Report: Chavez's cancer has 'entered the end stage'
Source: Dan Rather | HDNet
This reporter has been told that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has metastatic rhabdomyosarcoma, an aggressive cancer that has "entered the end stage". The information and the quote come from a highly respected source close to Chavez and who is in a position to know his medical condition and history. This source says the prognosis is dire and that Chavez is now not expected to live "more than a couple of months at most." Chavez is running for re-elec tion in Venezuela but several sources--including the one who revealed the exact kind of cancer-- have told me that they believe it is doubtful the dictator will live to see the results.
Voting is scheduled for October 7th. Chavez has been treated three times in Cuba but the exact kind of cancer has been a closely guarded state secret.
Reporter's note: There is only one source for identifying the cancer and for the prognosis quoted in the first part of the above story. This is a person whom your reporter has very good reason to trust, but you should know that there is only one source so far; no other immediate confirmation. All sources asked for and were granted anonymity because to reveal their names could place them in danger or, at the very least cost them their positions.
Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/report--chavez-s-cancer-has--entered-the-end-stage-.html#more-id
Only one source so I wouldn't consider it confirmed but it certainly is consistent with his behavior over the past several months. I would not wish such a death on my worst enemy.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Nothing like good 'ol generic pys-ops story. Is it time for bed now?
hack89
(39,171 posts)why has he been so silent and out of sight?
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Define silent and out of sight.
hack89
(39,171 posts)that's not the Hugo we know and love.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Speculation and wishful thinking is not a fact.
hack89
(39,171 posts)reappeared on Tuesday in a live television broadcast, the first
time he has been seen in public view since returning from cancer
treatment in Cuba almost two weeks ago.
It was only Chavez's third appearance in public since
mid-April. He called state television twice in recent days but
it was his first public speech since he returned from Cuba after
completing radiotherapy sessions on May 11.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-22/business/sns-rt-venezuela-chavez-tvl1e8gmn63-20120522_1_venezuela-s-chavez-reporting-by-mario-naranjo-venezuelan-president-hugo-chavez
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)"His appearance on Tuesday could help dampen speculation,
stoked by leaks from pro-opposition journalists, that his
condition may be grave."
Snip
"Chavez spoke in a strong voice and did not appear tired
during the broadcast."
Snip
"Chavez cracked jokes with government ministers during
Tuesday's broadcast and reiterated his plans to register his
candidacy for an Oct. 7 election next month as set out by the
country's electoral commission."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-22/business/sns-rt-venezuela-chavez-tvl1e8gmn63-20120522_1_venezuela-s-chavez-reporting-by-mario-naranjo-venezuelan-president-hugo-chavez
Her is a nice quote for you.
"The Rumors of My Death Have Been Greatly Exaggerated." Mark Twain
hack89
(39,171 posts)Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Not going to argue that.
hack89
(39,171 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Cadenas on an epic basis. People repeatedly say it's just a trick, that he's not sick and he's playing out of the spotlight so that he can make his legendary return, but I simply don't buy it.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Until then...
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Are you wishing cancer on me or something?
I'm not nearly as prolific or as charismatic as Hugo Chavez. No one would notice a difference much if I got cancer except I wouldn't be at work I guess. Hugo's extended absence for the first time in over a decade is a really bad sign, man.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)You seem to dimish someones struggle to recovery because they aren't doing more to your standards. It is not "a bad sign", it is a normal sign to someone going through a recovery.
crunch60
(1,412 posts)JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)They would give him blood and he'd perk up for a short time. Certainly long enough to put on a brave front and make an appearance. I don't know if this is applicable to Chavez, I just wanted to throw this info out there.
Julie
wordpix
(18,652 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Mosby
(16,401 posts)I think that lends some weight to this.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)It seems very out of character for him to call an elected President, a dictator. Venezuelan elections have been deemed much more transparent and accurate, than America's.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)I also think Chavez is a dictator; Would I put that in a news-piece I'm writing? No.
Slip up by an otherwise outstanding journalist; everyone has them.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Imagine an accurate story about some White House function that happened to call the elected president of the US a "dictator." What would you think of that?
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Sorry, but Chavez is definitely not that friendly to democracy.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Also, that thing about executive discretion to drone-bomb any human, including US citizens, for any reason in any place in the world. Hmmmm.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)elections anywhere, according to International observers, incuding the Carter Foundation. Take it up with the Venezuelan people then.
Of course the arrogant opinion of Western Global Oil Cartels assumes that the Ven People are too stupid to know what is good for them. They need to turn over their oil, as Iraq has, for THEM to profit from. But Chavez disagrees and has used his countries resources to benefit those who own them, sharply diminishing the 80% poverty and illiteracy rate that was the norm there when the Oligarchs were in charge.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)The word has taken on a negative connotation, but it does not technically have to be so. If the constitution of Venezuela grants the President dictatorial powers, then he would be a dictator within the limits of that constitution.
The Venezuelan Presidency certainly has more authority than ours to do things by fiat. But I disagree that it crosses the line into dictator. Why would Chavez have held a referendum, which he lost, to grant him even more power if his power was already dictatorial?
I should hope that Chavez shall be remembered for saving his country from a communist rebellion. I had business associates who were trapped in Caracas before the generals took over and turned Chavez loose. The pesky thing about old people is that sometimes we remember what happened before the propagandists rewrote things.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Bad_Ronald
(265 posts)..."good ol generic psy-ops" people???????????????????????????
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)I think that last line in that paragraph was supposed to be in quotes, like the other paragraph has a quote that ends it, and it's in quotes.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Without verifying the source the article is hogwash.
Well, ya see, this, guy, yeah, this guy told me...
RZM
(8,556 posts)Old Troop
(1,991 posts)that truly cares very little about Chavez. What would the purpose of a psyops operation be?
Archae
(46,369 posts)Ok, let's say this story is factual, and Chavez dies of cancer.
What's going to happen in Venezuela?
Military coup?
Civil war?
Purges?
I just wonder.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)I'm no fan of Chavez but let's not get ahead of ourselves. I think the people of Venezuela are big kids who can take care of themselves just fine.
Archae
(46,369 posts)Chavez has his power base in his cult of personality, and all too often it doesn't work out too well after the Big Guy dies.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)while Capriles is making a strong showing, Chavez appears to be the favorite. however, the election was moved up a couple of months so that it was more likely he would last until the election which appears in doubt if this story is accurate. there appears to be a huge void in leadership in Chavez's party. His death would be chaotic. at least the opposition is solidly behind Capriles. whether he would be allowed to assume power is my worry. or even if he loses and Chavez dies, then what?
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)If he dies and no successor is clear, no high profile PSUV candidate can beat Capriles (this far out even the pro-government pollsters are putting all potentials behind Capriles). They need Chavez to come out, name someone, and someone really damn good, possibly someone that's been under the radar, very charismatic. Youthful. Then Capriles can lose.
The only other way for the Chavistas to maintain power would be to take control and cancel the elections, or, the more cynical route, assassinate Capriles.
lastlib
(23,356 posts)...but I can think of a few for whom, if they had it, I wouldn't waste any tears...
Mika
(17,751 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)remember the Soviet Union announcing their great voter turnout. Elections =/= free elections.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Free beer. Yes, really.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)that VZ has always welcomed international monitors so your comparison to the Soviet Union has to be taken in that context.
hack89
(39,171 posts)the words dictator and elections often go together.
Mika
(17,751 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)just pointing out that it is not odd at all.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)...it's badly formatted (it's not indicating it's a "source" .
Theory has it that the actual source is in Havana and this is being leaked to force Chavez to name a successor.
I'm sorry to know that Chavez is about to die. I am somewhat curious as to where the title "dictator" came from - and why it was copied as is in this article.
The last I heard Chavez was the president of Venezuela.
I never considered yahoo to be part of the lame-stream media and if Dan Rather was the source, that also surprises me.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)I laughed.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)will be in full scale mode when he finally kicks the bucket, but most sensible folks will rightly say "good riddance."
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)i know he didn't renew the broadcast license for that TV station that essentially sponsored his coup, but a "tyrannical scumbag" would've lined those traitorous bastards up against a wall. in any case, i do eagerly await your reply.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Blamed on everything but his governments own incompetence.
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)So what does that mean?
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)To make it clear, approximately 100k Venezuelans have been murdered by gangs or Chavez' own police or just other criminal violence over the past decade. At one point Chavez' own police were responsible for most of the kidnappings, and in fact to this day there are armed police checkpoints throughout Venezuela. A young woman was recently killed by the police because the driver thought the checkpoint was what I believe was a kidnapping ploy.
For perspective this would be as if 1 million Americans were murdered in the past decade. The real number is closer to 100k. With a country with 300 million people.
ChangoLoa
(2,010 posts)A normal situation, on the whole...
PS: by the way, how many Americans were killed during WWII? Not even half of that number?
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)And yet still Venezuela is 10x worse. We've lowered the bar really low and it still obliterates us.
This, btw, is my primary criticism of Colombia, too. People dismiss Colombia's FARC/AUC death wars over a few dozen union leaders being killed. Yes, the union people being killed is really bad, but how about the hundreds of thousands of Colombian's killed due to that conflict? It's atrocious where peoples priorities are.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It is also a region with high murder rates.
Compare and contrast with El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras. They all have similarly high murder rates, under a variety of different governments.
Figuring out the causes of crime is tough. I don't give Bush or Obama credit for lowering US crime rates. Similarly, I don't blame Chavez for high crime rates there. At least not completely.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)him and keep democratically electing him. That you'll be happy when he dies means absolutely nothing.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)outside the context of any particular discussion, save to the people riled up by them.
But thanks for chiming in: your input is worth what I paid for it.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)See there: two can play the "I'll ask an irrelevant and non-responsive rhetorical question and pretend I've refuted something" game!
Swell fun, ain't it?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Or who offers this as though it wins a point in argument.
Because I see a lot of this: People say some bullshit, then get it refuted, and then try to weasel it into a win by claiming nothing counts, since it's only a message boad.
At any rate, the opinions that matter are those of the Venezuelan majority.
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)"nothing," and that what people in Venezuela thought was the only thing that really mattered.
Poster A then pointed out that by that standard, 99% of what was posted on Discussion Boards was "worthless."
Then Poster C - that would be you - came along and replied with some meaningless, irrelevant post count of Poster A. Poster A called attention to the meaningless irrelevancy of it, and Poster C doubled down with more non-responsive silliness about non-existent bullshit somewhere getting "refuted," followed by an reiteration of what Poster B had originally said: that the only opinions that mattered were those of the Venezuelan majority, putting us right back to square one.
What all this diversionary jazz has amounted to is that someone expressed an unfavorable opinion of Saint Hugo, and you and Poster B don't like it. So we get this clownish circular argument from Poster B & C that amounts to so much wasted pixels.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Edit: typo.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)Chavez bankrolls Cuba. there is no guarantee that the next Venezuelan leader will do the same.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Raul Castro's daughter Twit feed is like a random Marxist generator....
http://twitter.com/#!/marielacastro
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)it doesn't appear to have resulted in better communication with Cuba does it?
Mika
(17,751 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)...would be a positive result, in general (this is more of the darker side of the Cuban bloggers, but they can be more openly against other countries without risking their lives).
http://translatingcuba.com/?p=16054
You can see more Cuban bloggers writings on that site, but the translations are late. Be sure that they will all talk about this new development in a few days. If you can read Spanish or use Google Translate you can find their Spanish blogs and translate them.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)citizens of Venezuela know how much good President Chavez has done for them. He has had to occasionally suspend press "freedom" that was controlled by elite natives and an American government colluding with oil companies. President Chavez was overwhelmingly elected and re-elected by huge margins while international election committees confirmed their validity.
Read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins. Maybe that will give you a different perspective of what the few, courageous, populist leaders in South America have had to overcome (usually CIA assassination) to really help the indigenous people. Even after America committed one successful coup (for a few days) against President Chavez and a few foiled attempts, the vast majority of Venezuelans demanded his return to rule.
Sure he has very powerful, wealthy, corporate and American Govt. sponsored enemies yet he is still very popular with the majority of his constituents.
Imagine that you wanted to make your country a place where everyone was equal. Yet your country had been ruled as a corporate satellite for centuries. All of the wealthy (1%) and the most powerful country in the world were dedicated to keep your country under their control (4th largest oil supplies)...yes he had to shut down some press (like a populist American President might have to temporarily shut down a press that kept abdicating his demise despite the huge support of the 99%) and do some distasteful things to ensure the continuation of his anti-elitist policies.
Do some real investigating, not using American sources. The truth would surprise most Americans. Personally, I never thought he would survive this long. IMO, he is one of a handful of South American leaders that remained true to their vision of a fair and just homeland. He has survived longer than any in recent memory.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)His government didn't renew the license of a media outlet that participated in an attempted coup against the democratically elected government of Venezuela. And that was spun in the United States.
Mika
(17,751 posts)EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Always good to read you.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)The bullshit "they got their license revoked because they supported the coup" thing is bullshit. They got their license revoked because they didn't change their programing to suit the Venezuelan government. That's just a fact.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
frylock
(34,825 posts)something the haters can never explain.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)Because Venevisión is owned by a millionaire mogul and he changed the programming.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Rightly so. I can see you ginning up a similar defense if FOX's license was ever allowed to expire without renewal, let's say, because of the owning corporation's evident criminal history.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)They actually had them in the studio to announce the coup. They were right there in the thick of it.
Since you replied with pedantry I doubt you'll actually answer the question.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)joshcryer
(62,287 posts)...and that poster has never addressed why Venevision got to keep their license despite that they hosted the coupsters (they actually had them in their studios to announce the coup).
ChangoLoa
(2,010 posts)Will you still be applauding if one day chavista journalists get beaten the same way ?
I will still oppose state sponsored violence and political intimidation groups.
No end is good when the means are bad.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)I am sure he has been great for the very poor and disenfranchised.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)From Wikipedia:
Country Sources 2010 2011 Most recent
Honduras [7][8][9] 78 86 86
El Salvador [7][8][10] 66 71 71
Saint Kitts and Nevis [7][11][12] 38 68 68
Venezuela [13][14] 48 67 67
Belize [7][8][15][16] 42 39 39
Guatemala [7][8][17] 41 39 39
Jamaica [7][18] 52 39 39
Bahamas [19] 27 36 36
Colombia [20][21] 38 33 33
South Africa [22] 32 32
Dominican Republic [7][23] 25 31 31
Trinidad and Tobago [24][25] 37 28 28
...but don't let facts stop you.
hack89
(39,171 posts)You think that is a positive thing for Chavez? A reflection of a healthy society? A reflection of a well run country?
Care to comment on the food shortages and high inflation?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It doesn't.
It is unacceptably high, but then so are the rates in Central American and the Caribbean. Those countries are neither socialist nor led by Chavez, so the "It's Chavez' fault" or "It's socialism's fault" memes kind of fall flat.
I don't know that much about food shortages and inflation in Venezuela. They do seem to be problems associated with socialist(ic) economies. I wonder how they're doing on things like income equality.
hack89
(39,171 posts)that point still stands. It didn't use to be so bad - a 30 % increase in a couple of years can be blamed on Hugo.
EX500rider
(10,885 posts)Honduras is in Central America.
Prometheus Bound
(3,489 posts)What an ignorant man!
Response to hack89 (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
hack89
(39,171 posts)but it is still a horrible death that I would not wish on my worst enemy.
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)Ask the people he helped in the US with heating oil. Ask the people in Venezuela who have received land, health care, food. Or will you only ask the Venezuelan 1% who live mostly in the US and who have tried to overthrow his government since he was elected the first time?
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Thu May 31, 2012, 08:43 AM - Edit history (1)
he is still just another in a long line of South American strongmen. He led a failed military coup, his first act was to try to eliminate term limits so he could stay in office forever, he established a private army loyal only to him, and he holds up Castro and Cuba as a model emulate. He is not a supporter of democracy.
As for his people - he has given them skyrocketing crime rates with one of the highest murder rates in the world. There are food shortages and sky high inflation. Oil production which the country depends on has been steadily declining due to mismanagement and him driving away foreign investment. Greece shows us what happens when governments spend more than they have - that is what Chavez has done to Venezuela.
Rein in the propaganda a bit if you want to be taken seriously at all.
hack89
(39,171 posts)nanabugg
(2,198 posts)Such ridiculous unthoughtful statements are what makes people sound like fools.
Psephos
(8,032 posts)These animals are dead.
I opposed the war and its cretinous architects, but even I can acknowledge that a few good things came of it.
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)Psephos
(8,032 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)they seem happy he is gone.
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)the notion that they prefer a dictator from a minority group that ruled through violence and terror is nonsense.
I have no doubt they are unhappy that their country is a shambles. Doesn't mean they want to go back to the way it was (of course with the exception of those Baathists that benefited from Saddam.).
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)He was supposed to have an electoral defeat and his policies refuted, but now he'll become a martyr.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)may3rd
(593 posts)I didn't read the whole article. I know he travels to Cuba for medical help while Fidel travels to Spain for his health care issues.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)He has only a few more weeks to register as a candidate. My favorite theory is that Cuba is trying to force Chavez' hand by having a source release the information to Dan Rather.
There is no successor truly "groomed" to fill Chavez' place. He has a special kind of charisma that is very difficult to replace.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Chavez is an asshole, but I'd rather have a socialist asshole than a fascist one.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)I do consider Chavista's right wingers, though, so maybe that's what you're thinking of.
unkachuck
(6,295 posts)....if true, that's a shame....I rather liked Hugo....cancer is some nasty stuff; not a good way to go....
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)Several anonymous sources "have told me that they believe it is doubtful the dictator will live to see the results." (--from the OP)
This is absurd, and, quite frankly, I don't believe that Dan Rather wrote it (and, if he did, shame on you, Dan!).
Chavez is no more of a "dictator" than FDR was--who also got called a "dictator" by the rightwing assholes of his day.
The 1% don't like to pay their fair share. Haven't we learned that yet? And when the people manage to elect a leader who believes in fairness and who is not afraid to assert it, the 1% will do anything--anything!--to bring him down and furthermore to deny people the hope that, with grass roots effort, a real representative of the people can be elected and change things dramatically for the better. That latter target of the corpo-fascist "Big Lie" that Chavez is a "dictator" is us--you and me. They lie about Chavez and black-hole his supporters in so-called 'news' reports in order to hide the truth from us that (after we get rid of the corporate-run, 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines) WE can do the same! We can elect another FDR and vote ourselves another "New Deal."
Part of the Corporate Press "Big Lie" about Chavez is that it's all Chavez, you know, the "dictator"--not the fabulous organizers and tireless political volunteers at the grass roots level; it's not the poor; it's not the people demanding fairness and working for fairness--it's just this one guy--and that way, they can pummel and slander and lie through their teeth about Venezuela and the truly incredible, historic, leftist democracy movement that Venezuelans inspired throughout South America and into Central America, with leftist governments elected in Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Peru, Nicaragua and other places--all working closely with the Chavez government to expand democracy and social justice throughout the region.
They don't want you to know this--that ordinary people did this. They so badly don't want you to know it that they have created a very special "Big Lie" campaign--part of the lie being that Chavez is the only actor in Venezuela--that has been going on now, throughout the Corporate Press with no exceptions, since 2002 and RCTV's and the Bushwhacks' failed coup against the elected Chavez government.
They couldn't bring him down with a coup (because the Venezuelan people poured into the streets, in the tens of thousands, and convinced the loyal part of the military to stop it), nor with an oil bosses' strike (to destroy Venezuela's economy), nor with a USAID-funded recall election (Chavez won it, hands down), nor with any other traditional method of destroying LatAm democracies, thus the slander campaign--unbelievably intense, day in, day out, suspiciously uniform and monotonous in its negative headlines and bullshit 'news' stories, and very long lasting--going on for a decade now.
Another part of their "Big Lie" campaign is to NEVER tell you the REASONS that people have voted overwhelmingly for the Chavez government, over several elections. They NEVER tell you that Chavez government policy has cut poverty in half and extreme poverty by over 70%, has wiped out illiteracy in Venezuela, and recently earned designation as "THE most equal country in Latin America" on income distribution, by the UN Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean. They NEVER tell you that Chavez government spending policy--completely opposed to "austerity"--drove Venezuela's economic growth rate to 10% and above, over a five year period (2003 to 2008) and is now back up to 7% despite the Bushwhack-instigated Depression that has hit us and Europe.
Never! Not one word! Are Venezuela voters stupids? That's what they want you to believe. Actually, they don't want you to think at all about Venezuela voters. They want you to think that Chavez somehow installed himself. They want you to think "dictator"--not genuinely popular, not FDR-like, not responsive to the people, not doing the will of the people, not grass roots organizing and transparent vote counting can produce change for the better, not the poor rising up and peacefully electing and re-electing a good government and defending it when the Bushwhack-supported asshole fascists tried to bring it down. Chavez elects himself and "dictates" to Exxon Mobil. Oops! No, they don't want you to know what Chavez did to Exxon Mobil, cuz most of us would agree with it. (Half the oil profits for education and other helps to poor, and, if Exxon Mobil doesn't like it, they can lump it--which they did; they walked out of the negotiation.) (And the gap was soon filled by many other oil companies, anxious for the business.) They don't want you to think about US having a president like that.
Absurd and funny. This "dictator"--Chavez--subjecting himself to the judgment of the voters, in an election system that is far, FAR more honest and transparent than our own?
"...it is doubtful the dictator will live to see the results." LOL!
This report has every indicator of disinformation. It is a type-case of rumor-mongering, from "the highly respected source close to Chavez" to the "danger" that this anonymous source supposedly faces if his or her name should be used, to the piling on of sources--"several sources," all of them anonymous, all facing "danger."
Really, it's laughable. Did Karl Rove write this and put it out under Dan Rather's name as a dirty trick?
This is the smell.
-------------------
Is it true (that Chavez is in the "end stage of cancer" ? This odorous report makes it seem unlikely. It's so very like Rovian tactics to depress voters, make them stay home. (But also very amateurish--for instance, letting the word "dictator" stay in there.) I just saw a vid of Chavez taken during a live broadcast of a meeting, two weeks ago. The meeting lasted several hours, all before the cameras. He looked happy, healthy and well--and energetic. He did NOT look like a man "in the end stage of cancer." There has not been even the slightest whisper that this live broadcast was somehow faked. A man enduring "the end stage of cancer" would not likely have been able to look so well for such a long period of time.
The government secrecy about the details of his illness and treatment does not necessarily mean that it's far advanced or fatal. The government could have MANY reasons for such secrecy other than that the illness is fatal. For instance, they wouldn't want economic indicators to be bouncing up and down over every medical report, and over every medical prognosticator's pronouncements (especially those of the corpo-fascist media). Denying them details possibly curtails such speculation and rightwing obsessiveness (or they thought it would). There are other political and security considerations as well. The secrecy is not surprising and simply doesn't tell us much. Also, Chavez may have personally requested privacy. (He said, early on, that it's in his pelvic region--and perhaps he just doesn't want crude jokes told about him--people leering over his penis or whatever.)
Having said all this, I have to say that it's POSSIBLE that he is dying. What if it's true? What will happen in Venezuela?
The same thing will happen in Venezuela that would happen in ANY democracy, in similar circumstances. They have laws for this, like we do and like everybody does. How can anybody think that there would be another coup d'etat, after what happened the last time? Venezuelans simply wouldn't put up with it, nor would the military, nor would the many other leftist leaders in other South American countries who have been elected since 2002. Furthermore, Venezuela is in fact a very stable country. Chavez has provided them with the most stable government they've had for half a century. Citizen participation is at its highest level. Venezuelans rate their own country one of the highest in the world on their own well-being and future prospects. They are the most equal country in Latin America. Equality fosters stability. There is no reason to think that fascist elements within or outside of Venezuela would succeed in another coup plot, if they are foolish enough to be hatching one.
There are several scenarios that could occur. Chavez dies soon, months before the election. Chavez dies close to the election, or days after the election, or some time after the election. If he dies and there is time to nominate another Leftist candidate and change the ballot, I would expect that there is a law providing for that, as for these other possibilities, and possibly a law for postponing the election to allow time for Chavez's party to nominate a new candidate and for that candidate to have a campaign (although this is a Constitutionally timed election--and I don't know if there is a law permitting postponement). If Chavez lives through the election and wins the election (as he probably would) but dies soon afterward, his vice president (Elías Jaua) would become president.
Elías Jaua: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El%C3%ADas_Jaua
There are also other strong leaders to take up Chavez's mantel, if there is a primary contest for the presidential nomination. And, finally, Venezuela's Electoral Commission is surely prepared for any eventuality. They are one of the best in the world, repeatedly lauded by all the major international election monitoring groups. There will be no disruption. There will be no coup. And any efforts to sow confusion or to destabilize Venezuela, if Chavez dies, will be firmly squelched. The rule of law will prevail. The truth is that Chavez has created a good, beneficial, stable government, and stable institutions, in a stable and prosperous country that has been set firmly on a progressive path--all the crapola from the corpo-fascist media to the contrary notwithstanding. Most people here will be amazed by how smoothly such a transition goes, because they have been thoroughly disinformed and brainwashed about Venezuela.
What will happen with Capriles, the rightwing candidate, if Chavez dies before or around the election? I just read a report on polls that gave Chavez a 20% to 30% lead over Capriles. I don't know if all polls confirm such a big lead but Chavez likely has the edge by a comfortable margin. I doubt that his death could elect Capriles--but even if it did, so what? Capriles is a tool of big business and the rich, and probably of the far right agents of the 2002 coup, and probably also a tool of the U.S. and its transglobal corporate rulers. He is similar to Sebastian Pinera in Chile, a sort of "wolf in sheep's clothing," who, once people get on to his real policies, plunges to a 25% approval rating. That will likely be Capriles' fate--he will be a lame duck for the latter half of his term, due to unpopularity. Capriles could do some damage to Venezuela in a six year term. But do remember that Venezuelans voted themselves the constitutional right to recall the president. Also, the popularly elected National Assembly will likely limit the damage he can do.
Many people have been given the very false impression that Chavez turned the presidency into a "dictatorship," that he could do whatever he wanted to, that he exercised arbitrary power and that a new president would step into a "dictator"'s position. These things are simply not true. Chavez is popular and powerful in much the same way that Roosevelt was popular and powerful. Roosevelt had to submit his programs to a popularly elected congress, just as Chavez has had to do. Among these powers was the power to curtail the banksters, for instance. (Don't we wish we still had it.) Venezuela's popularly elected National Assembly VOTED to give Chavez certain time-limited and project-limited powers to solve a drastic housing problem caused by flooding, for instance. Such powers are COMMON in LatAm countries and bear the unfortunate title of "powers of decree." Lula da Silva exercised such powers in Brazil to protect a wide swath of the Amazon for an uncontacted indigenous tribe. Projects like re-building an entire town, or protecting a swath of the Amazon, are complicated, fraught with many decisions and difficulties, take a lot time and require executive authority on numerous kinds of issues. Many LatAm legislatures turn such projects over to the president and say, "Do it!"
And the legislatures can rescind such powers at any time. Chavez, like FDR, was blessed with a politically compatible legislature because the people voted for the legislators!. Was FDR a "dictator" and the "New Deal" a "dictatorial" program because FDR and Congress (both elected by the people) were in agreement on it? The 1% certainly thought so. They couldn't accept how totally and completely their misrule had been rejected (and have been working hard ever since to deny us that right). To them, FDR was a tyrant. To most Americans, FDR was just doing the job he was elected to do. It is the same with Chavez. Venezuelans have overwhelmingly supported his program.
But Capriles, should he somehow win by default, won't have a compatible legislature unless he somehow fools the Chavista legislators into introducing voting machines run on 'TRADE SECRET' code, owned and largely controlled by one, private, far rightwing-connected corporation, as we have here. Then, eventually, he will have a legislature like our current Diebold Congress. But that is very, very unlikely to happen in Venezuela. Venezuelan voters are orders of magnitude smarter than our own, and they don't have political party leaders like ours who help the rightwing do their worst.
I wish Hugo Chavez well. He has helped to create a LASTING revolution, by being RESPONSIVE to the people who elected him and changing Venezuela for the better with courage and determination. The Bolivarian Revolution will survive him because it was created by, and always has been about, the people of Venezuela, not about him. I think he knows this, and Venezuelans know it. It is THEIR revolution. And it is, in many ways, also Latin America's revolution, taken as a whole--the revolution of the vast poor majority throughout the region. It will reverberate through history for centuries to come. It is very like our own revolution, in its ability to inspire others. Some day--hopefully soon--our people will recognize it as such. Maybe then we will recover our own "New Deal" and the democratic ideals of 1776, and of so many social movements following 1776, that made the "New Deal" possible.
joshcryer
(62,287 posts)...then it would have an entirely different meaning. I think Dan Rather was quoting someone there as I don't see him saying something like that.
ChangoLoa
(2,010 posts)before a new election... of course, according to the Constitution.
But coming from the same people that black list 5 million of opponents (excluding them from public administration jobs, public subsidies and state sponsored loan schemes) in a country of 18 million adults, I would expect anything. Be sure of something though: they would never manage such a trick even if they tried.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
inna
(8,809 posts)thank you
hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Thu May 31, 2012, 08:45 AM - Edit history (1)
he is still just another in a long line of South American strongmen. He led a failed military coup, his first act was to try to eliminate term limits so he could stay in office forever, he established a private army loyal only to him, and he holds up Castro and Cuba as a model emulate. He is not a supporter of democracy.
As for his people - he has given them skyrocketing crime rates with one of the highest murder rates in the world. There are food shortages and sky high inflation. Oil production which the country depends on has been steadily declining due to mismanagement and him driving away foreign investment. Greece shows us what happens when governments spend more than they have - that is what Chavez has done to Venezuela.
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)Yup, but that was, a) after the government had shot and killed hundreds of poor protestors, and b) he spent two years in prison for his part in it, and during his imprisonment became a huge popular hero and was subsequently elected president. You left out the context.
"...his first act was to try to eliminate term limits so he could stay in office forever..."
Huh? He was elected in 1998 (for a short term prior to the vote on the new constitution), then again in 2000, then won the USAID-funded recall election in 2004, then won the 2006 regular election. In 2007, the National Assembly put a package of 69 amendments to the constitution on the ballot for a vote of the people. One of those amendments was to rescind the two-term limit on the president. The voters voted it all down--probably because it was too complicated (too many different issues), and probably also because the rightwing Catholic prelates opposed the amendment giving equal rights to women. The package of amendments lost very narrowly, but the Chavez government accepted the results and moved on. They then put a single issue on the ballot--rescinding term limits on the president and on governors. The voters voted FOR it. (This settled the question of whether the term limit amendment caused the 69-amendment package to fail. It did not. The voters wanted to lift term limits.)
This, a) was not Chavez's "first act" as president; b) was not "Chavez's act" at all, but the act of Venezuelan voters, and c) by no means insures that Chavez "could stay in office forever"--he has to run again, and be judged by the voters again (just like our FDR who ran for and won four terms in office).
"...he established a private army loyal only to him."
The Venezuelan military is not "private." It's like any other army in a democratic country, loyal to the constitution and under the command of the elected president. A small number of military officers participated in the rightwing coup d'tat attempt in 2002. They were fired--as they well should have been.
Where on earth are you getting these ideas from?
"...he holds up Castro and Cuba as a model (to) emulate. He is not a supporter of democracy."
And George Bush Jr. held up crime boss Alvaro Uribe, 'president' of Colombia, as a model of freedom and awarded him the U.S. Medal of Freedom, evidently considering the murders of hundreds of trade unionists, teachers, community activists, peasants, journalists and others to be the ultimate in "freedom." Where is your condemnation of THAT?
There is no question that Chavez and many other Latin Americans admire Cuba. Does this make them non-democratic? What they mostly admire is the Cuban medical system and the Cuban educational system--both among the best in the world. Latin America is unanimous on recognizing Cuba's communist government as the legitimate government of Cuba. But none of these countries, including Venezuela, has abandoned its own democratic system. Chavez stands for election, in a fair and honest system; he obeys the constitution and the law; he has worked democratically through the National Assembly and other institutions to improve the lot of the poor in Venezuela, and to expand citizen participation and the inclusion of previously excluded groups. It is absurd and wrong to say that "he is not a supporter of democracy." He very much is.
Of your other rightwing 'talking points' (the blather about inflation, etc., are giveaways), the one about Greece is the most rightwing of all. The lesson of the "New Deal" is that government MUST spend "more than they have" in a situation of massive misrule by the rich, such as occurred in the Great Crash of '29, and today, by the Great Looting that has been inflicted on the U.S. and Europe by transglobal banksters, the very rich and war profiteers. Government MUST put money into the hands of the poor in these circumstances. The poor will re-start the economy because they have to spend their money--on food, on clothing, on housing, on transportation, on medicine, on education. It is absolutely wrong (self-defeating, stupid) to tighten money in this situation and to fire masses of government workers. Wrong and crazy.
In any case, Venezuela is not hard up. The Chavez government amassed huge cash reserves during their highest economic growth period (2003 to 2008), and used those reserves very wisely to cushion the Venezuelan people and their economy against the crimes of "Wall Street" and the Bush Junta. Venezuela rode out the initial shocks very well and very quickly recovered. Why? Because the government did NOT curtail government spending. Also, wages have kept pace with inflation and unemployment is very low. There are REASONS that the UN Economic Commission gave Venezuela such high marks. You are ignoring them all.
There are problems in Venezuela as there are in every country. You--like the corpo-fascist media and like the rightwing here and there--ONLY MENTION THE PROBLEMS. This is highly distorted. And I hope this is because you have been so very disinformed by the Corporate Media, which does the very same thing--headlines whatever problems they can point to, or invent, and NEVER MENTIONS WHY Venezuelans have voted for the Chavez government, over several elections, by big margins, in a fair and honest election system. NEVER do they mention the millions of people who now have educational opportunities, free medical care, jobs, good wages and a positive view of their lives and their country! NEVER do they describe, interview or quote the people who vote for the Chavez government, or those many grass roots volunteers who put the Chavez government in office, or any of the people benefiting from Venezuela's "New Deal."
If you want to truly discuss countries gone to wrack and ruin, start with this one--the USA. Or how about discussing Venezuela pre-Chavez, hm? Venezuelans have never had such a good government--that's why they keep voting for it! And, lucky for them--or rather, thanks to those who did the hard civic work--they have an election system that counts all the votes.
hack89
(39,171 posts)what are we going to talk about then?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Thank you for putting it into words and sharing with us. How many are the voices of the right and how few the voices of the left -- when it comes to getting aired or published... or heard.
adigal
(7,581 posts)It's a nasty cancer.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Anything that refers to the elected president of a constitutional democracy as a "dictator" is an editorial. It may contain news, but it is propaganda by definition. Doesn't matter who wrote it or where it appeared. This should not be in LBN. Our local dispensers of anti-Chavez hate speech should not be allowed to abuse the LBN rules like this.
hack89
(39,171 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Would it not be propaganda by definition?
Here's an example of how a single word can render a story into propaganda - remember, it's just a joke:
Hack89 Posts Thread At Democratic Underground
(Fancy News Service). Today, Hack89 posted a thread about interesting news from Venezuela on the Latest Breaking News forum of Democratic Underground. This is one of many such threads posted on LBN by the convicted murderer.
So I'm sure you agree with the facts of the story. Just because we disagree about a little over-enthusiastic labeling, that doesn't make it propaganda, does it?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Last edited Thu May 31, 2012, 04:36 PM - Edit history (2)
the story as written is in line with what we know about his medical condition and explains some of his recent activities. I posted the story because of the cancer and honestly didn't pay much mind to the label that was applied to him.
I personally won't go as far as to call Hugo a dictator - I see him more as just another in a long line of South American strong men.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)a story with news in it incidentally called the elected president of the US a dictator. Would you consider that a news story, or propaganda?
hack89
(39,171 posts)and the rest of the story made sense it would be news. It the word was inserted to attack him then it would not be news.
The OP is about Hugo's cancer - calling him a dictator is irrelevant to that issue.
RZM
(8,556 posts)I don't get too involved in the Hugo wars because I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way. But describing anti-Chavez posts as 'hate speech' is laughably over the top.
Is it 'hate speech' when we're talking about Bush, Romney, or the orange one? Or is 'hate speech' reserved for criticisms of people you support?
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Calling the fairly elected president of a constitutional democracy a "dictator" in a putative news story is a clear case of a) lying and b) propaganda. Therefore it is no longer a news story, whether or not it contains real news. Distortions and lies that demonize are hate speech. This thread and many others are full of hateful, ignorant invective directed against the majority of the Venezuelan people and their repeatedly expressed will to elect Chavez in democratic elections.
RZM
(8,556 posts)You said 'hate speech.' That's what I reacted to.
Bad_Ronald
(265 posts)Where else on the the web can you read priceless phrases like: "Good ol' generic psy-ops", and a story "supposedly from Dan Rather"?
Whenever I'm feeling a bit down, I come here & scour the forums for extreme pro & anti Chavez threads & comments and enjoy a good laugh. You guys never disappoint. Thanks!
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)He's not dead yet, and all your wishful thinking and sanctimonious bullshit (I would not wish such a death blah blah blah) will not make it so.
hack89
(39,171 posts)St Hugo doesn't bother me that much - he is a bit player in the grand scheme of things. The reaction of his acolytes make for interesting threads though.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)for the first ten years of this century. And all your silly insults don't change that. LOL
hack89
(39,171 posts)what has he done that will be remembered 10 years from now? Another strongman will step in right behind him and the beat will go on.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)n
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)what the facts are in other parts of the civilized world. Chavez is none of our business, yet as the Wikileaks cables revealed, the old Colonial powers, now allied with the US, ironically, are royally pissed of because he dared to reclaim control of his country's resources. They cannot stand when an upstart brown person from one of their former stomping grounds, where there was never a dictator they didn't love, actually manages to get along without them and bring real democracy to their people.
Chavez does what is best for HIS country. His people obviously agree as they have elected him over and over again, (our elections should be so clean) and the opinions of former colonial states, supporters of dictators, really do not count for much anywhere, except in their own minds.
South America has moved away from the US supported dictatorships, that part of the world is progressing, and gives me hope that there can be a better world where war criminals are held accountable, where the resources of a country are used for the benefit of the people, where people come first.
Maybe we should emulate them a little bit, especially their focus on people rather than Corporate profiteering which is destroying the formerly first world nations. We should, iow, mind our business because it sure needs minding and we really are not in a position to criticize anyone these days.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)so I don't see any difference to the US. Chavez does what is best for him. Opinions from the outside may not matter but everyone is still entitled to theirs. You can practice what you preach and mind your own business, but I'll express my own opinions as I see fit.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)THEY decide who to sell it to, who to contract out to. Unlike Iraq whose government signed over more than 80% of its oil resources to International Oil Corps, the reason for all the protests there, which of course were brutally suppressed by the puppet government.
Chavez works for the people of Venezuela and has done a hell of a lot more for his people than our government is currently doing for us. As I said, their business is their business, and the only reason for the intense interest in it here is because it is an oil producing country and we don't control it.
No one told you not to express how you feel, someone disagreed with you, that's all.
hack89
(39,171 posts)so don't be so sure that he is doing much for his people.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And you mean 'some of us do not have food shortages'. Have you read the stats on poverty in the US lately, especially child poverty? And as with this country regarding violent crime, it depends on what part of the country you live in. DC and Chicago, eg, don't have high rates of violent crime?
As I said, we have enough problems of our own to have time to worry about other people's business.
How about some of our allies btw? Uzbekistan? Where people have been boiled in oil for speaking out about that dictatorship? Saudi Arabia? Bahrain? Yemen? Odd to see all the angst over a Democratically elected president in a S. American country while never a word about those dictatorships. Seems to me there is something a bit strange about where the US puts its energies. Makes you wonder if it's the people are worried about, doesn't it?
hack89
(39,171 posts)no difference here.
Venezuelan society is fraying at the edges - skyrocketing crime, food shortages and high inflation are not the signs of a healthy country.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the French, America, Iceland just to name a few. What is your point? Have you been paying attention to what is happening in Europe? A second major crash is expected, Spain looks like the next Greece, or Italy, Portugal maybe. Who goes first is the question. This is the fault of runaway, unregulated Capitalism which has infected the economies of the world. No doubt South American countries are also affected.
Compared to those European nations, Venezuela is looking good.
But you didn't answer my question. Why are some people so obsessed with a country that is free and democratic, while ignoring our allies in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Uzbekistan et al. Those societies are not just 'fraying around the edges' they are over the edge and have been for a long time, dictatorships where you will be tortured and even put to death for being Gay or a woman who dares to drive, or go out without a man.
Interesting to see the priorities of some people in this country.
aquart
(69,014 posts)I'll be sorry to see him go.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)...and that they get someone less bombastic. I will pray for his soul even though i did not like him much.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Reminding me of the New York paper whose article on Kennedy's assassination had an ad for flights to Dallas.