NCAA hands out severe punishment for Penn State
Source: USA Today
NCAA President Mark Emmert made the announcement Monday morning that the program would be hit a four-year postseason ban and a $60 million fine.
In addition, the school will be forced to cut 10 scholarships for this season and 20 scholarships for the following four years.
The school will be forced to vacate all wins from 1998-2011, a total of 112 victories.
The NCAA ruling represented a seminal moment for Emmert, the former University of Washington president whose 20-month tenure has coincided with an unpredictable and turbulent time in college sports.
Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2012-07-23/ncaa-penn-state-punishment-sanctions/56427630/1
I'll bet the taking away of all those wins will piss off those fanatics more than the sixty million. We'll see. This is remarkable--I've never seen anything like this before.
This IS "LBN"--not just a sports story, since it happened as a consequence of malfeasance, corruption, child abuse and assault, etc.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Especially since there seemed to be a desire among Penn State admin to keep a lid on this until Paterno won his record number of games. With the games rescinded, it looks like Bear Bryant reclaims his title.
No doubt the rescinded wins will infuriate the PSU fanatics the most, but it is appropriate, and not something we've heard of or discussed before. A very apt statement on what those years meant for PSU given the admin's absolute refusal to do (or even see!) what was right.
bluedigger
(17,088 posts)Wiki has already been updated to reflect the change. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_football_coaches_with_200_wins
I think they did a good job with the sanctions overall and in treating the athletes fairly.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I don't know why I brain farted to Bear Bryant! Maybe it was the double B thing! Weird, weird stuff.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)bluedigger
(17,088 posts)The whole cover-up was driven by JoePa's megalomaniacal quest for the record. Nothing could be allowed to stop that. The record was a product of poisoned fruit.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)they could have reigned him in . . . if they wanted to
they just wanted it to go away rather than have to deal with it
bluedigger
(17,088 posts)They could and should have stopped it, but JoePa had captured them in his orbit. I hope they pursue criminal charges against them, as they should.
Eddie Haskell
(1,628 posts)I've had it with the DU ... its lynch mob mentality and its postmortem convictions.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Joe Paterno engaged in an active coverup and it has been proven. Jerry Sandusky raped children and it has been proven.
No clue what alternate universe you live in, where Rah-Rah Sports is more important than the safety and security of little kids.
So maybe it's good that you've had it with us--I'm guessing a few of us have had it with you, too, so it's a fair exchange.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)In my best Powers Boothe voice- "well, bye"
http://m.
FarPoint
(12,472 posts)I believe I know every line. Thank you for sharing.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Sam Elliot, and Powers Boothe outweighed the tremendous black hole of suckage that was Bill Paxton. Damn, I hate Bill Paxton, and know it is illogical to feel that way.
FarPoint
(12,472 posts)Heck...the movie was fabulous. I even went to visit Tombstone after seeing the movie. Well, also visited my brother and sister in Tuscon as well..but I really wanted to see Tombstone.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Nice to see that an enabler of child sexual abuse has his defenders.
Good For You!
Amerigo Vespucci
(30,885 posts)A message had to be sent, and it has. Next step: Take Paterno's name off of the fucking library.
E-Z-B
(567 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)The Paterno Family foundation built it. They'd also have to take the names off probably 20,000 volumes in that library. Also, an endowed chair in English.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Beowulf
(761 posts)All the teacher education students, who are mandatory reporters of child abuse, use that library.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)... and the EXTEND the penalties for as long as the prevalent response is one of whining rather than attending to the horror inflicted on children.
If ANYTHING 'proves' the punishment is insufficient it's the reaction of the acolytes of the Church of Football, focusing on pity for the privileged instead of the children who were RAPED.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)That's the problem I'm having. And the lynch mob mentality does exist on here. I've seen very few people attempt to defend Paterno or any of the Administrators, only to be painted with the broad brush of enabling a child predator. All Penn State fans/alums/casual attendees of sporting events are and were not aware of or in any way enablers of Sandusky's actions. But those same persons, who number in the hundreds of thousands, are the ones paying the price. So in a strange sort of way, we should all go back and say yeah, Sadam Hussein may not have attacked us on 9/11, but what the hell, he's a rag head and somebody has to pay and it might as well be him. And it'll make us all feel better about the situation. It's the exact same fucking scenario playing out here. Make someone other than those responsible pay the price. Fire away!
FarPoint
(12,472 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 24, 2012, 12:05 AM - Edit history (1)
Paterno is guilty of covering for Sandusky while he RAPED little boys.... even in the team locker room shower!
Paterno decided that keeping it a dirty little secret for the sake of the Penn State Football Team "business" was priority.... the children were horribly abused...never comforted after the trauma.....that is the freaken crime!
No lynch mob....no defending offended of the first degree.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)you aren't reading the comments like I am. There's no discernment. If you have even so much as a rooting interest in Penn State, you are being punished and cheered on by those who give no shit whether those who committed the crime actually pay or not, just so anything Penn State gets punished. That's a lynch mob.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Penn State hasn't had their issued degrees invalidated, right?
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Have students had the dorms and cafeterias and support services razed?
No?
Then no "innocent" is being punished in anyway. They don't need to watch a football game.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)It is the rabid herd mentality of the Church of Football congregants, "who number in the hundreds of thousands," which empowered Sandusky, abetted by Paterno and PSU administration in their hunger for the Game Day shekels. It's our society in a microcosm, the subordination of everything else to to Almighty Invisible Hand of economics ... knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Do you think, for even a second, that if it were a Professor of English Literature seen buggering and raping children in University facilities, that it would have taken more than a decade to stop it? Or more than even a week???
The "fans" are a part of the problem, whether they, or you, like it or not.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Some small ray of sunshine from the horror.
morningglory
(2,336 posts)letting the dead man take the fall, and go easy on the living parties who may bear guilt. "Now we need to move on..." Nothing to see here. Paterno can not speak for himself. It's all over.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I have a hard time believing Joe never mentioned any of this to his wife.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)And, I never say that. Ever.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)I'm sure no one connected to the NCAA will get a job administering this giant slush fund, er sex abuse charity fund.
I head PSU earns about $110 million from sports each year. 13 x 110 = $1.43 billion earned from 98 to 2011. The fine is 4.2 % or so of the income over this time. Terrible blow for children's rights there, sure.
Bottom line: more greedy folks sucking money out of childrens' games.
Piss on them all.
PSU gets to play football, Big Ten network gets 70 cents per month from everyone with cable is Pennsylvania, the wheel turns, people get rich and nobody cares. Oh sure we all bang on about how bad Sandusky is but in the end too many people need this firehose of money.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Or a pee-wee game.
Or volunteer to help kids with special needs enjoy sports, like the Challenger baseball program.
Short of digging up Paterno and lighting his corpse afire, I think they threaded the needle pretty well, here. A one year ban on football would have been nothing compared to this. Taking away their wins was a stroke of genius, IMO.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)I admit to being back-and-forth on this issue. But at the end of the day, I don't think the NCAA had any choice but to do what it did. I agree that a long overdue, serious discussion about the behemoth that is college sports needs to be had. That said, I think the NCAA as a governing body, also needs to include itself in that discussion.
MADem
(135,425 posts)their cornflakes in a Big Way.
I think it was vicious and delicious justice, actually--much better than forcing them to take a year off.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)The players can go play anywhere they want with no repercussions and players that want to stay there can keep their existing scholarship as long as they make the grades.
What ya REALLY mad about?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)You realize there is a difference between gross revenue and net income? A $1.5 BILLION fine would have impacted a LOT more than just the atheletic arm of Penn State.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)There is an entire system and economy set up on the backs of (almost) free labor of the football players at PSU. Hotels, administrators, every person in the athletics department. people who make the jerseys, folks who sell liquor near campus etc.
I would like to burn the whole thing down (metaphorically). Make all of them have to find real jobs. Make them realize that their lives were built on a lie.
I would have banned the football team for five years. Without football PSU athletics is dead.
The fans should learn to find their heroes elsewhere. Or better yet, realize that they are grown men and women and it is unseemly to have heroes when you are older than 15.
Iggy
(1,418 posts)many are saying what the NCAA doled out is more severe than the death penalty, but given the huge amount of money
in college football, with several coaches at top schools routinely getting multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts, obv
a strong message needs to be sent: ZERO tolerance for letting any sort of criminal run amok under your watch.
I'm not sure what the NCAA did today accomplishes this
I was hoping for a three year minimum death penalty
leveymg
(36,418 posts)That would be most appropriate if there were points shaving or other manipulation of scores going on. With the crimes so widely known for so long how could blackmail be avoided? Seems an irresistible opportunity for organized crime.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The assistant for rape of children, the boss-coach for being an accessory after the fact to rape of children.
Even without an organized crime element, they shoulda been in the lockup, the two of 'em.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Just saying how improbable it seems that the Mob, or someone, didn't move in and blackmail everyone.
MADem
(135,425 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)The sharpies and bookmakers in Vegas have long ears and can smell such opportunities like a thirsty elephant can water.
MADem
(135,425 posts)rumors of abuse before that assistant coach's story about the shower and banging the locker door broke.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)it was simply news to me.
VA and MD certainly dodged a huge bullet, didn't they?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)In '98, Sandusky avoided indictment only because of the County Attorney's negligence in refusing to prosecute. Everyone in the Campus PD, the local cops, and the County Att'y's office would have known. See, Timeline for January 1, 1998: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57321248/cops-sandusky-admitted-to-98-shower-with-boy/ More than a few would have recognized the value of such information.
Word travels.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Both because of legal and moral concerns, and UVA because of their rep.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)both legally and to anyone who would blackmail them. In case you might ask, who would possibly want to blackmail or influence a major college football program?
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Bookies. As well as TV.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)That leaves means to commit the crime. I would argue that Vegas can get to anyone they want.
That, unless someone wants to offer an alternative explanation, presents proof of a criminal act. All that's missing is someone to ask the right questions to obtain evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Judging from the Freeh Report, those issues weren't even explored. Instead, everyone just seems to take the perjured statement of a dead man at face value. Why?
Actually, there are two dead men not talking. Ray Frank Gricar, the County DA who refused to press charges against Sandusky in 1998, disappeared in 2005. He literally got into his car one day, and nobody ever saw him again. They found the car in a parking lot, but not the DA. The Freeh Commission Report doesnt address this; in fact it doesnt even mention Gricar by name. Questions about Gricar are prominent by their omission.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Shame Paterno is not alive to see it.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)During the bowl ban period, the blue chip recruits will go elsewhere. It will take several years after that to rebuild the program.
Did I miss in the article if the NCAA will allow current players to leave the program without the mandatory one-year sitting out period?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)calimary
(81,556 posts)Glad the penalties are this severe. I would have gone harder. Guess I'm just in a serious hard-ass mood today (just ask the gun people).
The Link
(757 posts)As long as remaining eligibility is equal or shorter than the bowl ban.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)And of course, allowing the blue chips to leave the program with no penalty will further drive Penn State into the turf.
Not that I'm happy about any of this. I makes me very sad, first for the victims, but also for Joe. And maybe for me, as well.
Even though I never attended Penn State and am not from Pennsylvania (lived there for a year because of work back in the 1990s), I've always had a great deal of respect and admiration for Joe Pa. I'm a huge college football fan, and when people would go on and on about how corrupt college sports are, I could always point to State College and say, "Yeah but what about Joe? Joe runs a clean program." It makes me very sad to see that a guy who I always admired was not the guy I thought he was.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)goes back to when they were independent.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)There was no real good reason to think he was anything other than an egomaniac.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Particularly those who are up for reelection!
dterrell
(12 posts)Isn't vacating several season's wins much like Mitt retiring retroactively!
CANDO
(2,068 posts)I say there are at least 2 dozen men in such a position at other universities. Too much emphasis and power focused on athletics.
ThoughtCriminal
(14,050 posts)they would make them play in the Independence Bowl every year.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)VWolf
(3,944 posts)For me, it will forever be known by its once ridiculous name:
"The Poulan Weed-Eater Independence Bowl"
derby378
(30,252 posts)Southern Methodist got the "death penalty" - but one could argue that what Penn State has to endure is more like leng tche.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)SMU received the death penalty for having major violations during a period when they were already on probation. Penn State is on probation for five years, any major violations during that period would probably bring about the same result.
I can't speak for the NCAA (particularly when it's philosophy changes with each new administration), but I think they reserve the death penalty for programs that appear to be institutionally incorrigible. That is, we've put you on probation, but it's still "business as usual" with regard to shady dealings.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)children were harmed in a most egregious way and in no way did SMU come close to what happened at PSU. IMO PSU should of had the football program shut down for 1-2 years as part of the penalties.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)The NCAA's charter is to police sports. To make sure they reasonably fair and that the programs are run with a degree of honesty.
What happened at Penn State is a criminal and civil matter that really doesn't involve the football team other than that the perpetrator and enables were in the football program.
If Sandusky was an English Professor and Paterno was Chairman of the English Department, would we be demanding that Penn State no longer offer a degree in English?
MADem
(135,425 posts)They just aren't going to be making any Big Money off of it.
You can be damn sure if the English Department put on a fancy Shakespeare festival every Spring, and competed with other schools for the best Shakespeare festival, and there was a ruling body that oversaw the conduct of these Shakespeare festivals and were authorized to sanction irregularities in the program, that if the English Department at Penn State was full of Shakespeare acting directors and stage managers who raped little kids, that the English Department would surely lose their opportunity to host a Shakespeare festival.
And....since when did Penn State ever offer a DEGREE IN FOOTBALL?
Your example just does not cut it.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)They would fire the people responsible and the show would go on.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The Shakespeare Overseers would strip them of their program and give it to another school.
Shakespeare, though, is more portable than football programs.
Paterno failed in his duty to report, and kept silent for a decade and a half. He was part of the problem.
They can have fun playing the equivalent of high-end intramural ball for the next five or more years.
Panasonic
(2,921 posts)I think a shutdown of the football program for at least two years. Yes I know it will decimiate what is known as PSU, but consider them the 'lean years'.
And a total removal of any Paterno and Paterno-related items from PSU athletics program completely might knock back a year of the DP.
themaguffin
(3,829 posts)gopiscrap
(23,766 posts)the economy arund the campus sucked off of the teat of poisioned fruit. They all turned a blind eye to the stuff that was going on. Nobody ever demonstrated or went on strike etc to force Penn State and the Attorney's to look at this! It wasn't til Paterno got his "record" wins and they were hit with a 2X4 of evidence that anything happened!!! Plus look at the "Paterno" culture in that place..it needs to be eradicated!!!
themaguffin
(3,829 posts)Evasporque
(2,133 posts)The fallout from Sandusky/Paterno has pretty much rendered Penn State football broken...that is just starting to become clear to those closest to Penn State football, the fans, the students and the city
The more I think about it the more I think Penn State will pull the program's plug for a while....expect an announcement from PSU Board of Trustees...the signed consent decree was done on some condition stated or implied...
lunatica
(53,410 posts)They just invalidated more than a decade of legitimate wins for the players. As a person who was sexually molested when I was six years old, I think punishing those who didn't have anything to do with the original crime or the coverup of it is harsh.
This is certainly a message for all those pedophile enablers though. Maybe it will serve a higher purpose.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)this is worse than point shaving or recruit tampering. his problem sanctioned rape and molestation.
paterno rots in hell, and his records are now gone from the ncaa.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Now they're records are forever tainted too. Like I said, it's essential for the criminals to be punished, but why punish those who had nothing, and I mean nothing to do with the crimes?
It's sad that they're added to the victims list now. It's not clean. But of course it may not be able to ever be clean.
These crimes just keep hurting people who had nothing to do with them. Corrupt leadership shouldn't reflect on the little people, but unfortunately it does. That's not true justice.
As a victim myself I would never dream of holding the family or employees of the perpetrator accountable unless they knowingly enabled him. That's not justice. And in a very real way they're victims too.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)unfair, but so is life.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)A lot of players who had no connection whatsoever with this, or with anyone involved (other than Paterno, and that was a coach-player relationship) are being penalized. Those who are guilty are gone from the school. There was no evidence of any systemic wrongdoing that affected play on the field.
Add to that the damage that will be done to State College businesses that rely on games to generate revenue. And current players, who are basically screwed. Colleges have their rosters set for this season. It's not like PSU players can pick up and find someplace else to play at this late date, unless they want to become walk-ons and have to pay for it, or go to a lower-tier school and do the same. They have to get through this season.
I truly don't know what the best answer is, and it is incredible that all this came about because of one sick and twisted man. Many suffer for the actions of one.
This is my NO means diminishing what the victims and their families went through. But I don't see what true good it does to punish those who are innocent, which is what all this is doing.
Springslips
(533 posts)Innocent people get hurt when others are punished all the time. Ask accountants at Arther Anderson, who never worked on the Enron case, if they should have lost their jobs. Murderers go to jail and their innocent children suffer. This is how it works.
When people cover-up crimes to protect a thing, the people should be punished and the thing that was protected must be punished. That way even sacrificing yourself for the thing will not save the thing in the end.
It sad for the innocent indeed, but players can transfer. Their is some hurt to them, but not that much.
roody
(10,849 posts)an education.
Suji to Seoul
(2,035 posts)important, and dribbling a basketball is more important, than an actual education. American Idol taught me that!
MADem
(135,425 posts)and so forth.
Those stats don't go away. The wins that were awarded to the team are vacated, not all the associated statistics that accrue to individuals.
And sorry--they aren't "victims." The victims are the kids who got raped by that Sandusky perv, who was aided in his activities by his cover-up buddy Paterno.
If those players who are out of school aren't in the NFL by now, they never will be. They got their educations. That's the purpose of going to university--to be educated. Playing a foolish little fall game is a sideline. And if it's not regarded as such, it should be.
MADem
(135,425 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)the fact were coaching that team. Had they been brought to justice, it would have been a different crew coaching--and that might have made a difference.
bulloney
(4,113 posts)First, the article says:
The loss of victories means Joe Paterno is no longer major college football's winningest coach. He was fired in November during the scandal after 409 wins at the school. That total is now officially 298. One victory last season came under interim coach Tom Bradley.
But, toward the end, it says:
Paterno's 409 wins and two national titles remain intact, but his statue is gone, his reputation is irreparably scarred and the program he built during a 61-year career, 46 as head coach, is left to deal with harsh NCAA sanctions and the pending rulings of ongoing investigations.
Well, what is it?
The Link
(757 posts)He is now out of the top ten D1 wins.
bluedigger
(17,088 posts)That's all. USA Today isn't the definitive arbiter of the ruling.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and didn't get changed before being published.
The wins are vacated. Paterno's career mark is 298 victories.
Sid
AllyCat
(16,248 posts)(dare I say a corporation?)
Sancho
(9,070 posts)logical, appropriate, and quick justice.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)In my personal opinion.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)...after looking over what the NCAA handed down, I think I'm OK with it. Obviously, the NCAA is not the judicial system, etc. There are cases that are being worked through there and there are many, many penalties to be levied individually or collectively in the future.
I think if you actually watch the NCAA press conference or look at a point by point of what the penalties are, including the NCAA's reservation of potentially more punishments after criminal litigation is completed, they are (IMO) a fairly elegant combination of penalties which hurt things which needed to be hurt and somewhat shielded things (like students and players) which needed to be shielded.
I don't see this as a slap on the wrist. I see this as a highly-tailored rebuke to the disgusting behavior of Penn State leadership in the commission and willful coverup of, let's face it, the most heinous crime.
The only thing I don't think I agree with is the reduction of scholarships from 25 to 15. I think they should have reduced that to 5 or done away with them entirely for some period.
PB
MADem
(135,425 posts)They may have tailored (to continue a theme) the scholarship reduction to ones that have been awarded to freshmen entering this coming fall. Again, why punish the kids for the actions of the adults?
BrendaBrick
(1,296 posts)as per the last paragraph:
"With the NCAA verdict handed down, Penn State still could face further punitive measures. The Department of Justice and U.S. Department of Education are conducting investigations into the school's actions in relation to the scandal."
SomeGuyInEagan
(1,515 posts)There could be more coming from the conference, though certainly nothing compared to what the NCAA has already dealt out.
Historyprof77132
(31 posts)but I don't think this was necessary. Sandusky is in jail, Paterno is dead. Why is the NCAA punishing players, past and future, that had nothing to do with this? Why are they keeping college football players for Penn State from playing in the post season because of a horrible coaching staff. I just think that this is overkill. I agree with some of it, but I think the NCAA went overboard for appearances.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They can even switch schools if they'd like, with no penalties for so doing.
This is not overkill. This is appropriate. Restrained, even.
Historyprof77132
(31 posts)This had nothing to do with what happened on the field. Vacating wins implies cheating and obtaining the wins in an illegitimate fashion. That didn't happen here. The people responsible have been punished, I just think the NCAA did this for appearances.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Historyprof77132
(31 posts)if I spent my college career working my ass off to help a program win only to find out they had to surrender the victories. It may not physically punish them, but it has to carry some bitterness.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)they made.
TEAMS win games. Not individuals. Their individual stats remain intact.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)That's exactly what happened here. The NCAA is sending a clear message.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)rexcat
(3,622 posts)The institution (PSU) knew of this situation from the top down and did nothing about it for years. Children were harmed in an extreme way. The culture of PSU needs to be changed but to ensure change sanctions need to be put in place. Personally I don't think the NCAA went far enough. The football program should have been shut down for 1-2 years IMO along with the other penalties, not only as a warning to PSU but to ever other college athletic program in the country. This type of behavior should not be allowed to stand!
Historyprof77132
(31 posts)I'm just skeptical of it. I'm not a big fan of punishing just for the sake of punishing or to look tough in front of the public.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)and having seen child abuse. It has left an indelible mark on me. There is no punishment great enough for the perpetrators or the institutions who enabled the perpetrators.
Historyprof77132
(31 posts)but I see where you are coming from and don't think I don't understand how disgusting this was.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)it looks like any of the current players on the team can transfer to other without penalty so there is no harm done to them. If they want to stay at PSU they can and will play this year and the next three years after that but won't be playing post-season. The harm done to the boys who were sexually molested can't be undone!
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)Please excuse the graphic imagery but that is the crime we're talking about, here. We're not talking about Sandusky stealing a child's bike and the Penn State leadership and Joe Paterno covering for him while he rides it.
Habitual child rape and institutional coverups of same is a big deal in some parts. In most parts, actually. Maybe not your neck of the woods, but...
Past players aren't penalized, neither are present or future players. The NCAA was very specific about voiding wins for coaching, only, and also made it very clear that present players can jump ship without penalties or stay onboard at Penn and continue a sports scholarship, even if they refuse to play on the football team.
Because the leadership at Penn State (not just the coaching staff) was responsible for intentionally covering up for habitual child rape.
If you really hold those opinions, I think you should explain in more detail, specifically, which penalties you feel were showboating and which were appropriate.
PB
Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #87)
Post removed
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Historyprof77132
(31 posts)defended Paterno nor anyone else who let this happen. I was in favor of letting people walk by and piss on his statue before they removed it.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)CANDO
(2,068 posts)Shut them ALL the FUCK down! Alabama, Ohio State, USC, Notre Dame, Texas. All of them! I attended exactly 3 Penn State games and by your words "entire culture", I am a child rapist enabler. That is exactly where the lynch mob comes into play. It's so goddamned easy hiding behind the lashing out to protect children mantra. It allows you and many others to go all lynch mob and accuse people such as myself of enabling child rape. Where is your shame in that? Shame on you.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)...heinous nature of the crime? Kids were being raped, habitually by Sandusky, and Penn State leadership and Paterno knowingly covered for him.
It's difficult to put down a firewall between the program and the crime when so much of the leadership was involved. 90+ percent of the NCAA's ruling is not about Sandusky, it's about the other supportive actions by institutional players at Penn State, like Paterno.
Paterno and Sandusky weren't the only people involved in this as the Freeh Report shows and as ongoing criminal and civil cases proceeed.
The whole barrel was rotten.
PB
IggleDoer
(1,186 posts)And the administration threw the deceased coach under the bus.
Why aren't they resigning or being fired?
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Civil suits and Federal investigations. Lots of people will be resigning and being fired.
And. Patreno wasn't thrown under the bus. He was guilty as sin.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That whole community, from the ground up, has an unhealthy reverence for their little game. Nuke it. Let the community re-gain some perspective, like, protecting children is more important than having a winning fucking football team.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)... I'm not sure if I would want to bet against their not doing something to violate their probation in the next few years, at which point they'll lose it anyway.
When there's students actually trying to claim that the school got "raped" by the NCAA over this, and when the university's tried to maintain a blackout on coverage of things on campus, their attitudes haven't come close to sufficiently changing yet.
Basically, give it time. They've been given a chance here, but I imagine they'll screw it up.
MADem
(135,425 posts)rexcat
(3,622 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Their team will be full of third rate players, and they will start losing games. They'll have to learn to support a losing team for the sake of school spirit, not because of that whole Foam Finger We're Number One bullshit. The equipment will be less shiny, the amenities less impressive, and the whole effort will be more "old school."
That will be a good thing.
Maybe they can highlight their soccer team, or women's basketball, or some other team that has been neglected over the years.
Locrian
(4,522 posts)But I agree with your post - I think the punishment hits the zealots hard, and keeps a 'token' program that won't be anywhere near it's 'glory days'. Which is a good thing. It's was the whole 'football is god' thing which caused a lot of the cover up.
MADem
(135,425 posts)to be beaten like rented mules by competing teams with better talent and esprit de corps.
It will be a good lesson in both humility and priorities, I think.
I'm surprised at how much I think the NCAA got this right. And since there's a probationary aspect to this punishment, if the school, the boosters, or the team, step out of line, the boom can be lowered anew. They really are operating with a serious ball and chain around their collective ankle!
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)Good post.
Evasporque
(2,133 posts)It may be that PSU (Board of Trustees) will opt to defer the seasons during the bowl ban...
It will be more costly to run a crippled program than shutting it down for four years and rebuilding....
The community will survive and football can return to Penn State with a fresh start and would be welcomed back.
That is honourable thing to do.
liberal N proud
(60,349 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)BrendaBrick
(1,296 posts)ESPN College Football Analyst:
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8191596 (about 5 1/2 minutes)
I especially like his point from about 2:20 - 4:01.
MADem
(135,425 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)He won the Heisman while playing for the University of Michigan, and was a Superbowl MVP.
He's been there.
MADem
(135,425 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)U-Mich does have a big time sports program, but they have very good academics as well.
Not all athletes can make it through the academic program, and that limits Michigan's recruiting. It's not Stanford or Northwestern, but it is like UC Berkley, UCLA, U-Virginia and U-North Carolina. All have had some good teams in football or basketball ( and in Michigan, hockey) over the years, but they have a more difficult time than some big sports universities in putting together consistently a string of championship performances, particularly Berkley.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)amandabeech
(9,893 posts)I'm a proud U-Michigan grad. Loved the place!
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)They are going to suck for the next seven to ten years. There is no way the coach survives this.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Like it or not, the snarkmeisters are going to call Penn State "Pedo State" for quite some time.
Who wants to go to a school with that reputation?
Those NCAA scholarships likely will not go away, they'll just be distributed to other schools.
dballance
(5,756 posts)And it is football that gets that cult more than basketball. The cult extends to the alumni and the community. In this case it became the identity of the community and the school. How many Rhodes Scholars has Penn State produced? How many break-through research discoveries? It is there for education you know. Not really for the grooming of one or two players to get into the NFL at the expense of the other thousands of people who attend the school just to get a degree.
I grew up in a small town and the high school football had the cult worship of the town and the school much like with Penn State. Fortunately the school wasn't making millions off TV coverage so I doubt anything like Sandusky would ever happen there. But it's the cult.
The football team never lacked for anything. New workout equipment, new uniforms, new athletic equipment of any kind. That didn't extend to other groups in the school. I was in the band. Before you go all "you're just a bitter band nerd" let me say yes, I am.
We were the ones selling candles, selling candy bars, selling light bulbs and all manner of crap to raise funds so we could take a trip to march at Disney World or march in parades in other cities.
No football player ever lifted a finger to sell anything to get them any of the stuff they got.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Also, as more and more reports come out about the damage done to youngsters as a consequence of concussion, that has a real and devastating effect on them, even more so in their later years, football is slowly losing its cachet.
Some parents (and kids) are simply saying that the glory isn't worth it.
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7601017/study-impact-kids-football-head-hits-severe-college-games
http://www.doctoroz.com/blog/michael-neely-do/dangers-high-school-football-concussions
unblock
(52,416 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)It's akin to saying they cheated.
And they did.
If Paterno had done the right thing, Sandusky would not have been left to abuse children, and Paterno would not have become an accessory to Sandusky's crimes.
Paterno, instead, engaged in the cover-up of a crime against children, and had he been brought to account for his concealment of these crimes, along with the rapist Sandusky, instead of continuing on and hiding the truth, he would not have been coaching that team--someone else would have.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)But the wins become losses.
nichomachus
(12,754 posts)Alduin
(501 posts)Rambis
(7,774 posts)x
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)As MADem said, the community has to learn some humility by supporting a team that will, definitely after this season, be compiled of young men who have no chance of playing any pro ball. This will be compounded if they are tossed from the Big Ten. Which I think they will be.
A total lack of a program would be like a tooth that's gone -- your tongue keeps poking into the hole. This gives less chance of being martyrs, and I personally think it will hurt Penn football way more than a year or two of death would.
The best part, the genius stroke? Taking Paterno's wins away.
Have you seen "We Are Marshall"? That's what the Nittany Lions will look like in a couple years, but not because most of a team and coaching staff died in a plane crash. Because the team will be full of boys who otherwise wouldn't play, or who would play on so-called "inferior" teams.
Soccer and rugby games are fun to watch. You can even tailgate.
I admit I think "big money" sports have no place at a university. Universities shouldn't be NFL farm leagues. Actually, many programs, like Penn State's, act like they already are NFL teams.
Zyzafyx
(124 posts)It should be eliminated. Entirely. Forever.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)First, I find the idea that athletics dominates so many "institutes of higher learning" to be abhorrent. I think the university system would be vastly better without that aspect.
However... that's the situation at hand. And football is not what abused those kids.
jmowreader
(50,571 posts)I would have kicked Penn State out of the NCAA for ten years, vacated every win Paterno had from the beginning of his career and fined them the total football revenue from the day Sandusky was first observed committing pederasty until the day they canned Joe Paterno.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Yes, some students will have their football careers damaged, though frankly, not much if the schools that compete with Penn are smart. I am sure that many will have offers to transfer as we speak.
However, lest we forget, Colleges are there to TEACH the young people to be better adults. Not just sneakier adults, not just adults that can get a littler more money. Anything less than a complete, uncompromising rebuke of Joe Pa will teach the kids that the object in life is not to get caught. Sadly, there are already enough places where America teaches young people that lesson; it is why Romney is not a complete shut out. We need to start teaching something very, very contrary to United States values; namely, if you do evil in the name of a noble goal, you still do evil.
obamanut2012
(26,165 posts)SomeGuyInEagan
(1,515 posts)Penn State's football program coverup is more an example of what has become American "exceptionalism" and ideals than an oddity. We can do better.
gauguin57
(8,138 posts)Instead, they'll be punishing -- for YEARS -- those who had nothing to do with the Sandusky crimes or coverup.
There are crimes, absolutely. There was a coverup. Absolutely. But the entire former coaching staff is gone, and of the six men implicated in the crimes and coverup: one is dead, one is in jail for life, one has been fired and may face prosecution, two are fired and already facing prosecution and one has been fired and is not facing prosecution, probably because he was the whistleblower (McQueary).
NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE MEN WAS PUNISHED BY THESE SANCTIONS.
Meanwhile, a bunch of student athletes who have committed themselves to a university, and have been practicing for months, have been punished. Sandusky was long gone before they first held a football.
The businesses of State College are going to be hurt economically; I know some of those business owners, and if they'd had an inkling that Sandusky was doing what he was doing, they'd have beaten the crap out of him and dragged him into the police station personally. But they're going to be hurt badly by these sanctions.
And who knows where those fines are going to come from. Will students be hurt by that, academically -- by the loss of scholarships or academic programs or something? Who in the goddamn hell does THAT benefit? If that happens, the NCAA will have REALLY punished the wrong people!
So, if you see some PSU fans are upset, it's not because we don't care about the abused kids (we Penn Staters are probably even more sickened and disgusted by it than outsiders are, because it happened on the campus of OUR alma mater, and involved a coach we thought, for years, was someone else entirely). It's also not because we worship Joe Paterno, or because we think Penn State shouldn't be punished in some way.
It's because the wrong people are being punished, and the right people AREN'T being punished by these sanctions.
In addition, the NCAA is full of crap when it says Penn State's football program ignored its academic mission. A small group of men ignored basic human morality -- BOY DID THEY EVER! -- but the football program DID NOT abandon its academic mission. On the contrary, it has one of the highest (if not THE highest) graduations rates in college football. Academics were always very important to the football program -- that was the whole point of Joe Paterno's "Grand Experiment" -- to emphasize academics along with athletics.
I'm sick of people accusing Penn Staters of ignoring the plight of those abused kids, just because we feel justice may not have been served in the appropriate way through these particular sanctions.
Penn State will survive this, and rise from the ashes someday better than ever. It is, was, and always shall be a great place to get an education. And, maybe, someday, it'll have a good football team again. Hopefully, the football program will continue to emphasize academics the way Paterno did.
The culture needed to change, but THAT PART of the culture SHOULDN'T change.