United CEO apologizes after video of O'Hare passenger dragged from flight goes viral

[brooklynite]

Source: Chicago Tribune

Videos of a United Airlines passenger being forcibly dragged from his seat on a Sunday overbooked flight at O'Hare International Airport have been viewed more than 1 million times, and the airline's CEO on Monday called the incident "an upsetting event to all of us here at United."

"I apologize for having to re-accommodate these customers. Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened," United CEO Oscar Munoz said in a statement Monday. Munoz said the airline is trying to reach the passenger to "further address and resolve this situation."

In videos of the incident aboard a flight bound for Louisville, Ky., a man screams as security officers pull him from his seat. He then falls silent as they drag him by the hands, with his glasses askew and his shirt pulled up over his abdomen, down the aisle. Several passengers yell at the officers. "Oh my God, look at what you did to him," one woman yells.



Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-united-drags-passenger-0411-biz-20170410-story.html

---

"re-accomodate....."

[Renew Deal]

1. Didn't United just police a girls pants?

Isn't it the same airline?

[unblock]

3. yes indeed! and again, united is on firm ground, legally. and yet, the p.r....

[Renew Deal]

18. That's not the kind of "firm ground" I'd like to be on.

[Hortensis]

65. Trump territory.

Seriously, authoritarian wishfulness all over this--a collision between the authoritarian contemptuousness for those who presumably can be pushed around that's having its day in business with the old "the customer's always right" (for good reason). When I first went to work, the mantra was that customers are hard to get and easy to lose. Ignore that and you wouldn't have your job long. No matter the good reasons behind it, that has been set aside in favor of contemptuous abuse.

And it's the same for good employees. I sub some remote editing to a company--and an industry--that created huge problems for itself by regarding its highly skilled employees as slugs that could be switched out for housewives hoping to pick up a little extra fun money, every technical change a pretend excuse to drop remuneration and every possible excuse used to severely penalize normal errors and withhold money earned. That contempt practically stamped on every email--bottom line, take the abuse or leave. At first many of the best of course chose to leave the field, then many, who for often important reasons hoped to hang in until retirement, HAD to leave. It got so bad any kid with a year's general office experience could make as much or more. Now the pendulum's grudgingly, of necessity, swinging the other way, but they still don't pay people with the necessary talents enough to train to enter the field. (The classic economic determinant for setting wages.)

Watching this company's, and other authoritarian companies', stupid, self-destructive policies, I've come to believe authoritarians are incompetent to run a business profitably, much less a nation for the benefits of its people. This company actually hired an entire second tier of editors whose job was to review everything the first tier did (so many good people gone) and tried to split a decent remuneration to pay both less than they could make as sales clerks. That collapsed, of course.

Done ranting, but I never weigh in on industry boards.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. United Breaks Guitars too!

[miyazaki]

138. Guessing they'll never do a cover of "reunited" by peaches and herb.

[7962]

63. That was totally different. Flying free under dress rules.

But everyone is fast to ignore that fact

[unblock]

96. a lot of people oversimplified "everyone" else's views

and a lot of people declared their own views obviously correct and all other views ridiculous.

[7962]

100. Ok, not "everyone". Correct.

But several posters on that story refused to believe anyone who had experience with those flights as to the strict rules involved.
I had never heard of such rules before. But had no reason to doubt they did exist

[chia]

2. The new euphemism: "re-accomodate"

Wow. What a weasel response from United.

[unblock]

4. ... our team is moving "with a sense of urgency". not any actual urgency, just a sense of it.

[7962]

72. OK, now THAT is some funny stuff right there.

[chia]

89. Weasel words, every one of them... nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. I wish tRump / Deplorables would re-accomodate Syrian refugees in the USA. Country is rich enough.nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

19. The new Desolation Row

"All these people that you mention, yes, I know them, they're quite lame
I had to re-accommodate their faces and give them all another name"

[chia]

30. Very nice! Adding:

"You're in the wrong place, my friend, you'd better leave"
Before you're wiping re-accomodated blood off with your sleeve.
"And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go"
Are the remaining passengers weeping, stuck on Desolation Row

[bora13]

85. what's her name?

this equally amazing line from the song reminds me of what's her name.

"Now his nurse, some local loser

She’s in charge of the cyanide hole

And she also keeps the cards that read

“Have Mercy on His Soul”"


seriously, it's been weeks now since she has been
in the news cycle that I can't remember her name.

t-rump aide, blonde, etc, etc.

[chia]

88. You must be thinking of Kellyanne Conway....

(shudder)

[bora13]

83. awesome

from a life-long Dylan fan, the following is an amazing fore-telling of t-rump as well,

"They’re spoonfeeding Casanova

To get him to feel more assured

Then they’ll kill him with self-confidence

After poisoning him with words"

[Abu Pepe]

110. almost like they had done it for those people's benefit

as opposed to something against their will and to their great inconvenience, not to mention the violent assault of the doctor.

[chia]

112. Yep... "here, let me help you re-accomodate..."

"It's just a flesh wound..."

[adigal]

121. He does look tasered - my ex-cop hubby said he sounded like they tasered him

Whose great idea was this? Idiots.

[trof]

117. Yeah. Way weaselily.

[Warpy]

128. "Our team is working hard to re accomodate our Jewish citzens to the Warsaw Ghetto

and from there to Auschwitz, where they will find plenty of opportunities for work"

[SpankMe]

5. Lotta blame to go around, here

The cops and airline were being assholes about the forceful removal. I, personally, don't believe the gentleman was an actual doctor. The nature of his screaming and the apparent disorientation at the end indicates to me that he may have been suffering from some mental/emotional distress.

A the same time, if a cop asks you to leave an airplane - then get up on your own power and leave the fucking airplane even if you're going to miss your own daughter's graduation. These Trump-emboldened, itchy trigger-fingered cops will use any excuse to take you down and then claim they "felt threatened".

[Jimbo101]

16. Agreed - He will now be on a Watch or Do Not Fly list,...

and good luck fighting that -

[cos dem]

23. Why was he already on board?

If he was bumped, the airline should never have allowed him on board the airplane. If there was contention for the seat, neither passenger should have been allowed on board until the question of "who was bumped" gets resolved. The airline's software is too sophisticated now for this situation to have been allowed to happen.

[uppityperson]

26. Well, you see, United can't tell if the plane is overbooked until they seat everyone and then look

for empty seats or see if anyone is left standing outside the plane.
just in case

[pangaia]

130. It wasn't overbooked.

They wanted to make room for 4 UA crew.

[brush]

47. Yep, tne only way United could have handled it any worse was to shoot the guy in his seat

What has happened with these airlines? They used to offer free flights to get people to go for a later flight.

And they'd keep raising the ante until someone finally accepted.

United is going to see a noticeably decline in business after this.

[7962]

67. Delta does it. I book flights that are most likely overbooked for that reason

i fly Delta most times since i use Atlanta. So dont know about Untied's rules.
Last time i took a bump i got a 500 flight credit good for a yr
Almost got one in dec that was 500 on a debit card, a hotel for the night and 2 meal vouchers. But a woman in front of me convinced her husband to do it and they didnt need me. dammit

[cstanleytech]

76. They offered a cash compensation + hotel I thought? As for his flight they were not asking him

to pay more money just to take a later flight so its not like he would have been having to shell out cash for another flight back home.

[lisby]

118. The next flight was 24 hours later. nt

[cstanleytech]

125. Ouch long layover, they should have upped the cash offer for sure. nt

[adigal]

122. My husband thinks they tasered him, which is why he was screaming like that

Plus he looked semi-conscious as they dragged his flaccid body out of the plane.

[cstanleytech]

75. It was a last minute issue if I am reading it correctly and they needed to get some people to

another airport to assist on another flight fast so it became an issue of inconvenience 4 passengers or inconvience 200 or more at the other airport and the odds are they are going to choose the lesser of two evils.
Frankly the guy should have taken the money and asked if they could arrange some flight to get there a bit later maybe with another stop or two if thats what it would take.

[RobinA]

145. Nope

You want a last minute airline ticket you pay the going price like the rest of us. United sold all its tickets on that flight, it needs some seats, it has to buy them back at whatever price the holder of the ticket will take. Capitalism, doncha know. You offer an amount, no takers, you up the amount until someone bites. I guarantee, whatever some holdout would have paid to stay over, it's cheaper than this mess. Dragging paying customers off planes, not so much. I don't care what the "contract" says. Airlines get away with way too much BS that other industries wouldn't even attempt.

[cstanleytech]

163. Neither your opinion or mine for that matter means diddly the courts however who's

Last edited Tue Apr 11, 2017, 06:17 PM - Edit history (1)

opinion does matter largely are ok with contracts.

[LanternWaste]

33. Other than his emotion, what specifically leads you to believe he in fact, not a doctor?

Other than his emotion, what specifically leads you to believe he in fact, not a doctor?

[Beaverhausen]

46. You don't know what happened before the recording starts

This was the end of the incident which I'm reading went on for quite a while.

[adigal]

120. My husband is an ex-cop and says it sounds like they tasered him

That is why he was screaming like he was. Not mental illness. That is why he was totally immobile as they dragged him. And disoriented afterwards.
But let's paint him as mentally ill, shall we?

[Warpy]

129. "Do as you're told and you won't get hurt?"

Uh, no, you'll get hurt if the steroid case cops think you're not complying fast enough.

The quickest way to lose your civil rights is to give them away in the name of "order."

[Tatiana]

133. He may have been tasered, which would explain the erratic behavior towards the end.

It should be easy enough to find out if he is an actual doctor or not.

I think, from his perspective, if he had exited the aircraft, he would have lost his chance to stay on the flight.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

6. Be careful, abusive and unstable airline employees are one of DU's privileged castes

They are not to be criticized of questioned!

[PSPS]

9. LOL. Ain't that the truth!

[LanternWaste]

36. Cool allegation...

Cool allegation. We tell ourselves pretty much anything that validates our biases... even when we lack objective evidence to support that allegation in any meaningful way.

No doubt, your allegations are not to be "criticized or questioned" as well.

[AgadorSparticus]

140. No kidding! What is up with this nonsense? Let's throw shade at the victim.

I see it on the other thread too. Crazy.....

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

142. I'm sure it has something to do with "privilege" of some sort or another

[Honeycombe8]

7. The UA staff acted irresponsibly. But being pulled off was the passenger's fault.

How to Avoid Getting Bumped from a Flight

If you have obligations in your destination city and absolutely cannot afford to be bumped from a flight, arrive as early as possible at the airport, especially if you're taking a popular route. Better yet, check in online before you even leave for the airport. The last passengers to check in for the flight are typically the ones who find themselves bumped involuntarily. If you're at the gate before the majority of the passengers have checked in, your chances of retaining your original reservation are favorable.

U.S. Department of Transportation statistics show that on average, fewer than one of every 10,000 airline passengers is bumped involuntarily. This number often increases over the holidays and other busy travel seasons, but the volunteer system does in fact work very well, and it is unlikely you will be denied boarding on your next trip.

http://www.independenttraveler.com/travel-tips/air-travel/bumping-and-overbooking

Overbooking is a fact of life these days. Before anyone is involuntarily bumped, the airlines ask for volunteers. No one volunteered, apparently, then were horrified that someone was involuntarily bumped?

If the man could not be bumped, he needed to check in earlier than he did, or online from home. He was involuntarily bumpbed probably because he was one of the last to arrive.

Then when told he was being bumped (and why), he wouldn't abide by the decision/rules, forcing his physical removal.

All of this was predictable and caused by someone who wanted someone ELSE to be bumped, instead of himself, despite others getting to the airport before him. And then he causes a scene, screaming and fighting, refusing to be bumped.

Whether airlines should overbook is another discussion. The fact is that they do, and frequent travelers know this. If someone absolutely cannot be bumped, he needs to check in before most of the others.

Prediction, though: The airline will be sued because the man looked physically hurt from the removal. Although I don't see how he could have been knocked unconscious.

The airlines are getting to where they're treating passengers worse and worse, it's true. And passengers are getting to where they behave more and more outrageously and unruly.

I've been bumped before. It happens. They gave me an upgraded seat on a later flight. Inconvenient, but that's the way it is. One thing I did NOT do was stamp my feet, cry and scream and refuse to be bumped. If I had done that, what would I have thought would happen? That they're going to change their mind? That they're going to pull a little old lady off the flight instead of me, and that's fine with me, as long as it's not me?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. If the airline puts you on the plane, that is too late for them to bump you.

Stupid staff at the gate did it all wrong.

It is a gate! Once you are admitted through the gate you are good to go!

The flight was overbooked because United fucked up their staffing rotas and assignments and allocations. They didn't plan far enough ahead and plan for contingencies.

Furthermore, if they "need" to bump passengers to "accommodate" their staff's work assignments, then that staff needs to be there early!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. One of my friends is an ex-regional pilot

She hated to commute because they couldn't get seats blocked off for them, their airline had contracted the entire plane and if they needed those seats they had to buy them back so they would just wait and see if there was available space.

They actively disincentivized planning ahead, she hated everything about the regional airline industry and left to fly corporate as soon as she made Captain.

[sharedvalues]

101. Regional airlines have been more dangerous too. Continental Connection crash

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407

Regional airline operated as Continental Connection. Pilot was underpaid, undertrained, overworked, and did something dumb and crashed the plane. All on board died.

[Honeycombe8]

73. No...that's not too late. There's no law about that.

There are laws about other things, but not that. You are entitled to certain compensation, etc., etc., after being bumped, for example.

I may have missed it. If there's a law out there about that...can you post it for reference?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

99. No law that I know of. Just human decency & way to avoid really bad viral press. nt

[C_U_L8R]

20. No. Overbooking is not a fact.

It's a choice made by the airlines. Don't even try to blame the customer. United fucked up royally and their brand will never recover from beating the shit out of its passengers.

[Raster]

59. Thank you! Overbooking is part of their "business model"....

...and a shitty business model at that. I hope the poor man sues.

I WILL NEVER FLY UNITED AGAIN! And I am a member of United's frequent flier club. Not after that stunt.

FUCK YOU, UNITED!

[BadgerMom]

105. Absolutely!!!!

I cannot believe some people are blaming the passenger! He bought a ticket, got to the gate, and was seated. THEN United needed four seats for another crew. United should have had seats reserved for that crew before they seated these customers. United offered incentives. No one took the incentives. Instead of sweetening the pot until a passenger agreed, they held a lottery! WT actual F! I don't give a damn what United's legal defense is because it's pr defense is non-existent. The customer did everything right until he was told to vacate a paid seat against his will. Sorry, apologists. United is in the wrong.

[FakeNoose]

141. Not to mention the lawsuits over this

If the passenger who got evicted really is a doctor, you can bet there will be lawsuits over this.
I'm sure this guy is hearing from lawyers who can't wait to get in on this. It will be all over the news, I'm sure.

I have no sympathy for United or any other airline, but this CEO might as well resign right now.
He is so screwed.

Just sayin'

[Renew Deal]

21. Why couldn't they leave the people without seats off the flight?

They admitted him to the plane.

[randome]

31. They were United employees needed elsewhere.

It's only speculation but there was a series of cascading delays and cancellations in the region so United perhaps had some urgency to alleviate the situation.

Just speculation, as I said.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[Renew Deal]

40. You're right

I read that after I posted. It's shameful. Put their people on a train and leave the customers alone.

[randome]

41. It may have been a Catch-22 situation, though.

Without the staff getting to where they were needed, there could have been MORE outraged customers all over the region. Again, that's speculation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[lakercub]

51. Maybe

but it's hard to believe a giant corporation with all the partnerships and everything else United has can't figure out a better way than this. In fact it's impossible to believe. Even if they have to get help from a rival at their own expense, it would be preferable to this.

[cstanleytech]

77. Its a somewhat different situation if its pilots they needed and the pilots are at other airports.

Yes, its a big company its not like a normal company where most everyone is based at its HQs and if someone calls in sick or something someone else right at the HQs can just fill in.
Yea they could have other pilots of their own already nearby at the other airport but if those pilots have reached their flying hours limit they wont be allowed to fly again until they have rested because a tired pilot can = crashed airplane which could then = hundreds dead and for some odd reason airlines tend to frown up that sort of thing.

[RobinA]

147. All They Had To Do

was make a good enough offer that people would be willing to get bumped. I say this as a person who took a $450 voucher, free meals, and a night at the Colorado Springs Sheraton to wait a day. I had the luxury of doing so then, wouldn't today, but I might find the luxury for, say an $800 voucher. There's people on any flight who would accept decent airline credit to stay over.

[colorado_ufo]

135. Wait - don't they OWN a whole damn airline?

Maybe they could get another plane? CHARTER a flight with a private carrier? Whatever?

[randome]

143. I want to know that, too. Maybe nothing else was available?

[jberryhill]

52. Not possible

The pilot of an aircraft cannot have been awake for more than two hours before the plane takes off.

The FAA requires a minimum ten hour rest period, including eight hours of interrupted sleep, for an aircraft crew.

What this means, as a practical reality, is that you can't spend more than two hours getting a pilot who just woke up into a cockpit.

[Renew Deal]

53. Not the passengers problem

[jberryhill]

54. It is for the passengers on the plane waiting for the crew

[Renew Deal]

61. That's Uniteds problem

Unlike you, I am not OK with dragging paying customers off flights.

[cstanleytech]

79. Do you think United wanted to do this? I kind of doubt it.

But if it comes down to inconveniencing 4 paying passengers vs inconveniencing 200 or more paying passengers United and other airlines are likely to choose the option that inconveniences the fewest number of paying passengers as possible.

[Renew Deal]

91. Yes they wanted it

They chose to drag someone off the plane. They asked for volunteers and didn't get any. They could have found other accommodations for their people.

[cstanleytech]

94. They tried that at first but not enough were interested but they should I will agree with upping the

offer to the max which is in the $1400 area and then they should have randomly picked the people if no one was responding to that.

[Renew Deal]

108. There is a difference between volunteering and compliance

If they wanted to move their staff, they should have planned for it. Paying customers were already in seats. Thankfully for them, that won't be as big of a problem in the future.

[cstanleytech]

113. You can make plans but sometimes even the best plans fall apart and this is probably one of

issues.
I am willing to wager that they would have brought in someone nearer that other airport to fly if they could have but if all of their other pilots have other flights they have to fly or are over their allowed flight hours then they have to do what they have to do to try and get as many of their paying passengers to their destinations on time as possible.
I'm not saying that I dont have any sympathy for the people that had to wait because I do have sympathy for them but it is what it is or atleast until the airlines can replace the pilots with robots.

[Renew Deal]

114. At this point, robots would be an improvement

[jberryhill]

116. "they should have planned for it"

Did they plan the severe weather that cancelled thousands of flights on Thursday?

It takes several days to return the schedule of thousands of people and machines to be where they are supposed to be after an event like that.

One aspect doing that is to be able to move rest-qualified crews to where they need to go.

When there is, say, severe weather in the South, then when the severe weather is over, what they have on their hands are rest-qualified crews in the South and a lot of passengers whose previous flights were cancelled, and non-rest-qualified crews in the North, who have to sit out for ten hours at a time. However, you can only move crews from one place to another in 2 hour windows on short regional flights. There is no magic supply of "infinite crews" that they can draw on in the days after a major flight disruption.

[BadgerMom]

107. +1000

[jberryhill]

115. Where did I say I was okay with dragging anyone off of a flight?

I'm not okay with what they did to this guy.

Paying customers were not going to get where they were going either way. Either an entire planeload of paying customers in Chicago (presumably a flight in which there were remarkably no professionals with commitments to make) or this one.

So, to be clear, you are perfectly okay with paying customers having their flights cancelled entirely, which ends with the same result of people with commitments being unable to keep them.

But some of the suggestions here like "Why not drive the crew to Chicago?" are simply stupid, since there is no way to do that and to meet FAA crew rest requirements. And some of it boils down to "well fuck the (nnn) planeload of passengers in Chicago, who plainly had nothing better to do with their time."

I have been in the situation where a flight was delayed due to mechanical issues, the time window on crew rest expired, and another crew had to be flown in to run the flight. The mechanical issue was resolved pretty quickly, but getting a rest-qualified replacement crew took about eight hours of sitting in an airport terminal. One of the other passengers on the flight had sent his dogs ahead on another flight. He was a serviceman being posted to Germany and was moving there with his wife. Can you imagine sitting in an airline terminal in Philadelphia knowing that your dogs are in Frankfurt, and not knowing when you will be able to pick them up or what, if anything, the cargo crew in Germany was doing with your dogs?

None of that is any justification for what happened to this guy.

But if you actually read the "contract" that people are going on about, the actual contract embodied in your air ticket doesn't promise as much as people think it does.

[cstanleytech]

126. Doesnt the contract essentially equate to they will try their best but if shit happens be prepared?

[jberryhill]

131. Pretty much, yeah

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec25

Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarily

For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.

[cstanleytech]

134. I can understand then why they would bump the economy and coach people first then

because if they did that to the first class and business ones they might be looking at a substantial loss both in potentially losing a high paying client to another airline as well as the extra cash compared to bumping one of the other class of passengers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

153. That doesn't sound right; if a plane takes off at 4pm, that would mean the pilot must be asleep at 2

I think there must be several 'not's or 'un-'s missing from what you wrote for it to make any sense. Your second paragraph also appears unrelated to the weird first and third ones (even when we assume that 'interrupted' should read 'uninterrupted').

[jberryhill]

157. It's about the required rest *before* flying

The flight duty period can be up to 14 hours...

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=13272

Flight duty period. The allowable length of a flight duty period depends on when the pilot’s day begins and the number of flight segments he or she is expected to fly, and ranges from 9-14 hours for single crew operations. The flight duty period begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty, with the intention of conducting a flight and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight. It includes the period of time before a flight or between flights that a pilot is working without an intervening rest period. Flight duty includes deadhead transportation, training in an aircraft or flight simulator, and airport standby or reserve duty if these tasks occur before a flight or between flights without an intervening required rest period.

.....

10-hour minimum rest period.The rule sets a 10-hour minimum rest period prior to the flight duty period, a two-hour increase over the old rules. The new rule also mandates that a pilot must have an opportunity for eight hours of uninterrupted sleep within the 10-hour rest period.


----------

When the schedule is disrupted, then in order to make up for people and equipment in the wrong places, there are crew members who are nearing the end of their duty period, and crew members who are timing out on their rest periods. Either of those events grounds them until another 10 hour rest period has gone by.

[muriel_volestrangler]

158. That all makes sense - "flight duty period" is very different from "flight"

So we can amend your earlier post:

The pilot of an aircraft cannot have been awake for more than twofourteen hours before the plane takes offlands.

The FAA requires a minimum ten hour rest period, including the opportunity for eight hours of uninterrupted sleep, for an aircraft crew.

What this means, as a practical reality, is that you can't spend more than two hours getting a pilot who just woke up into a cockpit.

[jberryhill]

159. No...

If a pilot is getting onto a plane to begin flight duty, that pilot has been awake for a maximum of two hours. If the pilot has been awake for more than two hours, then they are no longer rest qualified to fly (because they can't have had eight hours sleep in the last ten hours if they've been awake for more than two hours).

The last sentence you struck, is correct.

[muriel_volestrangler]

160. No, it doesn't say anything remotely like that. And what you propose would make no sense at all

Starting a flight does not magically make a pilot more alert. If a pilot woke up at 8 am, had a leisurely breakfast and arrival at the airport, and then piloted a plane from 12pm to 4pm, no one would say he was unrested at 12pm - but your rules would. But you are claiming that if he woke at 8am, and rushed to the airport to pilot a plane from 9:55am to 4pm, that would be fine under your rules. It would be ridiculous.

There is nothing in the FAA rules about 'two hours'. It says that a rest period must be at least 10 hours, and have at least 8 hours of sleep time in that (eg rest period 9pm to 7am, with sleep 10pm to 6am). The flight duty period (which does not include time travelling from accommodation, but does include 'deadhead' time travelling between flights) can be up to 14 hours (though if multiple flights or flight legs are involved, or if it starts early or late, that can be reduced to as little as 9 hours). In fact, nothing stops them giving pilots a rest period of longer than 10 hours; the flight duty period only starts when they show up for work. So they can sleep for 8 hours, have 6 hours of further off duty time, and then start the flight duty.

Rules here: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/2120-AJ58-FinalRule.pdf

[RobinA]

146. I'm Sympathetic To This

However, the right way to do this is to make people an offer they can't refuse to be bumped. That way, everybody's happy, the crew gets where it's needed, exiting passenger(s) are doing so of their own free will, and you don't have a video viewed by millions of your goons dragging a man off your airplane.

[randome]

152. Sure, but at what point does it become bribery instead of compensation?

And maybe that's okay but I could see passengers holding out for ever increasing amounts of compensation before leaving. There has to be an upper limit. UA reached that limit. Only then did the invoke the small print clause.

Despite what some are accusing me of, I am not reflexively siding with UA. I'm trying to understand how this situation developed. Objectively.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. There is no science to this

Almost every time I have been bumped it was because I wasn't making a connection, when I checked it, whether I had checked a bag or what my frequent flyer status was didn't even come into it.

[Honeycombe8]

71. It's just part of the deal. Compensation:

COMPENSATION

Compensation varies by how long the passenger will be delayed. If the airline can rebook the passenger and get him to his destination within an hour of his originally scheduled arrival time, no compensation is required.

If the passenger will arrive between one and two hours later than planned -- or between one and four hours for an international flight -- the airline must pay the passenger twice the amount of the one-way fare to his destination, up to $675.

If the passenger will be delayed more than two hours -- or four hours for international flights -- the airline must pay him four times the one-way fare, up to $1,350.

http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2017/04/the_rules_of_bumping_how_airli.html

The article says it's often the cheapest tickets, those checking bags, those who checked in later than the others, who are bumped.

They also ask for volunteers. There are always people who CAN take a later flight; they choose to let you be bumped, instead. There are also those who WANT to be bumped, or don't mind it, for the compensation.

[uppityperson]

32. Overbooking may be a fact, but another fact is the airlines know BEFORE seating passengers if they

are overbooked. I've been bumped before also, both voluntarily and involuntarily. However, it happens before boarding, not after.

The time to bump people is BEFORE they get on the plane, not after. That is the policy.

United fucked up.


"If the man could not be bumped, he needed to check in earlier than he did, or online from home. He was involuntarily bumpbed probably because he was one of the last to arrive. "
Where did you get this from as I've not read it anywhere, rather they were chosen randomly. Or is it simply speculation trying to give blame to this seated passenger for United's error?

[uppityperson]

35. From your linked article "You arrive at the airport, pass through security and head to your gate"

You arrive at the airport, pass through security and head to your gate, only to find that your plane is overbooked. "

Nothing about making it onto the plane but to the gate.

[cab67]

43. overbooking is an unethical practice and should be prohibited.

I do not accept the argument that it's needed to keep ticket prices reasonable.

[hamsterjill]

58. Absolutely!

With today's technology, there is NO excuse for overbooking.

Utterly absurd that this incident happened at all. I'm sure this passenger is going to have his pick of the best attorneys. United will be doing more than apologizing when this is all said and done.

[klook]

104. Hope Gorsuch doesn't end up being the deciding vote on the case,

because we all know where his sympathies would lie.

[hamsterjill]

109. Me, too.

I forget we live in a different world now.

[GeoWilliam750]

136. There are a significant number of no-shows and cancellations for most flights

Bumping passengers happens when significantly fewer than the statistical average cancel or do not show up. If there is no overbooking, airline load factors and revenues would drop sharply.

The concept is sound, but the implementation is not always so.

[hamsterjill]

150. Haven't "no shows" already paid for their ticket?

So how can that be a factor?

[Honeycombe8]

64. That's a different issue. Fact is...each airline has its bumping rules.

Passengers agree to those rules, when they book.

If you don't want to be bumped, check in before most others. Problem solved.

Whether there should be overbooking in the first place is a different issue.

This happens multiple times every day w/o incident. There are thousands of flights every day. Very few bump passengers, but because there are so many flights, it happens multiple times daily. If any passenger had volunteered to be bumped, no incident. If the one being bumped had accepted a later flight, no incident.

This is just a fact of flying in the modern world. One can not like it, but it's the way it is. The difference is how people handle it.

You can sue later in small claims court to get the costs incurred back, or other damages. One thing you DON'T do is scream like a little kid and intentionally make a scene. Because the reason for doing that is to make a scene, not to resolve the situation.

That's just the way I see it. People who travel a lot know this is the deal. Traveling is a pain, is uncomfortable, involves delays, rude and smelly people sometimes, sitting next to blowhards, rule stewards, late flights, cancelled flights, being bumped..anything and everything you can imagine. That's the deal. I used to travel for work. Hated it. But it does no good grumbling and acting badly about everything that goes wrong. It just makes things worse.

Passengers having to sit on an airplane for hours on the runway without restroom privileges? That's real abuse, and I think has been disallowed under law, now. Being bumped because of overbooking? Meh. That's a normal part of flying.

[athena]

137. It sounds like the guy was tasered.

But suppose he wasn't. Suppose he was mentally ill. Are you arguing in favor of physically abusing those who lack the mental capacity to avoid "making a scene"? And why should any passenger be responsible for resolving a problem United created by itself?

Just because you would have behaved a certain way in this situation does not mean others should be punished and physically abused for not behaving in the same way.

[lakercub]

45. No it wasn't...stop blaming victims

Everything I've read says he wasn't bumped because of competing seats. He was bumped for United staff. Which is utterly and completely unacceptable. Further, he was already on the plane as video clearly shows. And it's why he wasn't stopped at the gate, because United had no clue what they were doing. If they need to get staff on planes, they need to figure that out for themselves...at no inconvenience whatsoever to paying passengers.

Everything you posted is fine in most normal situations (although overbooking needs to die a terrible death...if I pay for a service, I expect that service). You said "I've been bumped before, it happens." It should NEVER happen! Never! The only reason it is allowed is pure unadulterated greed. The only situation I can see where it should ever be necessary is to get emergency personnel to a place where no one knew they needed to be (in the case of something like a natural disaster, for example). But overbooking just for the sake of it will never be a good enough excuse, and not blocking out seats on your own flight to support your own personnel is even worse.

The man shares no blame here whatsoever. He may have been intransigent, but he paid and was seated, and was not being moved for anything resembling extraordinary circumstances. Unless he posed a threat, he should have been good to go. As I said earlier, it's United's problem if they can't figure out how to get employees from A to B, not the customers. If anything, United should allot two to four seats per flight ahead of time for transporting staff. If those go unused, give them to standbys.

And let's not even get started on the ham-handed police tactics.

[meadowlander]

123. +1000

He's a 69 year old man who may not have spoken English as a first language. It's not his job to know that he needs to check in online in order to get the seat he paid for.

[athena]

139. Exactly! Beautifully put!

It should NEVER happen! Never! The only reason it is allowed is pure unadulterated greed.

Pretty soon, we'll have people arguing that hotels should be allowed to kick people out of their rooms when someone else comes along and offers more money for the room. Once you let go of the basic principle of treating human beings with fairness, respect and dignity, where do you draw the line?

[7962]

69. You're right, but its sad that you're right

look at all the videos of people pitching a fit over an order of fries being wrong or something silly like that

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

8. They picked on the one Asian guy

Anyone else notice that?

[SpankMe]

12. I wonder - Would he have appologized if there was no video? n/t

[SunSeeker]

17. That's a rhetorical question, right?

We all know the answer is no. As it is, that was pretty piss poor "apology."

[C_U_L8R]

13. Toxic culture starts at the top

Just ask Trump. He's the best at it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

27. United should have gone straight into Chapter 7 in 2002

Instead United was allowed to engage in monopolist behavior while they were under bankruptcy protection for three years.

We now just have three "too big to fail" airlines and only Delta has their shit together.

[SunSeeker]

44. Delta has the highest flight bumping rate. United is second.

Hawaiian Airlines has the least flight bumping.

[SunSeeker]

14. There is no excuse for the brutal, incompetent way they "bumped" this man from the plane.

Especially since they were doing it to make room for their own personnel.

The flight was overbooked and United was looking for 4 volunteers to give up their seat, reportedly “for [United] personnel that needed to be at work the next day.” (Bumping for crew is supported by another passenger’s account as well.) There weren’t any volunteers, so United moved on to bump passengers involuntarily.

What’s unusual is that the flight had already boarded. Two of the passengers United was involuntarily bumping were “an Asian doctor and his wife” however the doctor insisted that he needed to be at the hospital the next day so he refused to get off.

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/10/doctor-involuntarily-denied-boarding-dragged-off-united-flight-returns-bloodied/

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

22. THE ARTICLE SAYS that passengers were offered $800 to voluntarily give up their seat but I wonder if

that's true,if it was actually $800 cash or if it was just a lousy credit for a future flight. If the latter, maybe people have wised up that you cant ever actually USE the credit to go anywhere youd want to go.

I did that once thinking Id be getting an actual trip out of it. The reality was there were so many dates & destinations blocked out that I never did use it - and then it expired after a year. Total waste of time - no way Id ever do that again.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

28. This was on a Sunday night

These people have to be at work in the morning.

[SunSeeker]

38. It was just a lousy VOUCHER. Ever try to use an airline's voucher?

It works like having airline miles. Good luck getting a seat on the flight you want. There are no guarantees. And some vouchers expire. Only 15% of people who volunteer to take such vouchers end up actully using them.

However, if you are involuntarily bumped, they must give you up to $1,300 in cash AND refund your ticket, by law. That way you can book a flight on another airline. But that law doesn't apply if a passenger voluntarily tskes them up on their voucher offer. People are getting smart and refusing these voucher offers. United should have made a better offer that a pissy $800 voucher. It should have offered CASH and a ticket refund, since they would have had to pay that anyway once their voucher offer was refused and they had to bump people involuntarily.

[cab67]

49. I think...

...there's some sort of legalese version of "this voucher not valid for use" somewhere on it.

[haele]

56. Last time I was bumped in 2002, I was offered a first class ticket and hotel stay for my troubles.

Northwest Airlines on Wednesday afternoon. They needed two more seats in Economy for an unaccompanied minor, and announced if anyone could wait overnight to take the 8:15 AM out of Charleston to San Diego, that person would get hotel accommodation and a first class seat the entire way out.

As it was anywhere between a four and a half and a six hour flight depending on how many stops the plane was scheduled for, I jumped at the first class ticket. One of the few times I wasn't exhausted by the time I got home.

They don't do that sort of offer anymore...

Haele

[SunSeeker]

68. They used to not overbook at all. In the early 90s I was able to stretch out across 3 seats.

By the mid 90s that stopped. Then the crowding steadily got worse until the overbooking fiascos of today.

[RobinA]

148. A Friend And I

took a very nice bump from Northwest. Were happy to do it. Got me a trip to Yellowstone and back I wouldn't have otherwise been able to afford. AND a trip back from Colorado Springs in first class.

[cab67]

48. was it $800 each?

or a total of $800 for the group of volunteers?

[7962]

70. Flight credit is supposed to be usable as cash. What airline were you dealing with

[uppityperson]

25. THAT is no apology. k&r

[More_Cowbell]

34. "re-accommodate"? The passengers weren't accommodated the FIRST time

Let alone REaccommodated.

[Va Lefty]

39. Orwellian doublespeak

[Sunlei]

37. These days Airlines constantly overbook.Cover /w increase in layover hours, less direct flights and

and change your flight to another for different reasons, they call it a "maintenance problem" or "crew change" issue.

It's awful traveling by air these days.

Takes a full day just to fly somewhere in USA and it sucks to arrive home at 2AM or have to be at the Airport at 4 or 5AM. Come early so TSA can grope you.

It's the Law now Airlines can't leave passengers waiting in plane for 10-12 hours like they used to (remember those days?)

[Eliot Rosewater]

42. We allow people like Donald Trump to rise to the top of the food chain

as in capitalism and the political chain.

A person of zero human quality, no value to the human race.

Why are we surprised when the same system of capitalism treats humans like animals so they can give a seat to a rich person? Or a person with more points or seniority or whatever the excuse is.

What other reason is one passenger forced off and another allowed on?

Capitalism.

[SunSeeker]

50. This isn't capitalism. This is fascism.

There are no free markets, so true capitalism cannot exist.

This is airlines screwing passengers because they have a monoply on a particular route...i.e. because there is no true competition.

[Eliot Rosewater]

95. Well it is capitalism though, at least the only form we know or have experienced.

My argument is for much more democratic socialism.

[FigTree]

55. Overbooking should be a positive PR tool. Not the opposite.

It will bring more than it will cost. The strategical mistake is to try to make the flight more profitable. The airline has to be profitable, not the flight. Offer the guy a free 1st class trip anywhere Conus. A strategical mistake is always the responsibility of upper-management.

[Sculpin Beauregard]

57. High speed mag lev trains between busy

corridors should be considered. Greener and a nicer trip with higher capacity. Short domestic flights are inefficient.

[exboyfil]

66. You are kidding - right

Not in this country. We are too FREE.

[7962]

74. If only!! nt

[IronLionZion]

82. Trump will get right on it

[mainer]

60. Some apology. No mention of "sorry for beating you bloody?"

Instead he only apologizes for having to "re-accommodate."

[Freethinker65]

62. PR nightmare

[C_U_L8R]

78. Re-accommodate ??

Is that fascist-speak for 'smash his face'???

Dear Mister United CEO-Clown... your customer
has a name. Learn it and use it. You'll probably
be writing it on many large cheques.

[liberalmuse]

80. They spend millions on PR.

They won't be able to undo this fiasco and all those millions have been flushed down the john. All they had to do was maybe sweeten the deal more and more. Someone would have eventually volunteered. The guy could have also walked out of the plane, but that doesn't excuse the airline having him dragged out by jackbooted thugs. What a horrible image. Welcome to Trump's America!

That was a classic non-apology. The guy will sue and they will lose lots of business, and they deserve it. I don't care if overbooking is common practice. You don't treat people like that.

[spooky3]

103. totally agree

[IronLionZion]

81. Why was he seated on the plane? Why issue him a boarding pass?

There were many screw-ups along the way before it got violent. United is clearly at fault here and should do more to prevent this from happening again. It shouldn't have gotten this far.

Did they issue two people boarding passes for his seat? What the hell happened?

[OKNancy]

87. because the flight was NOT overbooked...

It was full and then they decided to kick people off for their employees

[IronLionZion]

90. Which should have happened before he even got the boarding pass

It should not have gotten this far

[OKNancy]

98. exactly

[pangaia]

84. What I would like to know is----

Who the fuck talks like this.. beside obscenely rich CEOs?

"I apologize for having to re-accommodate these customers. Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened,"

Actually, I take that back. The only entities that talk like this are corporations, which are NOT human.

[MosheFeingold]

86. United is horrible

I have little choice to go between family members, so I've been stuck with United for a while.

They are RUDE, lose my luggage, charge my credit card incorrectly, and just generally the worst flying experience I've ever had. In fact, I can't think of a time I've had a good experience with United.

I will take a cab from one airport to another in Houston to take a Southwest flight to get away from United.

I was not surprised, at all, to see that this happened on a United flight.

[pecosbob]

92. So...to 're-accommodate these customers' means draging them from their assigned seats

and beating them? Quit flying myself when the first no-fly lists began...shameful behavior by yet another bad actor corporation with no responsibility whatsoever to the society that pays taxes for the infrastructure that make it's existence possible. Until we start locking up board members instead of slapping their wrists, things will get worse.

[bora13]

93. who was the United employee?

were they an exec?
whoever it was I hope that it was real important to pull some shit like this.

[WinkyDink]

97. Breaking news: "United Airlines is changing its name to Divisive Airlines."

[OrwellwasRight]

161. Good one!

[spooky3]

102. How much will this incident cost United in bad publicity, etc., vs.

the cost of offering enough money (not vouchers) to get volunteers to give up their seats?

My guess is they would have gotten 4 or more volunteers if they pushed the incentive to, say, $2000. $8000 vs. several hundred thousand in lost sales and bad PR and employee/mgt time spent dealing with this....it's a no brainer.

[Hekate]

106. If my sister didn't live 3,000 miles away, I'd avoid flying at all costs. And back when our Mom....

...was having one medical emergency after another the year before she died, driving was also not an option, and Amtrak would take 2 days and a forced overnight in the connecting city. After one disastrous visit to Mom, I got pulled from the line -- and you all know how unpleasant that experience is. I was emotionally distraught but maintaining before I got to the airport, and sobbing by the time TSAssholes got done with me.

The one and only time I got bumped was 30 years ago, and it was a very pleasant experience all told. The flight attendant announced that the plane was fully loaded in every respect, and we all had two choices: 7 passengers could volunteer to be bumped, or we could all wait for three hours while enough cargo was offloaded to make it safe to take off. They offered volunteers the following: first class seats on the next available flight, and vouchers for a round trip good for a year to anywhere in the continental US. I jumped at the chance; my two young kids and I had just been on a very low budget penny pinching visit to the aforementioned sister, and this sounded fantastic. They got rid of 3 passengers at once, and I got next year's vacation subsidized. I really hoped it would happen again.

How hard is that, really? As opposed to today's degrading FU attitude toward paying customers.

[Solly Mack]

111. "re-accommodate" and the "sense" of urgency.

Words are tools, sometimes weapons...

and that statement has been weaponized.

[sarisataka]

119. Did he end his statement with

"And may the odds be ever in your favor"

?

[flying-skeleton]

124. CEO's statement isn't an apology - It's a poor explanation

[dalton99a]

127. "United apologized for the overbooked situation, but not for its treatment of the passenger."

Last edited Mon Apr 10, 2017, 11:40 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/business/united-flight-passenger-dragged.html

[christx30]

132. I wonder who the "lucky" employee that ended up

in this guy's seat. I wonder if that person was getting glares from the other passengers. How awkward was that?

[Mc Mike]

144. "Like Flying in a Cattle Car with Wings" TM. nt

[hatrack]

149. "Upsetting event to all of us here at United" - not good enough, asshole

Resign.

[Botany]

151. " .. the airline is trying to reach the passenger to "further address and resolve this situation."

Doc. to United Airlines, "talk to my lawyers."

[WoonTars]

154. What seems to have been overlooked in this whole mess is that United values its employees more than

...their paying customers...the guy paid for his seat, took his seat, and then was thrown off the plane when UA needed to accommodate their employee transportation.

The manhandling was totally unnecessary, and will hopefully cost the airline millions, but their business model, and their total lack of customer care, has been laid bare for all to see.

[KingCharlemagne]

155. "Final Solution" - nt

[bagelsforbreakfast]

156. United sold a seat that did not exist - FRAUD

And if you don't agree I'll hire United to send a hit team to your home!

[catbyte]

162. WTF didn't they ask for volunteers BEFORE everybody was onboard?!? Storm Trooper tactics.

Twitter is having a field day, lol. My favorite meme so far: