Here are the Confederate Memorials Getting Removed In US Cities

[Julian Englis]

Source: Bloomberg

(AP) -- Confederate monuments are being removed around the country under pressure from those who say they honor a regime that enslaved African-Americans. The pace has increased, however, in the wake of last weekend's deadly confrontation at a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

A look at monuments that have been removed, covered up or vandalized in recent days:

___

NEW YORK

Plaques honoring Gen. Robert E. Lee were removed from the property of a now-closed Episcopal church in Brooklyn on Wednesday. Gov. Andrew Cuomo also called on the Army to rename two streets at nearby Fort Hamilton that honored Lee and Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson.

The plaques, including one more than a century old, were taken down at St. John's Episcopal Church because they were "offensive to the community," said Bishop Lawrence Provenzano of the Episcopal Diocese of Long Island

Read more: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-17/confederate-monuments-removed-or-vandalized-across-the-us-j6g70owa?

---

The list goes on.

[dalton99a]

1. Good start

[The Mouth]

2. It would be interesting to coorelate these removals

with election results in 2018.

My guess is that doing this is going to strengthen the extremes in both progressive and regressive locales.

I see why people want to do it; personally I'd just modify them to be holding a white flag of surrender, mockery is highly effective, but I wonder what electoral damage they will cause us in areas that are not so liberal as NY...

[calimary]

6. Welcome to DU, The Mouth.

Perhaps. But I think the only way to go with these "monuments" (monuments to WHAT? Losers? Traitors? Racists? Slave-owners? Seditionists? We're supposed to be honoring and celebrating those things?) is to get rid of them.

Or, okay, MOVE them. MOVE them all. To some Museum of the Confederacy if we absolutely must. Let the Southern states fight over who gets that museum. Confine ALL of that hurtful disgraceful shit in one place where those who simply must - can go and genuflect and blather on about the sanctity of their marvelous and memorable "heritage". It can be a "treasury" of the record of the Confederacy and all the trappings and mementos thereof. And anybody can go see it. Pay the admission and get in and suck it all up. It does NOT belong in the public square in any place of "honor." Because if it still is, that intrinsically means it's something to be honored. And what the Confederacy was and tried to do is NOTHING we should be "honoring" - in ANY way.

Heck, why don't we start putting up statues of Charles Manson, then? Or to Timothy McVeigh? Or why not ol' Adolf, himself? Shouldn't that, then, be honored?" To extrapolate out just a little bit, don't mass murderers need love, too? They don't have Hitler statues and monuments up in Germany. I doubt that most thinking people there, people with consciences anyway, regard that individual as someone to be honored or worth of being enshrined as a public monument.

[The Mouth]

10. TO WHAT?

" (monuments to WHAT? Losers? Traitors? Racists? Slave-owners? Seditionists? ..."

All of the above, if you ask me.

Maybe we *should* have made the Germans keep 'Adolph Hitler Strasse'...

I'd prefer to see Gen Lee with a white flag and a plaque that says 'Loser'.

[LanternWaste]

12. I'd prefer to read about Gen Lee in historical texts

"d prefer to see Gen Lee with a white flag and a plaque that says 'Loser'..."

I'd prefer to simply read about Gen Lee in historical texts, rather than be faced with a collective celebration of his life in the form of a monument on the public square.

No doubt, many people would prefer to see bin Laden's stature in NYC with a white flag a plaque that says 'Loser' as well. Yet it's still a pretty absurd idea to do so, yes?

[The Mouth]

14. interesting take.

He didn't surrender, to my knowledge. A statue of him getting shoved out of a helicopter maybe.....
Personally, I think keeping their ignominious defeat in front of them would be better than burying it in textbooks that few will read, but you are probably right, I give up; I think mockery better than removal or burial but anything that deflates the right is OK with me. Personally, I think, in strictly tactical terms, the statue removal is probably not the best issue to prioritize with regards to taking back the House in 2018 but damned if I'm going to even post about it anymore since it seems to be a very emotional issue for so many of my fellow Democrats.

I have only one question- does this particular issue increase, or decrease the chances of retaking the house?

Personal opinion *nothing* else matters, YMMV.

[Blackjackdavey]

37. The mistake

it seems to me, is making this a national issue that is too easy to exploit. It should be left to each individual community, IMO, to decide what they'd like to do with their statues.

With that said however, I am sure this is going to have a negative effect on elections. And with that said, at some point, we have to say, "so what." I feared minority status before and immediately after the election. I have since learned that the fascists are incompetent and incapable of carrying out their dystopian dreams AND the resistance has become galvanized to a point that I have never seen in my lifetime. We are fighting for a better future, complacency gets nothing done. We may be a minority in Washington but we are the majority, we are legion and we are fighting in overwhelming numbers. We should have no fear of doing what's right which is turning out to be much easier when there is nothing to lose.

[The Mouth]

38. Well put

[Hekate]

7. Those statues were erected to "show the black man his place," to remind whites of a "glorious" past

"The South shall rise again" -- wtf do you think that means, exactly, to racists who repeat it?

What possible "electoral damage" can be done to Democrats that has not already been done by the illegitimate presidency of Red Don?

What "extremes" are there among progressives? Do tell. The other side has got guns, assault rifles, and a bellyfull of hate. What have we got? Clergy linking arms, candlelight vigils?

The Nazis and KKK came looking for riots and murder, and they did not succeed. They did not succeed. There were some fights that broke out under extreme provocation, but there was no riot in Charlottesville that day.

Resist! If not now -- when?

[The Mouth]

11. Good points....

Extremes? maybe the wrong word. One person's 'extreme' is someone else's "not enough'; be it a protest march or direct actions. hell if I know, only asking. None of these anywhere near here.

Is anything gained in terms of winning elections, or risked in terms of possibly losing them, that is my *ONLY* question regarding these monuments; do we gain or lose votes? Do we energize our base, or theirs? Is the symbolic purpose served a winner for Democrats, what do the numbers say?

I'm not a passionate person, I'm a numbers geek with regard to politics, I can't actually conceive getting emotional about a statue or any such item as long as we have Andrew Fucking Jackson on our $20, a truly genocidal asshole and nearly everyone has had to handle his damned picture.

[SunSeeker]

28. Andrew Jackson did not go to war with our country to preserve slavery.

Seems to me that being a traitor is a pretty bright line as to whether or not you deserve to be on money or have a statue glorifying you sitting in a public place.

Whether or not this costs Dem votes in the short term, removing them is the right thing to go. Dems must stake out the moral position here.

But I appreciate your concern.

[The Mouth]

32. Yeah, agree

except about the 'short term'... 2018 is pretty crucial.

I mean right thing to do? sure, right thing to make a urgent priority right now? not so sure. Drumpf is vulnerable on other issues with his 'base'; but maybe not on this one; right, wrong- I'm saying attack your enemy where he's weakest and at the right time. OTOH I don't have to look at the damned traitors in *my* town square, thankfully...


and personally hope that prioritizing this issue isn't going to backfire and energize our ideological opponents

[SunSeeker]

33. Your concern is duly noted. nt

[The Mouth]

39. Glad you don't care about 2018

you, know, elections and stuff.

[SunSeeker]

40. Oh but I do care. I think us not staking out a moral position will hurt us more in 2018.

But it is very cute of you to insist you care and I don't. Enjoy your stay.

[The Mouth]

41. I intend to, thanks :-)

I do hope you are right and I am wrong, sincerely.

[billh58]

43. American Nazis, the KKK, and White Supremacists are

the scum of the earth, and those who revere the South's participation in the Civil War are openly idolizing traitors to this country who advocated not only slavery, but the overthrow of our Democracy. These are the same antisocial racists who brought us segregation, bigotry, and "separate but equal."

Comparing traitorous Confederate Generals and leaders to the founders of our country is the height of stupidity and shows just how much these imbeciles hate our way of life -- just like the Islamic terrorists.

We Democrats won the popular vote by millions, and the Russians helped the alt-right with very specific targeted blocs of voters in order to manipulate the electoral college. We have learned from that lesson, and there remains more Democrats than alt-right knuckle draggers, and we will get them to the polls in overwhelming numbers over the next few election cycles. We do not need, or want, the votes of ignorant White Supremacists or Trump's minions.

The Orange Anus-mouth is helping our cause daily, and true Americans are seeing the real face of the racist, bigoted, hate-filled Republican rabid right as they attempt to destroy the social progress we've made over the last few decades.

And as other DUers have said: welcome to DU, and we sincerely appreciate your concern.

[The Mouth]

44. Please show me where *I* did any such comparison.

? My question is merely will prioritizing these statues help or hurt in 2018, instead of talking about voter suppression, walls and healthcare.

If we would have just hung every last reb we wouldn't even be having this problem

If on one else thinks it is such a bad tactical idea in terms of 2018 then fuck it, tear 'em down. knock yourself out.

Personally, I think it is *tactically* a loser in terms of votes, or at least I find myself questioning if it makes sense to fight this battle at this time, but given the long-term highly regarded members who seem to think otherwise I'll fuck off. I'm sure things will go well in New York regarding Lee.


My original post was simply a suggested investigation: I wonder what the correlation between places where statues are removed (or where there is significant controversy around doing so) and places where Democrats either gain or lose elections. My personal opinion is that it won't make much difference in deeply blue or red areas at all, but might not be a great strategy in areas that could go either way, particularly if we have strong arguments to make for our platform in relation to those areas and perhaps the degree to which the impetus towards such removal is (seen as) local or external...

[billh58]

49. Thank you very much

for your concern for the racists.

[Blackjackdavey]

53. Tactics

Doing the right thing is not a tactic. It is just the right thing. Pressing the advantage is a tactic and it is richly called for at the moment. Additionally, if communities decide to remove their own statues that might be a pretty good indication of how they'll vote.

[Hekate]

46. Your last line: well spotted.

This new poster is concerned. So concerned. Very concerned that we Dems might ACT. And that someone, anyone, might be offended that we dare to act. Hmmmm.

[SunSeeker]

50. It never ends. nt

[CrispyQ]

3. COLORADO petition to: Remove Sand Creek Massacres' Architect's Statue from State Capitol

https://www.change.org/p/john-hickenlooper-remove-sand-creek-massacres-architect-s-statue-from-state-capitol?source_location=petition_nav

John Chivington is memorialized with a large statue in front of the State Capitol in Denver. He was responsible for the Sand Creek Massacre. Now is the perfect time to remove the sculpture.

This petition will be delivered to:
Governor
John Hickenlooper

[Orrex]

4. I don't see Pennsylvania listed

To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a Confederate memorial in the state, though I haven't gone out of my way to find them.

Hard to say. Gettysburg is a big deal in PA, but you can't swing a burning cross without hitting a Confederate flag, either.

[kwassa]

18. there are Confederate memorials at Gettysburg, of course ...

and apparently one at McConnellsburg.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_and_memorials_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Pennsylvania

[Orrex]

19. Yeah, but not "Let us revere these titans in perpetuity"-style monuments

Wasn't aware of the one @ McConnellsburg.

Also hadn't thought about street names. Hmm...

[kwassa]

21. This one is a bit much.

at Gettysburg

[Orrex]

22. Oh, puke.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. Sexist too, from the Daughters of the Confederacy no less, barefoot & nipples. . . nt

[flibbitygiblets]

24. I know, looks like guy on the left is attempting a pussy grab

If trump ever gets a statue, I hope it includes that.

[Lisa0825]

5. We have some in Galveston too, where Juneteenth began. nt

[question everything]

8. What do they do with them?

I did not realize that most of them were erected after the civil war.

The Civil War is part of our history, whether we like it or not and I can see a desire, by the confederate states, to at least honor the bravery and sacrifice of soldiers, but the leaders?

It was mentioned that one statue - don't remember where - is of the first leader of the KKK.

[The Mouth]

16. Nathan Bedford Forrest

Brilliant tactician, utter asshole (ordered killed all POC who surrendered), founder of the KKK.

[Lars39]

17. There's also a state park named after him.

[marybourg]

34. Yes. Many were erected long after the Civil War at the dawn of

the Civil Right Era to make a statement as to where their sympathies lie.

[The Mouth]

42. amazing, isn't it?

quite a few during the reign or Woodrow Wilson, a notorious racist, too.

[Hekate]

47. What better time than when black soldiers returned from fighting WWI in Europe on America's ...

...behalf? They needed to be reminded of their "place" in US society, and just who their overlords were here.

So, am I concerned at this point about the delicate fee-fees of modern-day Nazis, KKK, and "alt-right"?

No. No I am not.

[ffr]

9. The Heather Heyer effect.

Here life taken was not in vain.

RIP

[ciaobaby]

13. Keeping these statues because "HISTORY" is bull shit

This argument is making me crazy. Why don't we have monument of blacks hanging from a tree, or being sold at auction into slavery. Because you know "history". It is so obvious that those who support these evil statues want the "white" washed version of history. The brave soldier on a horse. It is just all so racist. People need to wake up. The historical value of these monuments is pure bull shit.

[The Mouth]

15. and interestingly (and I did not know this until recently)

these statues were erected decades AFTER the civil war. Actually during the times of the greatest roll-backs of the rights and status of POC

[Lithos]

27. To be honest

I am very much in favor of having a memorial for each lynching, plaques for each slave market, etc.

Maybe Something like the Stolperstein in Germany

BTW, I think the real crime is the omission of history.

[kwassa]

20. Maryland, four down, two to go.

In addition, the statue of Roger B. Taney, chief justice responsible for Dred Scott, was removed in Baltimore.

Maryland

Monuments

Baltimore:
Confederate Soldiers and Sailors Monument (Spirit of the Confederacy), Mount Royal Avenue. Defaced with red paint August 13, 2017. In 2015, defaced with yellow paint saying "black lives matter".[144] Removed August 16, 2017.[145]

Confederate Women's Monument. Charles Street and University Parkway. Removed August 16, 2017.[145]

Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson Monument. In the northwestern sido of the Wyman Park Dell, Charles Village, opposite the Baltimore Museum of Art, and just south of Homewood Campus of Johns Hopkins University. Removed August 16, 2017.[145]

Easton: "Talbot Boys" monument. Talbot County Courthouse.[146]

Ellicot City: Confederate Memorial

Rockville: Confederate Monument. The monument was removed in July 2017 from its original location outside the Rockville Court House to private land. Date Installed or Dedicated: January 1, 1913.[147]

[Calista241]

25. I don't understand why Taney had a statue to begin with, or why he's considered "confederate"

Taney was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court well before the civil war.

He was from Maryland, which didn't secede, and he stayed a part of the Union government during the Civil War. He even administered he oath of office to Abraham Lincoln.

His sole claim to fame was authoring the horrendous Dred Scott decision.

[shanny]

29. "His sole claim to fame was authoring the horrendous Dred Scott decision."

That was kind of a big one.

I don't know when that particular statue went up, but that seems relevant...and so is how many statues of other Chief Justices dot the landscape....

[Lithos]

30. Banality of Evil

His decision legitimized the second class nature of Blacks in the eyes of Government. I.e. it made Slavery the law of the land.

[kwassa]

31. He was chief justice for a long time. Not confederate, but extremely racist.

The WaPo has a good article about him in today's paper. There was quite an argument about adding his bust to the Capitol statuary back in the 1860s.

The issue to be decided before the Supreme Court was whether Scott, who had spent time in a free state and free territory, should remain enslaved or be set free.

“The question is simply this,” the Supreme Court Justice Taney wrote, “Can a negro, whose ancestors were imported into this country, and sold as slaves, become a member of the political community formed and brought into existence by the Constitution of the United States, and as such become entitled to all the rights, and privileges and immunities, guaranteed by the instrument to the citizen? One of which rights is the privilege of suing in a court of the United States in the cases specified in the Constitution.”

In a 7-2 decision against Scott, Taney declared that despite the fact that some states had given black people citizenship, black people were not and could never be citizens of the United States.

When the Constitution was ratified, Taney ruled, black people were “regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations; and so far, inferior, that they had no rights that the white man was bound to respect; and that the negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his own benefit.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/08/16/removing-a-slavery-defenders-statue-roger-b-taney-wrote-one-of-supreme-courts-worst-rulings/?utm_term=.a493f936c047

Maryland was a split state, with many going to fight for the South.

[yuiyoshida]

26. So Trump is pissed about this?

GOOD

[MrModerate]

35. It's time for these memorials to erode away . . .

In hopes of helping heal a division that the country hasn't fully recovered from even 150 years later.

Or maybe a little faster than "erode."

[Delmette2.0]

36. Last night my city commissioners voted to remove our memorial.

Helena Montana will take down the Confederate Fountain erected in 1916. Final destination is yet to be determined, possibly to a museum.

[DeminPennswoods]

45. I'm generally not a fan of

knee-jerk reactions, which a lot of this seems to be. These monuments and memorials have been up for a long time, some over 100 years. I'd venture to guess most people walk/drive past them every day never even paying attention to them, who they are of or what that person did. If the communities want to have a debate about what to do, if anything, about them, that's their choice. Having a referendum at the next election would be my idea.

[Hekate]

48. WWI was a hundred years ago. African American soldiers were returning home and needed reminding...

...of their "place" in America. That message has been front and center since then-- once very explicitly, now subliminally, every single time you walk or drive past. A Glorious White Past, when, just coincidentally, all your forebears were enslaved.

And now it is explicit once again. Enough.

[DeminPennswoods]

51. A bit off point, but you do know that Germans/German Americans

were hated and physically attacked during and after WWI, right?

[Hekate]

54. Sure do. But at what point were Germans dragged here in chains and made hereditary slaves?

It is amazing what you know about US history when you were raised to care about the subject, and to care about facts. We are far from perfect, as a nation, but some of us like to believe we ultimately learn from our mistakes.

[DeminPennswoods]

52. This is an example of the hysteria is currently gripping everyone...

In Pgh, a member of the public arts commission actually wants to remove a statue celebrating Stephen Foster because it also depicts a seated negro next to him playing a banjo.