No Muslim family should engage in birth control: Turkey's Erdogan

[MowCowWhoHow III]

Source: Reuters

No Muslim family should engage in birth control or family planning, Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday, calling again on pious Muslims to have more children.

"We will multiply our descendants. They talk about population planning, birth control. No Muslim family can have such an approach," he said in a speech in Istanbul broadcast live on television. "Nobody can interfere in God's work. The first duty here belongs to mothers," he said.

Women's groups and opposition politicians have criticized Erdogan, a devout Muslim for telling women how many children to have and dismissing the Western idea of gender equality. He has previously equated birth control with treason.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-erdogan-women-idUSKCN0YL1RR?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Reuters%2FworldNews+%28Reuters+World+News%29

[tabasco]

1. This Erdogan guy is taking his country backwards.

Just like republicans and some Democrats are doing in the good old USA.

Overpopulation is the world's greatest problem because of stupid shit like this.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

15. Ok Alex Jones.

[Igel]

41. It's a trope.

It works here, with Erdogan--it's what Erdogan says, more or less, and there aren't good alternative explanations.

It's also why anti-vaccination drives in Pakistan and Afghanistan ran into armed opposition; after the CIA "thing" looking for bin Ladin that was the excuse offered to/by Western journalists and activists, but for the decade before that (and in sources after that) the claim was that the vaccinations would sterilize Muslim women so that Islam would be weakened and they could be easily conquered.

The "Alex Jones" view is the same thinking, assuming that there must be a war between Islam and the West and that the West is always plotting, scheming, and planning on how to win it. Western journalists and activists feed this view but couch it in terms of "imperialism" while making sure everybody knows that once * used the word "crusader."

[mwrguy]

24. Good

I'll be able to buy white christian tears by the tanker.

[Akicita]

25. That's the idea. Cheap white Christian tears.

They are pretty cheap in Iraq already.

[Marengo]

45. Are you a Muslim?

[FrodosPet]

53. Other people's misery make you happy?

This makes you a good person in what way?

Yecccchhh!

[romanic]

62. You should get a tanker for Coptic Christian tears

or should I say blood because a lot of it as been spilled in the ME.

[potone]

17. That man is a disaster across the board.

I have a Turkish friend whose academic field is modern Turkish studies. She told me last week that it is impossible to know what is really going on in Turkey: there is such a complicated network of the military, the AKP, the security services, the judicial system and corporate interests, collectively known as the "Deep State" which is anything but transparent. It is clear that Erdogan is trying to recreate the Ottoman empire, if in a limited form, and to undue the achievements of the secular state. If he is successful in getting the constitution changed to make the presidency more powerful, it will have terrible consequences for Turkey and its Arab neighbors.

I keep telling her that he won't be in power forever, but that is little comfort, as it is anyone's guess who will succeed him. Poor Turkey!

[forest444]

2. Most third world countries have made lower birth rates a priority since the 1970s.

But not our medieval friend in Ankara.

No wonder he and ISIS get on so well.

[MariaThinks]

9. i believe turkey is supporting isis in the same way pakistan is supporting the taliban.

[perdita9]

3. Carrying Capacity--it's a real issue

If a population exceeds the carrying capacity of their ecosystem, the face death by starvation, famine, pestilence and war.

I hope no one listens to Mr. Erdogan

[Igel]

42. Lebensraum. More population just calls out for Lebensraum. It's righteous, don't you know. n/t

[philosslayer]

4. This is what is happening in Europe

Birth rates of Muslims, both recent immigrants and long term residents, greatly outpace those of native Europeans. As such, the face of Europe, and the politics, will radically alter in coming years as Muslims gain political strength just through sheer numbers.

[Akicita]

22. Ok Alex Jones.

[philosslayer]

55. I don't understand your response.

And I don't know who Alex Jones is. I'm only quoting facts and demographic trends. Quite frankly I think in the long term it will be good for Europe.

[christx30]

64. I'd like to ask a question, in the most respectful way I know how:

What is it about modern day Europe that you don't like? Because I've seen you take this stance on numerous issues and various threads. That Europe is becoming more and more culturally Muslim, and that is somehow a good thing. For the purpose of the question, pretend I don't exactly disagree with you. Why do you think it would do Europe good to erase 1000 years of history and tradition and become predominately Muslim?
What would that look like? In one thread you mentioned getting rid of existing churches in favor of mosques? Do you still hold that as being in the 'good' column?
And for what Europe could do to stop it, look at Hungary. They aren't letting migrants in. The rest of Europe could institute tough vetting. No more single men get in. Only women, children, families. If you want to know what Europe could be if controls are not put into place, look at Turkey.

[philosslayer]

65. So you clearly oppose what Germany is doing

And France, and Sweden. You oppose shutting out migrants. Hungary is ruled by the far right. Is THAT what you want?

Sorry, but the vast majority of French, Swedes and Germans are welcoming the migrants with open arms. And the support their center-left governments. And they know that as more Muslims integrate into society, that the societies will be modified. Thats part of the human story. Cultures always change over time. Instead of being afraid of it, you should welcome and look forward to it.

[christx30]

66. So you're ok with dictators like

Erdogan rising to power. Telling Muslim women that use birth control that they are traitors. Transforming what was once a peaceful secular country into an Islamist police state. Trying to have comedians put in prison for jokes about them. Conspiring with and financing groups like ISIS (through buying their oil), allowing them to leave a trail of decapitated corpses across Iraq and Syria, and enslave 100's of thousands of people.
Yeah. That sounds like a wonderful plan. I'm glad it's happening, and I'm so happy to be on board.

[philosslayer]

69. Were you upset when Hofer lost in Austria

Last week? Do you support the right wing parties arising in Getmany? Sounds as if you do.

[christx30]

70. I'm not right wing. I voted for Bernie in the Texas primary.

But I'm in favor of limits to immigration. I'm in favor of the immigrants changing themselves to match the places they move, rather than changing the host country to suit their needs.
I support vetting immigrants, and not just allow floods of them to come across without limits. Obama has it right with only allowing women, children, and families to come in. Glad we have the Atlantic ocean between us and the troubled spots.
Again I ask you: If it's true that immigrants change the host countries, why is this a good thing? They are leaving Muslim dominated areas of great strife, sectarian violence, death for any real or imagined slight against their Prophet (just try naming a teddy bear Muhammad, and see what happens), ect. You don't think that they are going to bring this kind of garbage with them? Do you still think it's a good thing?

[philosslayer]

71. Wow

Just WOW. Really? Go back 100 years and that's EXACTLY what people were saying about Italian and Irish immigrants to the US.

Of course immigrants change host countries. The US culture has been shaped by the many cultures and peoples that have come here. People move. Time marches on. Cultures change.

[christx30]

77. Again, why do you think it's a good thing?

You weren't painting it as something that's going to happen and we have to figure out how to live with it. You were saying on this thread and others that it's a good thing. You mentioned "revitalizing the culture". What does that mean? And how are we going to preserve things like equal rights for women, minorities, LGBQT, ect? Because in that part of the world, those aren't really much of a thing.
How exactly is this a good thing?

[philosslayer]

78. It's already happening in Sweden

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2016/0530/Sweden-stirs-debate-with-women-only-swimming-in-nod-to-Muslims

At least in small ways.

The Swedes obviously don't have a problem with the modification of their culture, and theirs is among the most progressive in the world. I trust their judgement.

[christx30]

82. From the link,

it looks as though the change in culture isn't as universally accepted as you might think. The people that run the pools are in favor of it, but anyone that's working for gender equality is against it.
So when two cultures come together that are so different from each other, one of them is going to sublimate the other. Which one should become more dominate? My opinion? I will always default for more personal freedom, and rights for women, LGBQT, and minorities. You may disagree.

Quick scenario for you: Gay couple are walking along the street and kiss in front of a store, because they feel like it. Turns out the store is a halal butcher. The owner is offended at this (because he's a traditional Muslim) and complains to the local city council. What should the council do? Tell the owner that he's not in Syria (or Iran or Iraq, ect) and he should get over it? Or pass some kind of local law forbidding same sex couples from kissing in public?

And you keep skipping over my question, which I've asked a few times: Why do you feel it's good (a word you have used) that countries are becoming more Muslim dominate, and the culture is changing?

[philosslayer]

83. There is a lot of richness in Muslim cultures

Do a bit of research. We in the west seem to emphasize some of the more extreme elements of the culture, but as cultures merge, the harder edges tend to soften. That is ultimately good for Islam, and will provide needed diversity to the West. This is the exact reason that Sweden made the conscious effort to accept perhaps a million+ immigrants from the Middle East in the past 40 years.

[leftynyc]

86. Please feel free to expand

on the "richness" of Muslim culture that we should be welcoming here in the west. You know, the part that's supposed to make us forget all the rest of the crap.

[christx30]

91. You're not talking about adding to the existing culture

of the area. You're talking about complete replacement of the existing culture. And you skipped over where I asked you why you thought that was a good thing. On other threads you spoke of tearing down existing churches to build mosques. Do you still believe that?

And are you in favor of Islamic immigration into Europe in general, or the uncontrolled, unvetted masses that are coming in now?

What would you do about a Muslim caterer that refused to do a job for a gay wedding? (Since homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, and this is a repeated issue in the US) Would you treat the Christian baker the same way?

[GummyBearz]

92. ...

You've been philosslayered. Think of it like in ghost busters when someone gets slimed... Try to shower ASAP, it leaves a bad smell otherwise.

[smirkymonkey]

49. And keep themselves mired in poverty and ignorance.

What political strength! They will breed themselves into oblivion. The host cultures will turn on them.

[PersonNumber503602]

56. I think you posted that from the wrong account, dude.

Isn't philosslayer your overly "sympathetic" and illogical caricature account?

[philosslayer]

57. I have no idea what you're talking about

What I posted is based on trends and demographics. If you disagree, try disagreeing with countering facts as opposed to personal attacks.

[smirkymonkey]

58. Dream on.

It will never happen. I would hate to say what else would happen first. Europe will never allow a takeover by an oppressive muslim majority.

[philosslayer]

59. What are you suggesting?

Muslim birth rates remain at a high level, and immigration continues. The birth rates of native Europeans remain stagnant. Simple numbers. Nothing on the horizon indicates either situation will change. What is it you suggest Europe will do about it?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

93. No, he's got the correct one

Uber liberal caricature/parody philoslayer believes radical Islamic dogma slathered in oppressive patriarchal bullshit is more important to be recognized and respected than women's rights (as well as LGBT causes) even if the irony of European progressive society kowtowing to those religious radical extremists lead to a full blown outbreak of those groups liberals traditionally champion being oppressed in the long run by increasingly conservative Muslims gaining power to make law.

Hey, I'm here to help.

[smirkymonkey]

84. And turn beautiful, progressive Europe into another 3rd world shithole.

Just like the ones they came from.

[philosslayer]

85. So you oppose European acceptance of migrants

So noted.

[6chars]

5. This has nothing to do with Islam

[MariaThinks]

8. r u sure?

[Igel]

43. Whose Islam?

Is there just one variety?

Are there Islams that are compatible with nationalistic tendencies? "We, the _________, are the defenders of the faith?"

[CrispyQ]

6. I wish we could kill the big three.

Seriously. They are the base of so many problems.

I loathe religion.

[6chars]

14. Good news for you

Jews are 0.2% of the world's population, and not really growing.

Wait, what do you mean by the big three?

[CrispyQ]

18. The Abrahamic religions.

I loathe all religion, but the big three are especially repugnant.

[EL34x4]

27. I assume you are not posting this blasphemy from a Muslim country.

Where you could be punished with death.

[CrispyQ]

34. Not sure what that has to do with my comments. We aren't discussing freedom of speech. -nt

[MariaThinks]

36. the point is obvious. You equate three religions, but will recieve death for those comments only in

a muslim state.

e.g. go to a church or synagogue and make those comments, then try it in a muslim country. Because they are all the same.

[Arazi]

28. +10000 eom

[MariaThinks]

37. it's an attempt to falsely equate the radicalization in islam to other religions

[Quantess]

73. Because liberals are afraid of being perceived as islamophobic.

Liberals enjoy the appearance of not singling out one religion or even an individual religion-based culture as being worse than any other.

The facade crumbles when you ask these same kid-glovedliberals whether or not they give a flying fuck about women, gays, transgendered people, and human rights in general.

[EL34x4]

74. Then they'll remind us that 1000 years ago

Christians were just as bad or they'll bring up the Lord's Resistance Army or anti-gay laws in Uganda as if these places are representative of modern, mainstream Christianity.

[CrispyQ]

79. No it's not.

You don't know me. Don't speak for me. I'm an atheist & I abhor all religion.

Man created God in his own image to control woman.

[leftynyc]

87. But you SPECIFICALLY

called out what you call the "big three" - the Abrahamic religions. You were asked what it was about Judaism, in particular, that you find so noxious that you felt comfortable making that comparison and why on earth, given it's only 14 million adherents, you find so threatening about it.

[CrispyQ]

88. I call out the big three cuz they are all based on the same patriarchal imaginary being. --nt

[leftynyc]

89. I asked you a specific question

How can any religion with only 14 million adherents can be called a "big" anything? And I certainly don't see the leader of any Jewish country telling it's citizens they can't or shouldn't use birth control. Do you? You can pretend you weren't making a ridiculous comparison all you want but I'm holding you to your own words.

[CrispyQ]

90. I don't care to debate the degrees of these religions. I think they all suck.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

[leftynyc]

95. So just spouting off

to appear pc and prove Bill Maher right. Got it.

[CrispyQ]

98. Yeah, you know me so well.

~insert flip-the-bird smilie here.

[leftynyc]

99. Awwww

It's not like it's mind numbing to figure you out.

[6chars]

72. proportion

World: 7,400,000,000
Christians: 2,200,000,000
Muslims: 1,600,000,000
Jews: 14,000,000

Religious people in world ~59%: 4,400,000,000
Religious Christians ~80%: 1,760,000,000 (~4/10 of all religious)
Religious Muslims ~75%: 1,200,000,000 (~3/11 of all religious)
Religious Jews ~38%: 5,000,000 (~1/1000 of all religious)

If you really hold animus hatred for all three religions, you hold about 300-400 times as much per Jew as you do per Christian and Per Muslim. Perhaps you would care to expand on why this is.

[Quantess]

94. Curious. Any statistics on how many in each religion are extremists, fundamentalists?

Just the ones who are hard-core adherents? Those fanatics are the dangerous and oppressive ones, never mind the reasonable, somewhat religious types.

Which religion has a higher percentage of fundamentalists? I can guess, but I would like to know the stats.

[6chars]

100. that is probably an unanswerable question

You would have to define extremist/fundamentalist/hard core.

If you define internally relative to each faith, 10% of each faith will be in its most extreme 10%.

If you have some survey benchmarks, like questions about homosexuality, blasphemy, women's rights, belief in own faith, disbelief in other faiths, willingness to kill or die for faith, etc. maybe it could be answered in that way, and you could say how many of each faith fall on that kind of a spectrum.

[PersonNumber503602]

101. I had no idea there are only approx 14 million jewish folk in the world

I really thought that number was much higher. But then again, I never bothered to look that information up.

[MariaThinks]

7. and turkey is supposed to be the successful Muslim state.

unlike Pakistan or afganistan for example.

[Igel]

46. it was doing good.

But it hit the radicalization problem from other Muslim states.

A large population boom fueled by a lot of lower economic status households without a lot of Western influence. Instead you got traditional values passed along to newly literate, book-educated young adults. The newly empowered lower classes were conservative, and drive the cultural agenda.

Couple this with the anti-Western attitude from many in the West: We must not impose culture, values, etc., on others; this is imperialism, and, in fact, we did them all wrong in the past so they're right in rejecting Western values. Now, this sounds reasonable until you hit the brick wall that local, traditional values are, according to Western standards, retrograde, sexist, misogynist, homophobic, etc., etc., etc.

Pitch in economic resentment caused by saying they'd all be wealthy if not for Western colonialism with the constant singing the praises of the Ottomans and Turkishness and reminding people of humiliation of the Turks and of Islam, and you're set up for a lot of problems. (Again, in 4000 years of history and knowable pre-history for pretty much the entire world you don't find extreme levels of wealth and health like you do in modern Turkey, much less much of the West, so it's not like high levels of technology, health, prosperity are the natural order of human society).

[vkkv]

10. If ANYONE isn't part of the solution.. They are part of the problem..NT

[Oneironaut]

11. Ugh. There are enough people in the world.

We do not need more - especially ignorant religious fundamentalists. We are different from other animals in that we have the means to control our population through birth control. If you want to see a budding Malthusian disaster, look no further than China. They've destroyed their lands so badly that they need to spread out and infect the space around them (South China Sea) like a spreading disease.

Anyone who wants higher human reproduction rates at this time is an ignorant dumbass. Erdogan has already proven himself to be one, so this is totally in character.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

12. Okay, this is one case where you can say.....

....."JUST LIKE THE CHRISTOFACISTS IN THIS COUNTRY!!!!!"

[Jack Rabbit]

16. No human being should support Erdogan: Jack Rabbit

He's just another highhanded tyrant the world would be better off without.

[bucolic_frolic]

19. 'No sperm should be wasted, every sperm is good'

They all look the same to me

[Herman4747]

20. Islam's Prophet, Muhammad, likewise favored overbreeding:

As the following hadith shows:

Narrated Ma'qil ibn Yasar: A man came to the Prophet
(peace be upon him) and said: I have found a woman of
rank and beauty, but she does not give birth to children.
Should I marry her? He said: No. He came again to him,
but he prohibited him.
He came to him third time, and he (the Prophet) said:
Marry women who are loving and very prolific, for I shall
outnumber the peoples by you. (Abu Dawud, 11:2045)

Islamic clerics in Pakistan (and elsewhere) are consigning large families to deep poverty, the Muslim population will grow twice as fast as that for nonMuslims over the next 20 years, with Europe being 10 percent Muslim by 2050.

More at: Sharp Muslim Population Growth

[MariaThinks]

38. its convenient to see how people lie when they say that overpopulating is not in the religion

[pansypoo53219]

21. the anti Ataturk.

[scottie55]

23. Is This The Guy That Is Paying ISIS For All That Oil

So they can buy guns and shoot our soldiers......

[mainer]

26. Just breaks my heart to see what Turkey faces

I have so many Turkish friends who are appalled by Erdogan, but they almost all live in Western, liberal Turkey, where Erdogan has no support. As in our own country, Turkish election are swayed by the Trump-like crazy voters, many of them in the Eastern half of the country. The conservatives are trying to force their agenda down the throats of the progressive intellectuals in istanbul.

[LeftishBrit]

32. +1

'Erdogan' seems to be the Turkish for 'Trump'.

[LeftishBrit]

29. Oh, Erdogan, many people wish your parents had engaged in birth control!

[Arazi]

30. Just what a planet groaning under it's current population needs, more people

Erdogan is suiciding his country. Climate change will make it so

[jwirr]

31. With Climate Change coming we will not have to fight them

anymore - they are going to face the end of fossil fuel use, the growth of poverty and the beginning of their own civil wars.

[No Vested Interest]

35. Wikipedia tells me that Erdogan has four children. Slacker! nt

[no_hypocrisy]

39. What happened to Turkey? It used to be so secular not that long ago.

[Igel]

47. Demographic change.

Exactly what happened to Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Syria, Egypt.

Some countries are managing it well, some fair to middling well. Saudiyya is paying off its younger classes. Egypt had a revolution that was ultimately suppressed. Lots of technically educated but unenlightened young people who retain traditional mindsets up against an elite that hasn't worked for them quickly enough; the population surge has resulted in unmet demands and resentment.

Yes, it sounds familiar. Still, there it is.

[Jesus Malverde]

50. Saudi petrodollars setting up Wahhabi mosques...nt

[geek tragedy]

67. democratization, the military stopped enforcing secularism

Amazing they were on the fast track to EU membership at one point.

[Monk06]

40. Secular forces in Turkey need to take back control from the neo fundamentalists Erdogan is

making it hard to justify Turkey's membership in NATO

Unfortunately if Turkey were to leave NATO it would become another Egypt, a breeding ground for ISIS type political movements

[Odin2005]

44. Fuck this guy. Why hasn't the Turkish military removed this idiot, yet?

[FrodosPet]

54. Do they want to?

Will the military be better off if they do?

[roamer65]

60. Because it has been infiltrated by Wahhabi'ist nutbags. N/t

[AngryAmish]

97. He got them first.

The generals were purged five years ago. He has his own people in the military now.

[truthisfreedom]

48. Ooh ooh ohh... Catholicism!!!

Baby steps!

[Skittles]

51. religious nuttiness

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[IggleDoer]

52. Perhaps I missed something

Was that statement from the President of Turkey or the President of Hobby Lobby?

[moondust]

61. He could be a Republican.

Motivated by insatiable greed for more "subjects" to further empower and enrich him and his corrupt pals.

[romanic]

63. Turkey's going to get roasted with this guy still in charge.

I hope he gets removed from office for such irresponsible and stupid comments!

[geek tragedy]

68. Majority of the population agrees with him.

Why do you think ISIS operates out of Turkey with such ease?

[Herman4747]

76. Why is Turkey forgetting Ataturk, WHO FOUGHT FOR GENDER EQUALITY? n/t

[fasttense]

80. Not another foolish man who thinks he knows what God wants for women.

How do they know that God does NOT want birth control? Why would God allow birth control if God did not want birth control to be used?

God works in mysterious ways, but according to this foolish man, God can't work through the use of birth control and family planning.

Birth control and family planning are a gift to women from God and he wants to take it away.

[Yupster]

81. This is really just all demographics

Turkey has traditionally been two groups of people.

There were the western coastal Turks in Istanbul nd its environs, going down the coast toward Syria. There were the Turks of the inner plateaus of Anatolia.

The coastal Turks were much more western, more secular, much more educated and wealthy. Many had family relationships with Europe, mostly Greece and Italy but also Bulgaria. They held political power.

The Anatolian Turks were more traditional. They were muich more religious and their religion was more fundamentalist. They were less educated, and less wealthy. They had traditionally been pretty much shut out of power.

Then came demographics. Birthrates came down among the coastal and Istanbul Turks, as they have in Europe. Birthrates remained high in Anatolia and deathrates came way down in Anatolia, especially child mortality.

The result is the Erdogen has been the first President of Turkey elected by the Anatolian Turks. They have the political power now and demographics seems to be speeding up as many coastal Turks have been moving to Europe where they have relatives.

Expect Turkey to become more and more fuundamentalist as time goes on.

It's hard to fight demographics. Sweden and Holland and France are finding out the same thing.

[riderinthestorm]

96. Interesting. Thanks for posting nt