Mormons busted for luring Mexican kids with food to baptize them without parents’ permission

[Judi Lynn]

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2016, 12:02 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: Raw Story

Mormons busted for luring Mexican kids with food to baptize them without parents’ permission

Sarah K. Burris
12 Jun 2016 at 19:36 ET

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or Mormons, have been detained in Anáhuac, Chihuahua, Mexico after residents contacted police expressing outrage when four LDS missionaries tried to baptize children without the consent of their parents.

The Salt Lake City Tribune reports that the four men were from other states in Mexico and aimed to baptize three brothers that were 9 and 11-years old without parental consent.

The boys’ father, Estrada Ruiz, said that the missionaries promised the boys he would give them food if they came to the church. They were then asked to change into baptismal clothing. That’s when boys became afraid and left to tell their parents what happened. The father contacted police and police arrested the men.

The local church told the children’s father that the missionaries clearly failed to communicate with church leaders about the baptism and that all baptisms of children require parental consent. The church also informed Ruiz that the missionaries would be removed from the area.






Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/mormons-busted-for-luring-mexican-kids-with-food-and-then-baptizing-them-without-parents-permission/

[truthisfreedom]

1. Freaks. Feed the hungry.

Don't convert them to your imaginary cloud being belief.

[MisterFred]

23. I'm not a Mormon and I don't like the church.

That said, the church does use a small part of its vast wealth on charity programs. And unlike most churches, isn't a stickler at making sure their logo is on the aid.

I'm quite confident that mission is going to see some people summarily sent home for being counter-productive.

[left-of-center2012]

2. Where you're supposed to put the 'article title' ..

Today's hint:
Where you're supposed to put the 'article title' , you should put:
"Mormons busted for luring Mexican kids with food to baptize them without parents’ permission"

[AntiBank]

3. LOL @ " Today's hint:"

[left-of-center2012]

11. Looks like she got the "hint"

One step at a time.
One step at a time.

[No Vested Interest]

4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Mormons "baptize" dead people

without their permission or the permission of their descendants?

[Judi Lynn]

5. I think I've heard that! Odd idea, isn't it? I think someone really blew up when they learned

their loved one was given their special baptism whammy and could end up mormonized on planet Mormon in the afterlife!

Sounds like a lot of people have far too much time on their hands, doesn't it?

They could go to their homes and help the parents plant corn, beans, rice, etc., but nooooooo, they lure their children off and baptize them, instead.

[center]

They should try to re-baptize Brother Theodore!

Baptize this! [/center]

[Moonwalk]

6. Yes, they did Baptize those already dead, and it got them into a lot of trouble....

...especially as it seemed they were baptizing the dead of other religions (like Jews and such), often without the permission of families of said who took exception to this.

This, by the way, is why Mormons are so deeply into ancestry, have already done a huge amount of it, and why one of the biggest website helping people find their ancestors is, I believe Mormon run. Mormons believe that it's very important for everyone—i.e. your entire family for generations back--to be together in heaven. But no one gets into Mormon heaven if they weren't baptized. However, as Mormonism is not an old religion, that creates a quandary. How could your ancestors have been baptized before the religion even existed? (This is not an unfamiliar question. Certain Christian regions that also require believe in Christ/baptism to enter heaven have also asked: how can pre-Christians be sent to hell for lack of belief/baptism if they couldn't have been baptized into Christ, having lived and died before his arrival on earth?)

Mormons solve this problem by allowing posthumous baptismal. So, it is the duty of good Mormons to do some digging into your family history and give their dead ancestors the chance of going to heaven by Momon-izing them. You can see why they'd view this as deeply important. Because otherwise, the ancestors can't get into heaven. It is a spiritual good deed.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Amazing! Never did have a grasp of their rationale for it.

You'd like to think if there were anything as simplistic as that, the higher intelligences in the universe would have already covered details like that.

It would be pretty great, if there were an after life, if it turned out to be a little more interesting than an enormous gathering, like a helluva picnic, going back thousands of years to include even more people one doesn't know, and may not want to know, to continue living just as they already did already. That could be soooo boring!

[center]

Male missionaries



Missionaries







[/center]

[Frank Cannon]

14. Sounds like celestial kidnapping to me.

What if you hadn't planned to, and didn't want to, spend eternity on another planet with these people?

[MisterFred]

24. Not to me.

If you believe in the Mormon religion, then it's a great spiritual chance for a dead someone to receive the grace and blessing of God.

If you don't believe in the Mormon religion, who the hell cares? I've never understood why people get upset at posthumous baptism. Shouldn't you have to believe in the power of the ritual to be offended? Now if someone changes a wikipedia page to say a dead person was Mormon after dunking a friend in water (has happened!), that you can be upset about.

Not to mention even in the Mormon teachings the person being posthumously baptized is only getting a chance to accept God - according to Mormons they get a chance to say "fuck off." Er... reject the blessing.

[Igel]

27. Yup.

They can do what they want to with me after I'm dead.

Heck, they can produce a little voodoo doll and baptize me vicariously using it. Don't see why I care (although that last bit might strike me as creepy, as long as it went no further than that ...)

[Moonwalk]

34. Other religions do care, though "logically" they shouldn't.....

Logically, if you were baptized in the "right" religion, then it's a done deal and no one can take that away from you. You've already gone to heaven and there you stay. BUT logic doesn't enter into it. In fact, it' something of an oxymoron where religion is concerned. Religion is about feelings. And when it comes to feelings, the argument that there is only one God doesn't hold up. Religious people may say this is true, but they don't often *feel* that it's true. What they feel is that there are other supernatural beings--the devil, demons, spirits, whatever. And that only one of these spirits, going by a particular name (Allah, Jesus) = good spirit, and all others (Allah, Jesus) = not-good-spirits (or not exactly right spirit). Which makes baptizing a child or a passed-on-loved one in the name of a not-good/not-exactly-right spirit alarming.

If nothing else, such baptisms do show disrespect for the living relations of these passed-on folk. They may feel exactly as the Momons do, that if the passed on loved one is re-baptized outside the religion, said loved one will be taken away from family (tribe) afterlife and unity with THEIR god Mormons would object to Catholics posthumously re-baptizing Momons as Catholics for this very reason...right? So, if you wouldn't like it done to yours, you shouldn't do it to others.

[MisterFred]

41. Well Mormons would say they wouldn't care about another religion's posthumous baptism.

Who knows how many would be lying to themselves when they said it.

That said, I understand the reasoning beyond your point. You ARE right. But I've never been able to internalize it viscerally. It's just an argument that is so completely lacking in internal consistency that I have a hard time taking it seriously.

[Moonwalk]

32. Well, any religion postulates that their heaven is the best and only place that anyone...

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2016, 05:56 PM - Edit history (1)

...would want to spend eternity if they only had the chance. Thus, Mormons are not only doing a good deed here, but giving someone a...um...beyond once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. This gives the religion curb appeal if you think about it. Other religions say: "If you don't sign up while alive, your chance at eternal happiness and life in the here-after is gone. It's now or never!"

Mormons say, "Our religion gives you a chance to realize your mistake and come to us even after you've left this Earth." That's pretty nice. You don't have to imagine, guess or even just believe what you're told about the afterlife. You can experience it, realize your mistake at not going Mormon, and change your mind posthumously. If, that is, some nice living Mormon gives you the opportunity by posthumously baptizing you.

[MisterFred]

39. Sadly,

Last I checked in with Mormon doctrine, that option is only available to those who didn't have the opportunity to "investigate" Mormonism in this lifetime. It's unknown how much opportunity is required. So if we were in Beijing, we'd probably be covered. But this apostate is certainly not getting any posthumous chances.

[Moonwalk]

43. Ah. Didn't know about that wrinkle....thanks for the correction....

...I guess Mormonism is no better than other religions in strong-arming the living into converting with the promise of a "once-in-a-lifetime chance to go to heaven." And in that case, it feels to me that such posthumous baptismals are less about selling the religion to others than esoteric competitiveness. That if they can baptise these passed-on folk into their faith they win spiritual points over other religions.

[MisterFred]

44. There's some of that.

But I tend to see it as their answer to the whole "what about people alive before Jesus/Mormonism" question. Both in the founding of the religion (if I buy into your new holy book, what about my parents/grandparents), and the less immediate modern equivalent.

You're right, though, that the question is only raised because of the strong-arming of "follow us or you don't get the best possible afterlife".

That said, the Mormon afterlife is considerably more generous than most Christian afterlives. It's REALLY hard to get into hell (Eternal Darkness). Though I might qualify! One of the few ways to go there is to have full and true knowledge of God and then reject God in full knowledge of what He is. My father, a priest, insists that normal apostates like myself don't qualify. He's biased, but then I never took on a Mormon priesthood.

Officially, the big threat is that everything will be more or less peachy but you'll feel a little silly/ashamed you didn't get the better-than-everyone-else heaven (Celestial Kingdom) and got the good-person (Terrestial Kingdom) or regular-person (Telestial Kingdom*) heaven. Also, you won't get (or won't get as quickly) the personal advancement that's available in the better-than-everyone-else heaven.

So I respect the Mormon afterlife in theory for trying to motivate largely on the promise of glory/personal development rather than fear of punishment. Unfortunately, in real life the actual effect is pretty close to normal Christian desire/fear of heaven/hell. Mormon doctrine does not, however, teach that non-believers will go to hell.

*Telestial is a made up word that might or might not (probably not) be loosely using telos or tele as a root. If it's using Latin or Greek (or in Mormon fantasy, Mayan), it would mean end(of life)-kingdom or distant(from the best)-kingdom. As I've heard it, the Terrestial Kingdom is where most will end up, which is pretty much a less-screwed-up Earth-like place.

[Dhantesvz]

20. as a former catholic

As someone who was brought up catholic what was taught in my church school is that before Jesus Christ's death no one went to heaven and his death opened the gates to those who were dead/would die. Before that people were stuck in a kind of limbo. I know I remember talking to a protestant friend who told me that protestants don't believe in purgatory.

Of course its all hocus pocus in my eyes, but can be interesting to read about just like Greek mythology, etc.

[Moonwalk]

31. Yes, that is the rational that Catholicism finally hit on for the dilemma...

...of what happened to all those good people prior to Jesus appearing on Earth. But it was a long and big debate for like, centuries before the church finally settled on that. I do think the Mormon solution, er...creative. Rather than leaving it up to heaven or God to take care of all those people in the past, those people alive in the present get involved and feel like they're, well, helping out? And it has the added benefit of always keeping the faithful involved in the religion. If you're not out trying to convert the living, you can always spend your free time converting the dead.

[MisterFred]

42. Gotta put those pretty (or pretty garish - your call) temples to use doing something!

[keithbvadu2]

30. Wasn't Romney also baptizing the dead of other families?

[MisterFred]

46. More-or-less all Mormons do that.

It's one of the most common things to do in a temple, which most practicing Mormons with a temple recommend* do on a semi-regular basis. So I don't know if Romney ever talked about it, but it can be assumed even if he didn't.

*temple recommend: bishop or other church authority certifies you are a member of the church who is following church doctrine and thus worthy to enter a temple - as opposed to a regular church, where anyone (member & non-member) is welcome

[mysuzuki2]

50. Perhaps someone should baptise dead Mormons into the Pastafarian church?

[keithbvadu2]

52. Or baptize them into Billy Graham's church?

Billy Graham who says Mormons are not Christians.

That would get confusing.

[truthisfreedom]

13. Give a boy a meal and you've fed him for a day.

Baptize him and you can tithe him for a lifetime.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

15. Brilliant!

[Frank Cannon]

16. Correct. The Mormons even have their own IRS for this.

It's at church headquarters and is called the Bishopric. Its sole function is to keep track of every member of the flock and ensure that they've been dutifully paying their 10 percent. Violators lose church privileges, or worse.

There's speculation that they're the real reason Mitt Romney was so reticent about releasing his tax returns when he ran for Pres. Mitt's more afraid of the Bishopric than he is the real IRS.

[Judi Lynn]

36. Did not know this. Thank you! n/t

[Judi Lynn]

35. Well, now, that sheds a whole new heavenly light on things! Very insightful! n/t

[TipTok]

33. Reminds me of the Montara case...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_case

The Mortara case (Italian: caso Mortara) was an Italian cause célèbre that captured the attention of much of Europe and the United States in the 1850s and 1860s. It concerned the Papal States' seizure from a Jewish family in Bologna of one of their children, six-year-old Edgardo Mortara, on the basis of a one-time servant's testimony that she had administered emergency baptism to the boy when he fell sick as an infant. Mortara grew up as a Catholic under the protection of Pope Pius IX—who refused his parents' desperate pleas for his return—and eventually became a priest. The domestic and international outrage against the pontifical state's actions may have contributed to its downfall amid the unification of Italy.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Have never heard of this case. It appears to have had its own life, consumed everyone around.

Completely amazing.

Thanks for the window to something as uncommon as this event.

[ButterflyBlood]

9. a strange but ultimately harmless practice

That's near the bottom of my list of concern about Mormons. If I heard they did so with any ancestors of mine I'd probably chuckle and be amused.

What happened here of course is completely different.

[mopinko]

19. that is why lsd has the largest searchable database

of genealogical records in the world. it is littered w inaccurate information. the members try to link to dead people of other faiths, so that they have "standing" to baptize them posthumously.
ancestry.com, i believe, is owned by the church.

[CanonRay]

21. I've seen it in genealogies of people

the ancestors have "baptismal" dates entered long after the date of death.

[laserhaas]

22. Yes...but has no value "legally"

Making the practice to appear to be a diabolical usurpation of - afterlife- rights.

Wonder how many have been "claimed" this way; and of what characteristics?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. Yes, it's colloquially called "dead dunking".

Every few years they get caught baptising dead non-Mormons. Mohandas Gandhi, Albert Einstein, etc. They do this with rolls of concentration camp victims. Then the Jews get mad at them, they promise not to do it again, and probably continue.

Kids in school will ask other kids for the full names of their grandparents so they can dead dunk them. I heard about this from a Jewish person who had gone to grade school in Phoenix.

[MisterFred]

25. It's not getting caught.

No one is trying to hide that they do this. For crazy apocalyptic reasons, they're not supposed to baptize Jews though - Jews get to be baptized after everyone else, because they're the chosen people. That's the only time the church promises not to do it again in the case of Jews - because it's against the church's teachings. Not because someone complained. Though why Jews themselves care is beyond me.

[Moonwalk]

45. Jews care because it shows disrespect for their religious beliefs....

...That's why ANYONE would care. In this case, the Mormons are as good as saying that they know better than a living relation (or tribal member) what their family/tribal members would have wanted (to be Mormon). They are also saying that the superiority of their religion entitles them to do this no matter what the living person feels about it. Given centuries of persecution, Jews, horrifically tortured and killed for being Jewish, would undoubtedly find this especially dismissive and disrespectful.

As religion is about feelings, it really doesn't matter if there is anything provably "concrete" to care about (I.e actual souls being kidnapped to Mormon heaven). The Mormon belief that they can baptise the non-Mormon dead without permission shows a callous entitlement that disregards the feelings of those who tend to the cemeteries, pray at the graves of their ancestors, and have personal feelings about this rather than being esoteric bean-counters ("My grandfather" vs. "Another soul on the roster&quot .

We humans have such strong imaginations, and tend (for better or worse) to identify with those in the past, especially our ancestors or forefathers. We are "one of them" and they are "one of us." We build monuments to them, we envision them watching over us. Because of this, defiling, appropriating, etc. the dead of another's culture is a common way for one group of people to emotionally crush another people. To assert superiority. Knowingly or unknowingly, this is what these Mormons are doing. And this is why people get upset. It's not abstract...it's very, very personal.

[MisterFred]

47. Oh, I'm not saying it's not disrespectful.

I'm just saying Mormons aren't "getting caught" doing this. They're proudly and publicly documenting it.

[Moonwalk]

49. I was responding to the part of your post where you said....

"Though why Jews themselves care is beyond me."

I seems to me that it is not beyond you if you understand how that kind of disrespect would feel.

[MisterFred]

51. Well I understand in theory where the sense of disrespect would come from - not how it'd feel. nt

[Hulk]

10. No surprise..

From the cult religion. They are ALL corrupt and deceivious. The jahovas, the baptists, catholics, and all the rest pray on the hungry mouths and hopeful spirits of the poor to trick them in to their myths and smoke and mirror tents.

Damn them all!

[AntiBank]

12. jahovas

is that like a rastafarian crossed with a 7th day adventist?

[Frank Cannon]

17. "Hey, muchacho, want some candy? Come with us!"

These kids are lucky they only got baptised.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Definitely! The more familiar scheme has focused on the soul's earthly vessel, not the soul itself!

Clearly two dissimilar ways of looking at a child.

[3catwoman3]

18. The idea of missionaries of any kind is utterly repulsive to me.

Even when I briefly thought I was a Christian while in high school, I was never, ever comfortable with the idea of witnessing and the expectation to get other people to "see the light" and become Christians. I just couldn't make myself do it, nor could I buy into the belief that people who did not accept JC were doomed. I always wondered, "What about people who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus? Are they damned because of lack of opportunity?" Didn't seem fair or right.

My own outlook on spiritual enlightenment is similar to my outlook on parenting. If there was an important message I needed to get across to my sons, now 26 and 23, I would not give up if the first way I said it did not resonate with them. I would try every variety of communication I could think of to help them recognize what I thought were important life lessons. Would not an alleged supreme being, who should be at least as smart and compassionate as I fancy myself to be, have more than one way to get thru to people?

In the last 4 years, I have found a comfortable spiritual home in a small Unitarian Universalist congregation a couple of towns away. Interesting discussions on a wide variety of topics, never anything preachy, and people who are deeply committed to a wide variety of good works - climate/ food pantries/homelessness/ domestic violence/ sustainable farming/ recycling/ etc, etc. The recently retired 25 yr minister is an atheist, as are several members of the congregation. Quite fascinating.

[Igel]

28. Missionaries are just itinerant teachers.

They teach mostly religion. Some missionaries also teach reading or some math.

There used to be itinerant rhetors, who were itinerant teachers as well. They'd teach rhetoric, and often more. Think of them as travelling scholars.


Public education is missionary in many ways. It's mandated (but religious school can also be mandated) and often state-funded, but it has not just teaching reading, writing, arithmetic and job skills as its goal but also changing and modifying behavior, attitudes, morality. We don't like to think it does this, but a lot of effort goes into anti-bullying campaigns, fighting racism and increasing tolerance, cultural norms. It's one reason Dewey gave for having universal public education, to homogenize and train a multi-ethnic workforce. It's not a reason given today, but if you listen to how teachers should be "change agents" it's still there.

At some point the mere presence or absence of a deity is of less importance than everything else that goes along with the organization or cause.

[MisterFred]

48. Yeah, but

Mormon missionaries tend to be noticeably ill-prepared and ignorant teachers, even given their chosen subject. I took a tour of the Church's new conference center in downtown SLC a few years back and I ended up answering most of another tour-goer's questions about the Mormon religion because the missionary leading the tour didn't know the answers. (Though the tour itself was informative about the building!)

To be fair, I'm a Mormon apostate, I've studied various religions from a secular perspective, and I was older than the missionary. But that's kind of my point. You'd hope itinerant teachers would be less ignorant.

That said, in some parts of the world the Mormons do pretty good with service (charity) missions. This is especially common where missionaries are allowed but door-to-door proselytism is not.

[jwirr]

26. Not new. And they are lucky - they have also baptized most

of our dead ancestors.

The Mormons have stolen Native American children for decades. They believe that the Natives are the lost Israelite children from the the Old Testament.

[NeoGreen]

29. "The church also informed Ruiz that the missionaries would be removed from the area."

Hey, can I get some of that?

[Release The Hounds]

40. .