) from another country.

Formally declaring allegiance to a foreign government after age 18.

Nope.

Joining the military force of another country either (1) in any capacity if that country is engaged in hostilities against the U.S., or (2) as an officer.

Nope, although this can get you in trouble for treason.

Being convicted of treason or participating in any attempt to overthrow the U.S. government.

Don't believe so, although I'd have to research this a bit. From what I've read, there really isn't a constitutional way to strip you of your natural born citizenship. Now NATURALIZED is a whole 'nother deal.

[matt819]

110. So much for USA.gov (nt)

[Calista241]

103. I can see him declaring her an enemy combatant and shipping her to Gitmo. n/t

[metalbot]

111. Good opinion post from Volokh Conspiracy

https://reason.com/volokh/2019/02/26/denaturalizing-natural-born-citizens

(FWIW, Volokh Conspiracy makes for great reading, even if you disagree with the politics of the authors. It's mostly law professors who lean both left and right, and contains generally respectful reasoning about the law).

[KY_EnviroGuy]

112. Sounds as if Trump and Pompeo just made her family's case for her.

See Post No. 48 for details. Neither of those fools have the right to declare anyone a non-citizen. She's either a citizen of the U.S. or Yemen. No one can revoke either citizenship without due process.

I'm struggling to accept the bluster I read here without concern for due legal process. Are we all sworn investigators, police, prosecutors, judges, jurists and executioners, or is this simply trial by internet blog?

I personally have little sympathy for this woman but I do not have any right to declare her persona non grata or guilty of any crime unless she has been investigated, charged as required, tried as appropriate and found guilty in a court of law.

Let's all remember that Trump and a number of his people would be perfectly OK with having the power to declare any number of people guilty of crimes without due legal process, to have people they don't like removed from U.S. soil, to arbitrarily strip children from patents and to declare non-white/non-Christian people as legal less-thans.

Let's also remember we now live in a world where an innocent person suspected of or charged with a crime can have their life ruined by noise on the internet, and vulnerable youth are committing suicide because of social media gossip. We must somehow fight this trend.

Oh, and by the way as a note of irony - Republicans believe corporations are people with full citizen's rights that can do no wrong. That includes a number of them that appear to be involved in criminal behavior overseas every day.

[Bradical79]

114. Will probably up to the courts

My understanding is that it depends on her dad's diplomatic status when she was born?