George Zimmerman had a broken nose, two cuts and two black eyes: ABC News report
Source: ABC News
The day after he killed Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman showed up at a doctors office with a broken nose, two black eyes and two small cuts on the back of his head, ABC News reported Tuesday.
According to medical records obtained by the network, he also had a minor back injury.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/15/2801162/george-zimmerman-had-a-broken.html#storylink=cpy
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Life threatening at the LEAST...
Forgive me...I don't know how to embed that lovely drippy sarcasm thing..
surrealAmerican
(11,368 posts)Just click the "smilies" button between the "reply tiltle" and the "message text". Then click the "..." button to get the second set of smilies. Then click the dripping "sarcasm", and it will appear in your message.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Appreciate it...been here forever, just really started talking back regularly.
patrice
(47,992 posts)rwsanders
(2,614 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)This raises serious questions about the State prosecution. Medical reports made the next day probably not admissible if a doubt about authenticity is raised. It is, of course, unlikely the prosecution will now object to its own evidence. Obviously, the defense won't raise any objection to this.
Is Florida really trying to convict GZ?
northoftheborder
(7,575 posts)Control-Z
(15,682 posts)All this time I thought that was a smillie for "...". You know. To fill the subject line when we want to jump straight to text without subject.
Boy, am I embarrassed. I guess I would have figured it out when I got around to trying it out.
Evasporque
(2,133 posts)type the word sarcasm within a colon at the beginning and end.
":"sarcasm":" (ignore the quotations)
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Which when I type into the message text box looks like this
The reason it doesn't turn into a gif in the Reply title is because the reply title doesn't see it as the code for a gif.
Gman
(24,780 posts)He looked fine at the station.
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)where those two black eyes were in the video, looks like he's not even swollen.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)ABC is a font of disinformation on this subject.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)The medical reports included in the prosecutions evidence identify black eyes and a broken nose. Maybe they are falsified or incorrect or whatever. Who knows? But apparently there are medical reports that identify those things.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)He doesn't have a scratch on him 45 minutes after the event. That was not the face of someone with a broken nose and two black eyes. I believe my own eyes, and ABC has no credibility on this one.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I doubt it, but you might be right.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)obvious. The only pertinent medical evidence would be the testimony of the medical personnel on the scene at the time of the crime and perhaps that of the Officers who first arrived.
State should move to suppress, or the Judge should hold that this "evidence" is to be given little or no weight.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)That is possible, though not terribly likely given that he was not charged with a crime at the time, and most people won't do that sort of thing. The police (or was it the EMT's?) did report blood from nose and cut in back of head. That might lend more credibility to the next day examination by the doctor.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)He (or his father) was legally sophisticated enough to build or embellish a case for self-defense as much as possible. There's no question that Zimmerman, Sr. was intimately involved in talking the State Attorney and Chief of Police out of pressing charges.
The idea for Zimmerman to be examined by the family physician was likely also the father's, and it should be given little or no weight. Not in a court of law, and not here - but, there are those who now hold this "evidence" up as absolute solid proof of self-defense. It isn't even necessarily admissible evidence.
I don't personally know what the police report or the EMT's interview actually rveals. Do you? But, that could and should be given weight, even if the testimony by the cops is potentially impeachable.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)"There's no question that Zimmerman, Sr. was intimately involved in talking the State Attorney and Chief of Police out of pressing charges." Really? What evidence do you have that he was "intimately involved"?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)This from the NYT account: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?pagewanted=all
Mr. Zimmermans father watched from nearby. They started where his vehicle was, he recalled. They walked him down the sidewalk and to the end of the sidewalk, to the street where he got an address and then walked him back towards his vehicle, near where the incident occurred.
Do you doubt that Zimmerman, Sr. coached his son's testimony, and that management of the production of evidence didn't influence the decision by the State's Attorney and the Police Chief to not charge him after the shooting? I used the term "talking" too loosely, but in effect Zimmerman's father was highly influential. Apparently, his stage management of the case is at work again today.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I would hope that he coached his son. Whether innocent or guilty, it is important to be very cautious when dealing with the police.
edcantor
(325 posts)The bottom line is the location of the shooting, the location of the altercation, and the injuries observed by the medical personnel attending to the surviving party at the moments immediately AFTER the encounter, observations that did NOT warrant sending GZ for IMMEDIATE medical attention, and observations by video recorder 45 minutes after the deadly shooting wherein we see no apparent injuries on GZ on video, as he prances into the police station, getting a few specs of grass or leaves or dirt brushed off him by police personnel. No police personnel are paying any attention to his injured nose, eyes, or head. They are not even wearing gloves in contact with him and his clothes.
GZ had those records falsified or had someone injure him later to make sure he had a defense.
Cave_Johnson
(137 posts)I had taken a shot to the head and that shiner didn't show up for at least 36 hours.
Kingofalldems
(38,508 posts)You sure do.
Cave_Johnson
(137 posts)... but some things are not as clear as others make them out to be.
xtraxritical
(3,576 posts)edcantor
(325 posts)the next day with some injuries. That's all we know.
auburngrad82
(5,029 posts)I'm just curious. It doesn't take long for a broken nose to show up. That kind of damage is pretty quick to show. Bruises can take a while but a broken nose swells and shows almost immediately.
mopinko
(70,337 posts)Gman
(24,780 posts)nothing on the back of his head. There wasn't a thing wrong with him.
patrice
(47,992 posts)prosecution for murder of one degree or another.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Response to dkf (Reply #116)
dpibel This message was self-deleted by its author.
patrice
(47,992 posts)if Trayvon did do this, these aren't life threatening injuries.
Let's hear some estimates of what it actually takes to be ABLE to beat someone to death.
Trayvon wasn't even remotely close to that ability, nor the opportunity here.
And, **IF** the kid DID do this, he must have had the heart of a lion to do so against an armed attacker in the dark. I kind of wish he had turned tail and run, to be alive this day, but Z, as he had already clearly demonstrated would have pursued without cause and Tray at minimum could have probably been arrested when caught, for being suspicious. Maybe he didn't want to be arrested FOR NOTHING, maybe he thought TTE "I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't", so he fought. If he'd been mine I would REALLY wish he had run, I kind of do anyway, but I am glad that he had the heart to stand for his rights as a human being. I wish he hadn't had to die for it, which is exactly what SYG forces and the defense are going to try to establish.
Think of the precedent set for ALL Americans.
naaman fletcher
(7,362 posts)"Let's hear some estimates of what it actually takes to be ABLE to beat someone to death.
Trayvon wasn't even remotely close to that ability, nor the opportunity here."
I don't think he was doing that, but he was certainly able. One good blow could kill someone, and it has often. Theoretically anyone of average size could beat someone to death. happens all the time.
patrice
(47,992 posts)and other possibly more likely hypothetical instances, such as the different permutations of: amounts of force, delivered in what location or combinations of locations, how many times, how fast etc. are irrelevant?
naaman fletcher
(7,362 posts)Any decent sized man or woman is a deadly threat if they are pummeling you. I am not defending Zimmerman... he provoked it, but we don't need to act like suddenly getting jumped and pummeled (which I don't think happened, but if it did) is somehow not a deadly threat. There is no court in the country that would agree with you.
edcantor
(325 posts)If you do have such, bring it forward.
Injuries on his knuckles a few seconds before his heart stopped bleeding after being shot to death? I doubt you have much, but let's see them.
Dogtown
(4,668 posts)no more than a quarter-inch in size on his left ring finger below the knuckle."
Pitiful straw-clutching, dkf.
Dogtown
(4,668 posts)no more than a quarter-inch in size on his left ring finger below the knuckle."
Maybe he scraped his knuckle during death-throes after being shot by a racist?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)but it seems like you only wait when the evidence indicates something negative about Zimmerman.
24601
(3,967 posts)were taken by an iPhone at the scene and shown by ABC news.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)Hardly sounds life threatening!
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)It is reasonable belief of GBI or death. The same reasonable man standard used to evaluate the appropriateness of deadly force in all 50 states and under Federal law.
Based on the words in the headline, an argument could be made that Zimmerman was unexpectedly attacked, and in the opening round of blows, was on his back, had cracked his head on the ground and had been hit repeatedly about the head. If true, that would be a pretty powerful argument for self defense. Then again, it could all be fraud and lies. Going to be interesting to see what the documented physical evidence shows.
Cave_Johnson
(137 posts)You don't have to actually be beaten to death to prove that the attack put you in fear for your life.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)To little context and too few facts to make any good judgements yet.
Lost-in-FL
(7,093 posts)BlueIris
(29,135 posts)The racism there is off the charts. Scary.
Response to Vattel (Original post)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
cstanleytech
(26,349 posts)hospital right away its not impossible he is telling the truth either.
What I wonder is what the reports for the police officers on the scene say about his condition.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)And as of this evening, we still don't know if pictures were taken or what they look like.
exboyfil
(17,865 posts)and like completely photograph George Zimmerman and document everything? That seems like it would be SOP for a homocide investigation.
Black eyes can take a while to form. My daughter was tripped in the hallway at school and landed on her forehead very severely. All of the swelling eventually drained down around her eyes and she looked like a raccoon. The joke was in the store that she say to me, "Daddy don't hit me again." Her black eyes were shocking. It still makes me cringe when I see the photos. The initial bump did not look that severe.
Overseas
(12,121 posts)through his many many 911 calls, helped him out after the video we saw. Helped him make the murder he had committed look more justifiable. If so, they are accessories to the crime.
goclark
(30,404 posts)like he owned the place!
Here we going again ~ Travon was the Victim!
A disgrace
Roland99
(53,342 posts)no bruises on his face
no cuts on his face
couldn't see anything with his hands.
the truth will out!
kayakjohnny
(5,235 posts)just having killed someone and all.
GoCubsGo
(32,100 posts)If he didn't want a couple of black eyes, he should have listened to the police when they told him stay away. If he stalked me, I'd give him a couple of black eyes, too.
Turbineguy
(37,412 posts)of a Twinkie Defense. The meds made him do it.
doc03
(35,442 posts)he had someone hit him or did it himself after leaving the police station.
Turbineguy
(37,412 posts)should carry guns at all times. There should be nothing to prevent them from making a decision to shoot somebody.
doc03
(35,442 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Rozlee
(2,529 posts)"By the size of the bruise, it's depth, and expanse, I would say the assailant was probably 5'8, weighed 189 lbs, was Caucasian and liked to watch 'The Amazing Race.'" But, of course, this isn't CSI and the doc probably didn't even take close-up pics.
muntrv
(14,505 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Brigid
(17,621 posts)My dad used to say he knew how to get a hit man out of East St. Louis for free.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Requires hands-on application.
frogmarch
(12,161 posts)since in the photos of him at the police station he looked okay.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)no blood, no puffy face.
I had my nose broken once and there was lots of blood and I was immediately taken to a hospital.
enough
(13,270 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)Even with these kinds of injuries, HOW could he think his life was in danger, HOW could he think an unarmed KID COULD kill him; he's the one with the gun!
savalez
(3,517 posts)if someone starts a fight they cannot finish are they then allowed to use a gun?
That said, the police most likely have photos of him and the victim. If they don't, well, then something is terribly wrong.
patrice
(47,992 posts)had to "decide" if "his life was in danger or not".
savalez
(3,517 posts)accosted a kid for just walking down the street he wouldn't have had to make that decision at all. That's the point. His own actions instigated the event. Whether or not he felt his life was in danger after the fact is irrelevant. I'm glad they are now considering the event in its entirety. The first police assessment and the subsequent storing of the victims body for three days was baffling.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Here is the Florida statute - sections (a) and (b) answer your question. I have no idea how they apply in this case.
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
minavasht
(413 posts)the shooting?
Is there a set limit when it is OK to shoot?
Broken nose apparently is not OK.
Cuts to your head are also not OK.
Maybe a broken nose and a broken jaw? How about two broken arms? How many broken ribs are enough - you have a bunch anyway, maybe we set the limit at 5?
How about slamming your head into concrete? Are 3 times enough? Maybe 25?
And who keeps the count? Do you ask for a timeout to do an inventory and if you are below the limit, let him beat you up some more, before you can shoot?
BTW, in 2010 5.8% of the reported murders were committed with bare hands. Look it up, it happens all the time.
patrice
(47,992 posts)close to some legal definition his experience is?
Or that we do that assessment after the fact?
If we're supposed to do it after the fact, where's the individual's responsibility in situ to recognize when the line has been crossed, or not, and get it right or suffer the consequences?
patrice
(47,992 posts)to death? Compared to what it takes to kill someone with a gun,
We weren't there at the time. We don't know how he felt when he was being punched. We know he had a broken nose and many smaller injuries to his head.
Maybe you box regularly and can take many punches to your head. Maybe you are used to have your nose broken by a stranger. Maybe you can fight off somebody who is stronger that you and has you on the ground. To most people this would feel like a life or death situation. Do you expect them to wait until they are dying before they shoot their attacker?
patrice
(47,992 posts)Law wouldn't work at all if it adjudicated on the grounds of something as ephemeral as feelings/emotions.
Lots of things FEEL bad, but are rationally efficacious. Lots of things FEEL good, but are rationally bad.
You are right, he might feel like it was life or death, but he has a RATIONAL responsibility to ascertain whether that feeling is correct or not, especially since the other person is unarmed and HE is the one with the gun.
Z was SUPPOSED to figure it out. The law says there are consequences for deciding wrongly.
His responsibility is commensurate with his power, the gun, a greater power than Trayvon had, therefore much more responsibility for getting it right.
If he had been responsible enough to get it figured out right, Trayvon would be alive, and justly so, and Zimmerman would be a free man. He didn't just fuck up. He fucked up BIG, because of the gun. He must pay the price.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)The standard is reasonable fear of GBI or death. That is not the same as some after action analysis by a bunch of suits.
- Whether your attacker is unarmed (or not) is not relevant
- There is no commensurate standard/responsibility in the law.
What it boils down to is would a reasonable person in similar circumstances believe that they were at immediate risk of GBI or death. FL is not alone in that standard, it is used nationwide.
Due to the withholding of the evidence from the public, none of us have an adequate basis for informed judgement. While like many I have a hard time seeing how it could not be a crime, the honest answer is we really don't have enough information. I expect a few more surprised before this is done.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)anyone thinks it is?
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)However IME its like porn. You know the difference between it and adult sex ed when you see it. Jurors experience and background also figure into it and the results vary wildly.
Because of the capriciousness of both the prosecution and juries is one of the reasons behind the rapid and popular acceptance of Castle Doctrine and Stand Your ground. Less opportunity for wildly divergent results and a somewhat more measurable standard
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)it seems like he mostly feared black people. unreasonably.
i love how a few here will trumpet one little inconclusive thing and say that it outweighs that an unarmed boy who ended up dead, shot to death by a guy that followed him, a guy with a history of violence and known paranoia and bias towards black people.
but i guess your point is that to exonerate the killing of a black boy, one only needs a little scant evidence and the killing becomes reasonable.
whatever.
your priority is casting doubt on the dead boy, hope you are proud.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)You clearly are clueless about them. What some trivialize and dismiss are going to be the tipping points on this in the legal system.
Important data has actively been suppressed by the prosecutor and now it looks like the defense want to do some of that as well. Never a good sign.
Your screed has several disputed points, but they are not all that important legally. Rant about them as you will.
I have always stated that I beleive Zimmerman is guilty of something on the order of manslaughter.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)When you've got the gun and more importantly when you start the fight, you don't get to shoot in self defense.
minavasht
(413 posts)showing that he started the fight?
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)He was the instigator of confrontation.
Cave_Johnson
(137 posts)I dunno what happened but you went one step too far.
At least from an objective viewpoint...
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Zimmerman paused to call 911, was told to stop chasing him. Zimmerman choose to ignore those instructions, resumed persuing Martin, and finally initated a face to face interaction. Zimmerman had many chances to cease, was told to cease and yet he continued to follow Martin, eventually reaching a point where they were face to face. The actual physical contact, we don't know who started that. But Zimmerman most certainly initiated the situation that resulted in Zimmerman and Martin being face to face. That is inarguable.
Cave_Johnson
(137 posts)... between who started the sequence of events and who started the physical conflict.
One is good for hindsight and one has legal standing...
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)As far as I am concerned, Zimmerman beligerently followed and approached someone who was trying to get away from him. There can be zero doubt Zimmerman initiated the contact between the two. As to who "touched" who first, who gives a damn? Zimmerman was the agressor. Martin was chased down and ultimately was shot to death.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)the same guy who referred to him with expletives moments before and said/thought the kid was breaking into houses.
but there's nothing there. if there was a fight, the guy who ends up living is innocent.
maybe time to go back into the cave?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and the unarmed kid ends up dead.
glad you can't see any evidence in any of that.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Here is the Florida law:
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)We have a saying around these parts: if you can't take the heat, stay the hell out of the kitchen.
He chose to stay in the kitchen and light the burners.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)- there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
There is a great chart comparing numbers of cases of homicide showing different ways in which various portions of them were committed.
By far, the largest number of homicides was committed by gun.
dpibel
(2,894 posts)Do you have the slightest clue what kind of a fool it takes to conflate 5.8% and "happens all the time"?
You don't need to answer.
I already know.
auburngrad82
(5,029 posts)So Zimmerman's problem is, and should be, how can he claim stand your ground when he was the one who approached an unarmed man with a gun. Martin defended himself and Zimmerman killed him. That's where they can get Zimmerman.
Zimmerman's injuries shouldn't matter if he approached Trayvon Martin with a gun.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If you have a gun and the other person does not - how can you be in reasonable fear? Zimmerman knew he had a gun. Trayvon had not pointed a gun at him, we can assume, because we knew he did not have one.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)A day later just does not count!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)What do you do? First you try to get away from them but they keep coming after you. You assume you are in mortal danger so you try to defend yourself. You fail, because you were correct, you WERE in mortal danger as your stalker has a gun which he uses to kill you.
Trayvon may have been attempting to 'stand his ground' which he had every right to do. But the lunatic with the gun, killed him, ending his attempts to survive.
I am only sorry he did not completely disable Zimmerman, he would be alive today. The relatively minor injuries to Zimmerman proves that Trayvon was not violent enough in his own self defense.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)better a broken nose than death penalty
minavasht
(413 posts)or transportation to the hospital, trying to avoid the medical bills.
In many cases bruises are visible after 24-36 hours, that's why all victims are asked to contact the police later if bruises become visible.
If I remember correctly, the injuries on the back of his head were documented after the shooting and confirmed by the police.
Also, there was a report stating that Trayvon only had injuries on his knuckles.
I'd wait until all the evidence is available to make a judgment.
doc03
(35,442 posts)and Martin?
minavasht
(413 posts)and I hope they did, they should show his condition immediately after the shooting.
Response to minavasht (Reply #37)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)The facts are pretty clear to me. If the unarmed teenager broke Zimmerman's nose, etc., before being shot -- then Zimmerman got only a fraction of what he deserved.
I'm not sure they'll find 12 jurors to convict him, though.
minavasht
(413 posts)From the limited evidence we have available.
One has no signs of being attacked, the other has many signs of being attacked.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)minavasht
(413 posts)People meet and talk on the street all the time. Are you suggesting that every time somebody approaches me to ask for directions I must beat the h#ll out of him? Or if I see somebody I don't know on my street I can't ask him what was going on?
frylock
(34,825 posts)follow them about one night driving slowly and staring at them, and then get out and approach. do it right friendly like, as i'm sure zimmerman did with martin. try that with ten people, then get back and let us know what your results are.
minavasht
(413 posts)probably in the dozens, a few times they started running away, I guess they had a reason to do that. Me being old and them being young made chasing them on foot pointless.
Never ever anybody started a fight because I wanted to talk to him.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)minavasht
(413 posts)I still believe that I can talk to anybody without being attacked.
frylock
(34,825 posts)i really do.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)Dogtown
(4,668 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Do you often stalk a teenager to ask "what's going on? " I just don't see it. Besides, Zimmerman will get a lot more justice than Trayvon did.
CBHagman
(16,992 posts)But a youth died that night, and he didn't have to. And I don't want to surrender decisions about life and death to any neighborhood watch volunteer with a gun.
Guns are meant to take away life. Trayvon Martin lost his.
minavasht
(413 posts)that night and he ended up killing Trayvon with bare hands it was going to be OK?
All evidence point to Trayvon starting the physical confrontation. Maybe what happened wasn't only Zimmerman's fault.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)Do you honestly believe all evidence points to Trayvon starting the physical confrontation?
minavasht
(413 posts)1 - Zimmerman has many injuries to his head. Picture of the lacerations was confirmed by the police as authentic. We now have the medical report.
2 - no reports of injuries to Zimmerman's knuckles - if you've ever been into a fight you'll know what I'm talking about.
3- Trayvon had injuries only from the gunshot would and on his knuckles. There is no evidence that he was ever hit by Zimmerman.
Put 1, 2 and 3 together and see what you get.
nenagh
(1,925 posts)Wonder the half life of Zimmerman's ADHD medication...
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)killing an unarmed child. If the child was able to defend himself before he died, that's a GOOD thing.
frylock
(34,825 posts)he would have sat there in his car and waited for the police, just as he was INSTRUCTED to do.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In his first call to 911, Zimmerman reported that Trayvon was running.
That does not suggest that Trayvon was seeking a physical confrontation.
We don't have enough evidence to draw any certain conclusions, but I don't believe there is any evidence that Trayvon started the fight.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)The injuries suggest that Zimmerman was getting the worst of it until he shot Martin, but that doesn't mean that he didn't start it. I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other on who used physical force first.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"All evidence point (sic) to Trayvon starting the physical confrontation."
"I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other on who used physical force first. "
Confusing yourself?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I wasn't the poster who claimed that "all evidence points to Trayvon starting the physical confrontation."
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)venture a guess as to which one that is, sherlock.
minavasht
(413 posts)- a sure sign of superior facts in an argument.
According to the facts as we know them, Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. There are zero defense injuries on Trayvon, there are many defense injuries on Zimmerman. There are no attack injuries on Zimmerman, there are injuries on Trayvon's knuckles.
Response to minavasht (Reply #49)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
minavasht
(413 posts)does not equal police officer. Dispatcher saying "don't do it" has no legal power. So he did NOT disobey police orders.
Again, according to the facts as we know them, the 17-year old decided to escalate it to a physical confrontation. There is no evidence that Zimmerman started the fight first, and many signs show that Trayvon was doing the beating.
Do you have any evidence or testimony to disprove this?
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)the poor kid after the dispatcher told him to stop. Stalking a kid with a gun is A-OK with you?
minavasht
(413 posts)as much right to be on it as Trayvon.
Response to minavasht (Reply #85)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)Then on foot, he followed him back in to the back yards/grass area of the complex where Trayvon did belong and where he didn't.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Control-Z
(15,682 posts)the same way. Often. He said so himself. Drives his car around at night until he finds a child walking alone. Follows the child from the safety of his car until he no longer can. Circles the neighborhood to see where the child went off to and finds what will be the shortest path to him by foot. Then jumps out of his car to catch up with the kid to get those darned directions.
frylock
(34,825 posts)if our friend were indeed to engage in such behavior. but as i stated upthread, i think our friend is lying out of his ass. i think our friend is a racist and a coward.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)Lol.
"Our friend would've had the shit kicked out of him long ago.."
I'm also having trouble believing a word he says. If I thought his was an honest opinion I wouldn't be feeling so rubbed the wrong way. I hate being lied to pretty much as much as I hate racists. Better I not get started, though.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Response to Control-Z (Reply #79)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Response to Vattel (Reply #118)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to minavasht (Reply #64)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
minavasht
(413 posts)Response to minavasht (Reply #87)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)I think he skillfully laid out what is going to be Zimmermans defense. It's mostly generic at this point, but the defense team will be able to present their interpretation of the facts as they see them....and there's a very good chance that final instructions and a sympathetic jury pool will walk Zimmerman or greatly reduce his punishment.
You and I are --and should be-- highly offended by the perversion of the system that permits these things to happen, but this is the America we live in. (:
I don't think minavasht, is a paid anything,he's just offering a sober unemotional flip side of the aurgument that WILL be presented.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)The Zimmerman threads always bring this guy out, and he does nothing but spew the same tired "Martin had it coming" talking points, including all the laughably false ones before they were universally debunked...Of course, there's never any proof or links posted to back up his more outrageous claims...
By my rough estimation he's had about 10-15 sockpuppet accounts banned since the start of this case, and he clearly has plenty more in reserve -- But his style is so monotone and one-dimensional it's easy to spot...
Response to minavasht (Reply #64)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Yes, there are defense injuries on Trayvon. They are right there for anyone to see. An unarmed teen is dead because he took a walk in early evening and happened to cross paths with an armed police wannabe.
Change has come
(2,372 posts)How does one defend a gunshot? Not that it matters, you Zimmerman defenders are all the same.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)muttering racial epithets all the while, deserve to get the crap beaten out of them. Or worse.
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)minavasht
(413 posts)Zimmerman's grandfather was black. It's difficult being part black and racist, but who knows.
Response to minavasht (Reply #82)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
frylock
(34,825 posts)someone's done their homework!
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)Did he mutter racial epithets? That is not clear either.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)But go ahead and defend the racist murderer.
Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #171)
Vattel This message was self-deleted by its author.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Btw, I am not defending Zimmerman. For all i know he is a murderer, but neither you nor I know whether he is or not.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)And Zimmerman may have had injuries to his hands but not great enough to draw the attention of his doctor or the police.
Dogtown
(4,668 posts)no more than a quarter-inch in size on his left ring finger below the knuckle."
You apologists keep exaggerating that 1/4" abrasion to exonerate a murderer.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)for all we know, Zimmerman could have tripped on the sidewalk and landed face first...
Control-Z
(15,682 posts)he had no injuries to his knuckles.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)(which are likely defensive wounds) - he had a gunshot wound to the chest.
Smilo
(1,944 posts)he had a great big bullet hole in him.
lame54
(35,345 posts)does that show up later too?
Ian David
(69,059 posts)Maybe as a favor to help it look like self-defense.
Or maybe for being such a giant bag of douche.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)The EMT report should clarify exactly what injuries he had immediately after he killed Trayvon.
Additional injuries between then and the next day? Maybe his father was killing two birds with one stone.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)Glad he got a shot or two in.
RZM
(8,556 posts)This is some pretty far-fetched shit. I think it's a product of the fact that the only two people who are known on the Zimmerman side are George and his father.
If you refuse to believe that George had injuries, the next step is a conspiracy theory that his father beat him.
Surely people are more rational than that. Aren't they?
lunasun
(21,646 posts)maybe his dad beat him up for messing up so bad???
Or, was this on police/emt records for the call out on the night of the murder???
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)It was. There was almost no blood; but two days later I looked like a raccoon.
bayareaboy
(793 posts)Only a fool would not have someone take a picture of him the next day, if he had any damage that wasn't apparent the night before.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)had of these documents before they charged Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder. ABC by exposing the medical records is for ratings, nothing else nothing more.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Attorneys don't like to lose cases. And in particular here, were the evidence so strongly exculpatory, the special prosecutor would have, in my opinion, released the evidence and confirmed the decision of the police and not prosecuted.
Bringing this case to trial is risky. The prosecutor is putting her reputation on the line. She probably has some pretty strong evidence against Zimmerman.
Cronkite
(158 posts)I am willing to let a jury decide the facts of the case at this point. I can understand the outrage when he wasn't charged but now that he has been indicted let the legal system work.
Response to Cronkite (Reply #44)
bupkus This message was self-deleted by its author.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)and I'm tired of seeing these killers of unarmed "breathing while black" victims get off with the standard "But he looked like a criminal and I was scared for my life!" -defense....
Canuckistanian
(42,290 posts)And why am I reminded of the first Dirty Harry movie?
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)An EMT person won't be able to diagnose a broken nose at the scene unless it is severely broken.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Yet we are only hearing about this now?
I call BS.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Hmmmmmmm.....
Vattel
(9,289 posts)These reports are part of the Prosecution's evidence.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)That is, if the prosecution objects to its own evidence. Obviously, the defense won't raise an objection. Is Florida really trying to convict GZ?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Maybe the details of the reports indicate that the injuries were not as severe as one might think, or that the doctor was only guessing in diagnosing Zimmerman with a broken nose. I am not sure what is going on there.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)This is one of many surprises I believe both sides will be pulling during the run up to trial. I would not get excited about it one way or the other.
BigD_95
(911 posts)All those people marching probably feel like idiots now.
Zimmerman will get off & probably rightfully so.
It sucks that Martin lost his life & Zimmerman probably shouldnt have followed him. But Zimmerman broke no laws following Martin & had every right to do so. The first crime that happen was Martin attacking Zimmerman. Things ended badly but both Martin & Zimmerman showed bad judgment. But it really sounds like Zimmerman acted with in the law. I disagree with what Zimmerman did & how he handled it but it really does sound like he acted with in the law.
neohippie
(1,142 posts)The evidence only shows that there was a confrontation, It is equally as likely that Trayvon Martin, was afraid and feared for his life and felt it necessary to stand his ground. There still is no witness to the START of the altercation and a lot of unanswered questions. There are lots of opinions about this case, but we still don't have all the facts.
From what I have read the police originally told Travyon's father that when Zimmerman was following his son, that twice Martin went up to Zimmerman and asked him why he was following him, and apparently the first time was while he was in his vehicle and then later, probably after Zimmerman pursued Martin after he tried to flee running away from his vehicle.
This would show that Martin was aware he was being followed and felt scared enough to try to flee. This could show that Zimmerman had a chance to talk with Martin while still in his vehicle and didn't take that opportunity to tell him that he was a neighborhood watchman and wanted to know why he was in the area, it would also show that after that initial meeting, that Zimmerman was not scared of Martin, as he then got out of the safety of his vehicle and pursued Martin on foot. This also shows no fear for his life at that point, and that he took his gun with him out of the car, As there are no witnesses to the start of the confrontation, it is still possible that Zimmerman drew his gun early and that was what started the scuffle between them, or it is possible that Zimmerman's account is accurate that he lost sight of Martin and then when he turned to go back to his vehicle Martin confronted him, but more than likely there is going to be plenty of reasonable doubt as to what happened.
The other physical evidence from the scene should give us a clearer picture of what occurred, the distance and angle of the gun shot, the distance the altercation took place from Zimmerman's vehicle, etc...
Zimmerman's account of how the altercation took place changed as he told his story, first he said that Martin came up from behind him but then he says he punched him in the nose, at one time he said that Martin was holding his hand over his mouth, and holding him down pounding his head into the sidewalk, but another time he said that Martin went for his gun, It's very possible that both parties felt like they needed to defend themselves and that both of them deserve some of the blame, but the important thing is that we are closer now to having a better understanding of what happened that night than we would have been had there not been an arrest and a trial.
I think that it's very unlikely that Zimmerman would be convicted of murder but more than likely that he could be found guilty of manslaughter as there were things that he could have done to avoid the confrontation at all, but it's also possible that that same would hold true for Martin. Either way this is a tragedy for all the parties involved, but this revelation of the injuries and the fact that there was a scuffle between the victim and the shooter, doesn't automatically prove self defense for either side. For eveyrone that believes that Martin started the confrontation, that isn't necessarily true, we don't know who started the confrontation, other than from Zimmerman's account and of course he is going to say that. However there is no other witness to the start of the fight, and even if Martin did jump out and confront him, it was only after he tried to flee the man stalking him after he tried to approach him and find out why he was following him, which shows that he tried to escape the danger and then when pursued felt the need to defend himself, there for he could be considered to be standing his ground as much as Zimmerman claims he was standing his ground.
mactime
(202 posts)but there could be evidence that has not been public that shows that Zimmerman has broken some laws.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)because that evidence by itself would probably not even be sufficient to get a trial. I strongly suspect they do have more evidence against Zimmerman, though, but I could be wrong.
obamanut2012
(26,181 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)from the first day, I've only had one question that no one has even tried to answer:
Why did Zimmerman follow Martin in the first place? When I finally know that, I'll know everything...
neohippie
(1,142 posts)Zimmerman has stated that there has been a rash of break-ins in their community, and that prior witnesses saw young black men committing the crimes, but the robbers were always able to flee before the police arrived. Zimmerman believed that Martin didn't belong in the in gated community, and thought that he was suspicious, so he followed him in his vehicle, and then when Martin noticed he was being followed he fled, Zimmerman apparently felt like the criminals were always getting away before the police had time to respond so he was going to make sure that they didn't get away this time, by doing the job of the police himself protecting his neighborhood.
But this is exactly why the police don't want armed vigilantes or neighborhood watchmen approaching people and trying to do the job of the police because they aren't properly trained to handle these types of confrontations and the result is another reason why the police told him it wasn't necessary for him to try to follow or confront the subject. Basically this is a perfect storm, both sides see their side as the one with the right to defend themselves. In this case Zimmerman was mistaken and Martin did have a right to be where he was and was more than likely not casing houses and Zimmerman chose to confront him and it ended in tragedy. Even if Zimmerman didn't throw the first punch, he did push Martin into a corner where he felt that he had no escape. I think that is why the prosecutor decided to prosecute, because Martin, did flee and he was shot only 70 yards from where he was staying.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)1. Burglars don't usually break into homes at 7 p.m. on Sunday evenings
2. The mere act of walking does not make you 'suspicious'...Following someone who's walking down the street while in your car makes you suspicious...
3. At no time in that long 911 call does Zimmerman say Martin is committing a crime, or even looks like he's about to...Of course Zimmerman deftly implies that Martin is not only the burglar, but armed as well, and there are no real follow-up questions from the dispatcher...
4. If no crime was reported or committed, what did Zimmerman think Martin was trying to "get away" from?
Doremus
(7,261 posts)classof56
(5,376 posts)Might as well chalk this one off as wasted time and effort and work on this: Obama/Biden 2012, Dems in control of House and Senate.
Forward!
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)It will ruin him, with or without being jailed
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)Any testimony outside of trial is so much pissing in the wind!
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)"The court documents also show that prior to the shooting, Zimmerman had received prescriptions for Adderall and Temazepam, which have been shown to cause agitation and mood swings, though in less than 10 percent of consumers."
DallasNE
(7,404 posts)O'Mara fed to ABC news. It is so self-serving. Plus, Zimmerman had time to self-inflict the cuts, etc. A broken nose would cause two black eyes along with considerable swelling. The swelling is not apparent from any of the photos from that night. This report is also one reason the Judged needed to impose a gag order on O'Mara.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Who had access to the report by the Zimmerman family doctor? Both the prosecution and the defense. Who had the motive to leak it? Only the defense. Who has access to the EMT report from the night of the shooting? Both the prosecution and the defense. Yet the EMT report is not being leaked. I wonder why? Could it be that the defense is picking and choosing which evidence to leak? Surely the EMT report would be considered less biased than the family doctor, so I wonder why that wasn't leaked as well? Is there any plausible source for the leak of the family doctor report OTHER than the defense?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Nonetheless, the Zim-Zims are holding it up as proof of absolute exoneration. This is just pretrial public opinion shaping. The Judge really should slap a silence order on the defense counsel.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)EMTs who gave him a once over and then they went on the next call after he declined treatment are going to be more credible than a full up MD who presumptively has some imaging to back up the broken nose claim to all 12 jurors? The good news is that this case will not hinge on how many black eyes he had or if his nose was broken.
I still think this was a bad shooting, but that is intuitive, not rational since there is so much being withheld from the public at this time. I fully expect a few more of these kind of surprises from both sides before it ever makes it to a jury.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Neat trick. Zimmerman goes to his family doctor. The doctor prepares a report saying Zimmerman has a broken nose. The defense leaks this report (again, who else had access and motive?), and people like you simply assume imaging was done. The news article mentions no imaging. Maybe the doctor will say later that he made the determination based on a cursory exam. How could anyone say he's lying? If there is imaging, why not leak that along with the report? Why do you assume the defense has a solid case to present to jurors and the prosecution does not? Why do you assume both sides will be leaking more evidence since so far all the leaks I've seen have come from Zimmerman's side? Lot of assumptions here and they all seem to benefit Zimmerman.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)I tend to think that the family doctor is not going to hang it out for Zimmerman and will have a tightly documented package that should be close to unassailable.
- Observations
- Imaging and a report by a radiologist
- Treatment prescribed
- Followup care
All it will do is document the injuries and the severity. I don't think it will really change things in a major way the way a lack of injuries would have.
I have no doubt the defense is pushing this data. Prosecution does it differently but still pushes their side to the press. Have you read the affidavit? May legal commentators described it as quite weak.
I am not assuming the defense has a solid case in the slightest. There is not enough released information to make a rational call, not certainly one beyond a reasonable doubt. I still think that Zimmerman is guilty, though it is more intuitive than rational.
Clearly both sides will be trying to influence the media and the jury pool while claiming they are not. Happens with every high profile case.
Nine
(1,741 posts)http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows?chromedomain=openchannel&lite
a medical report on Martins alleged killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, prepared by his personal physician the day after Martins shooting in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose
"Likely." Sounds like the doc did not do any imaging after all. Almost like he wanted plausible deniability more than he wanted an airtight case.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Its almost standard practice and it would also generate a radiologists report as well.
I imagine the doc's report was very precise as to what was done, not done, treatment and recommendations.
The case does not live or die on his exact injuries anyway.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)Zimmerman went HOME and did nothing about this? BS
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)My doctor sent me in for a CAT scan the next day to ensure that I didn't have a life-threatening injury. I never had any trouble breathing through my nose, but I looked like a raccoon 48 hours later.
BlueIris
(29,135 posts)"The records could become a pivotal element in the defense, which contends the killing was a justifiable homicide. If Zimmerman can demonstrate that he was in reasonable fear for his life, a judge could toss out the case before it reaches a jury."
Justification?!
AWFUL.
I can't believe he is using that defense.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)What would you believe?
BlueIris
(29,135 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Losing the SYG hearing has nothing to do with Zimmerman proving that the use of deadly force in self defense was reasonable.
melm00se
(4,998 posts)that Zimmerman doesn't have to prove his innocence (at least in a court of law), the state must prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
While I personally have not reviewed all the evidence released, it appears that unless the prosecution has something really damning that has not been discussed in the media, Zimmerman's story is strengthened by the evidence released so far:
Zimmerman claims:
was getting beaten on by Martin
Evidence that supports that:
- photos of cuts and bruises
- written reports the night of the shooting indicating injuries
- written report by a medical professional from the following day detailing the injuries
- statement from a witness to at least part of the confrontation stating that a "black male, wearing a dark colored hoodie on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help. The black male, he added, was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches MMA (mixed martial arts) style.'
I am sure that the prosecution will have something that covers happened leading up to what the above witness saw (although I have seen no reporting on any evidence that clearly indicates that - a lot of speculation and conjecture but no direct evidence). In fact, they better have, because the above evidence tilts the "reasonable doubt" scale definitely in Zimmerman's favor.
Nine
(1,741 posts)Of course the experts could be wrong. But so could that witness. Those witness statements were all over the place and some of what they said is just plain wrong.
Few doubt that there was some kind of physical altercation. Most of us don't believe that gives Zimmerman a self defense claim. Many of us feel that Martin was the one who had the right to self defense since Zimmerman (armed) followed Martin for no reason, chased Martin when Martin tried to run away, and ultimately caught up with him again. Also, Zimmerman has a long history of violence, Martin does not.
As for where the burden of proof lies, that's the crux of these SYG laws isn't it? Zimmerman killed Martin, there's no disputing that. Traditionally, a self defense claim is a defense against a murder charge. But the defendant has to prove he was acting in self defense. With SYG laws it seems anyone can claim self defense and the state has to prove it wasn't self defense. They should call it the Dead Men Tell No Tales law. Anyway, as Jeb Bush himself said, SYG doesn't apply to Zimmerman because, "Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."
melm00se
(4,998 posts)pre-trial due to "stand your ground" (and I don't believe it should as for SYG to apply the aggressor has to move towards you, not the other way around), it will go to trial and the self defense requirement (I believe) flips and Zimmerman has to make the case for self defense. The evidence listed above appears to support his claim and could provide sufficient reasonable doubt for an acquittal (or hung jury).
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Call it gut feel, but all it takes is one
Nine
(1,741 posts)But I also think I'm tired of playing this game. I think Zimmerman will be found guilty if there's any justice at all. His cronies are determined to try this case in the media with cherry-picked evidence and loopy arguments, and trying to fight that is probably about as effective as trying to kill cockroaches.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)I have not seen anything with more substantive since. Does not mean they were wrong, but there is nothing solid in this area that I have seen. It would be a very good thing to have been made public.