Greek debt crisis: French central bank governor warns of 'riots and chaos' if no deal is found

[Surya Gayatri]

Source: The Independent

Greece could descend into "riots and chaos" if it cannot strike a deal to secure its future in the euro, the governor of France's central bank has said.

Christian Noyer, who also sits on the board of the European Central Bank (ECB), one of Greece's 'troika' of creditors, made his comments to Europe 1 radio.

"The Greek economy is on the verge of catastrophe," he said.


'The Greek economy is on the verge of catastrophe'

Mr Noyer said the eurozone creditors had maintained a "lifeline" for Greek banks but that "our rules oblige us to stop immediately at the point when there is no prospect of a political accord on a programme, or at the point when the Greek banking system crumbles".

On Wednesday, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras made an impassioned plea for a "sustainable" solution to the crisis in a speech to the European Parliament, but Greece has still yet to provide a comprehensive plan.

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-french-central-bank-governor-warns-of-riots-and-chaos-if-no-deal-is-found-10374612.html

---

Tsipras ain't got nothin'. He's still stalling for time to do God knows what. He hasn't got a clue how to proceed, now that he's alienated friend and foe alike with his "pop" referendum stunt.

The clock runs out on Sunday. Greece is beginning to rue the day they put this grinning-ninny incompetent in power.

[cstanleytech]

1. They are probably ruing more the day that they voted in whatever asshole took out the first major

loan that started this shit storm rolling downhill for them but *shrug* almost every country has such assholes in its history.
I mean take Bush and Cheney, then there is Reagan and Nixon though Bush Jr actually made Nixon look good in comparison which I never thought could or would happen.

[Surya Gayatri]

2. But, they gladly took the money and continued their proligate,

spendthrift ways, coasting on euro-sent mana, and avoiding the true top-to-bottom tax code and collection restructuring that's required.

[cstanleytech]

3. *shakes head* If they didnt fix their tax issue like they were supposed to then ya I can understand

why atleast some members of the EU are so pissed off now.

[jwirr]

14. When you say "they" are you talking about the Greek bankers who took the money and did

nothing to see that there were changes made or are you talking about the poor who were never meant to see any of that money in the first place and had no say in borrowing it?

[Surya Gayatri]

15. All classes have been complicit and active corruptors of the system,

from the greedy banking class, to the tax-fraud-loving professional class, to the working-class benefit abusers.

[jwirr]

25. Sorry you are talking to one of the benefit users here in the USA. You need to stop blaming

everyone and ask one question: Where does the power rest? They are the only ones who can change anything. As to the benefits abuse - even that lays in the hands of the ones with power - they are the ones who created the benefits and they are the ones who are supposed to stop the abuse. But they do not - probably because "bread and circuses" still works.

The power does not lay in the hands of the little people. Unless of course they do start having "riots and chaos". My guess is that the real power in Greece, like here in the USA, rests in the hands of the very rich and the stockholders of the corporations including both the Greek bankers and the EU bankers.

[Surya Gayatri]

28. Wanna read that again? I did NOT say 'users', but ABUSERS.

The reports are legion of whole islands fraudulently claiming 'allocations' for the blind (even a taxi driver, LOL!), pension payments for dead relatives, and on and on.

They say that on some islands, at least according to the pensions paid out, the whole populace should be over 100 years old.

I would hope you don't rip off Uncle Sam like that.

[jwirr]

34. I would not - because the powers that be here in the USA would stop it. And that is my point.

It still all rests in the hands of those who have the power to change it. And as far as I can see no one is even trying to do that - once again austerity is not an answer and that is all the bankers are offering.

Am I correct that for the last 7 years of this crisis the only thing that the partners in EU have offered is austerity and that just made things worse?

Just to let you know where I stand - I think that EU should be requiring Greece to collect taxes from the rich as well as the middle class to pay for the costs of government. I think that the benefits you are talking about should be more in sinc with the rest of the countries in EU and they should have real enforcement of fraud.

But I also think that EU should adjust any pay schedule to be payable in respect to the economic situation in Greece. Similar to the way the Allies required Germany to repay the debts from WWII - payments were hooked to economic factors and there was a very long period for getting the loan paid. We learned from WWI that squeezing a country has really bad consequences. And since you say they have no plan - then EU should be working with them to find a real plan for recovery - not austerity.

EU was created in good economic times and they planned for success. They did not plan for what is happening in Greece or what is happening all over the world. That is why I do not blame countries that fall - and Greece is by no means the only one having troubles. What are they going to do about the rest of them - more austerity?

[Surya Gayatri]

36. "And as far as I can see no one is even trying to do that..."

There you have it...the crux of the vexed problem. The EU is NOT a federal system. There is financial integration, but not political unity.

No EU auditors or IRS inspectors can come in and force Greece to get its act in order. (Although some wags have suggested sending German tax collectors on the ground to Greece in order to 'get 'er done').

Europe cannot force them to exercise fiscal restraint and financial probity. All they CAN do is levy a "fine" for debt/GDP ratio overruns.

And, make the proligate borrowing process as onerous as possible, in hopes and in expectation that Greece WILL clean up its act.

Ain't happened so far.

[jwirr]

40. I understand that - the bankers have the power of yes or no. As to "making th proligate

borrowing process as onerous as possible". In order for that to work there has to be money to pay the bills. There has to be a working economy. If there is no money that method does not work and has never worked. So it is up to the bankers for work out some plan that does work if they want to get paid. Or like all other borrowers in the world - Greece will go bankrupt. Belly up and nothing will get done. There is a limit to the power of even the bankers. If they do not want to get paid back they will set back and let things fly. If they want to get paid back they will find some kind of compromise that does not punish the poor.

I myself have been in trouble with a couple of my loans in the past and I have learned that you cannot get blood from a rock. Once the lenders understood that they worked with me to find a way for me to make smaller payments over a longer time. They realistically did no ask me to quit eating and live on the streets with my children.

In Greece it seems that the rich and the bankers got theirs and they could care less what happens to the middle class and the poor. This seems to be true of the IMF and the EU bankers as well.

When I am posting here I am not arguing the case for those who have already gotten theirs. I am doing what I have always done - arguing for those who can least afford to lose.

[Surya Gayatri]

41. Sounds like your money-management skills might be useful

in the current situation. The Greeks could take a lesson from your common-sense approach to getting out from under, instead of alienating their creditors with epithets and then walking away from the table.

I doubt that you would EVER have thrown the words 'economic terrorist' at your interlocutors during the debt refinancing talks.

[magical thyme]

42. by "profligate" and "spendthrift" ways do you mean buying useless military hardware

that the original corrupt government took out loans for to purchase from Germany? Which contracts Germany refuses to allow them to cancel because they're something like 10-15% of Germany's military hardward sales?

Or maybe the lazy (shortest working hours in the entire EU) deadbeat Germans could pay the war reparations they've been dodging since 1946?

Because after slaughtering half a million Greeks, trashing Greece's infrastructure and "borrowing" (at gunpoint) a few hundred billion from Greece's bank (which "loan" they never bothered to repay), Germany got all the help to rebuild from their pile of rubble, while Greece was left to rebuild on its own.

The Germans who slaughtered millions of people should have been left to starve on their pile of rubble, instead of helping them recover so they could try for the 3rd fucking time to take over the world.

[Surya Gayatri]

43. It's 'Hate on Germany Day'. Let's dredge up their great-grandparents' WWII crimes of 75 years ago...

to explain why the Greeks can't manage their budget in the 2000s...and are past masters at the art of 'creative accounting'.

[magical thyme]

48. You start hating on the Greeks and expect love and flowers in return?

The Germans have owed war reparations for 75 years.

First they said it was "unfair" for West Germany to pay them all, so they were deferred.

Then when East and West united, it was "unfair" to unload the debt on their children and grandchildren.

Well, it's the Germans who did the crimes, took on the debt *and* deferred it to their children and grandchildren.

As to the Greeks, last I read it was Goldman Sachs that's a master at creative accounting. And it was one corrupt government that entered to contracts for Germany's crappy military hardware.

But I'm not getting into it with you again. The next time you post bigoted hate speech against the Greeks, I'm simply alerting.

[Surya Gayatri]

49. "...bigoted hate speech against the Greeks?"

Why are you making a geopolitical, international crisis into such a personal, self-identifying "cause celebre"?

I happen to have some German ancestors, but I don't run with my hair on fire to the alert box when you or anyone else calls today's Germans or Angela Merkel, "arrogant, high-handed, Nazi-like, dictator, Kaiser-helmet wearing, Jew-killing, ETC. ETC. ETC.

Unlike you and most others here, however, I DO have an immediate and anxious interest in the viability and sustainability of the euro.

And, what's happening to it because of Greece's protracted and ineffectual confrontation with her European 'partners' is really alarming.

[magical thyme]

53. "But, they gladly took the money and continued their proligate,

spendthrift ways, coasting on euro-sent mana, and avoiding the true top-to-bottom tax code and collection restructuring that's required."
Not one fact there. Only name calling and bigotry.

1. One corrupt government took the money, in part to purchase German military equipment that they have no use for. The original loans, and the new ones aren't being used by "profligate, spendthrift" Greeks. The new loans are being used to "roll over" the old loans. Iow, the 2008 crisis left Greece unable to pay the original loans. Instead of the loans being restructured, the Troika has forced them to take more loans to pay the original loans.

2. The Troika used ~90% of the loans supposedly made to "Greece" to bailout out *private banks* and requires repayment from the public funds. Iow, the Troika turned what was private debt into public debt. The Greek people didn't gain anything from those loans. Up to this point, the situation is similar to the US when we bailed out the banks after 2008. But with one critical difference. The US made the private bank losses public debt, but also provided (inadequate but better than nothing) stimulus to support the US economy. The Troika made private bank losses into public debt, but imposed *austerity* to destroy the economy.

2. The Greek people have endured 5 years of "austerity" with savage cuts to the most vulnerable people. The result of the cuts to public spending are 25%+ unemployment and deflation. GDP continues to shrink, which makes the loans unpayable, period.

3. Greece has instituted the changes that were required of it by the Troika. The structure the Troika forced onto Greece was guaranteed to fail. The IMF itself wrote that 5 years ago that the Troika's plan could not work and would generate the current result.


"And, what's happening to it because of Greece's protracted and ineffectual confrontation with her European 'partners' is really alarming."

The confrontation could end immediately. At this point, Germany stands alone on insisting on doubling down on austerity. The IMF, France, Italy and others are in agreement that the only solution is to institute now what should have been done 5 years ago.

[Surya Gayatri]

54. Have a read here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026952900

There seems to be quite a divergence of opinion, as is often the case on DU.

[magical thyme]

56. already did, and responded.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6953394

I don't give that particular DUer much credence do to history of "1%er glossover mansplaining" with few supporting facts or detail.

The info I have posted is not opinion-based; it is fact-based. It is a *fact* that ~90% of the loans to Greece were actually loans to the private banking system, and that the Troika turned private banking losses into public debt. It is a *fact* that instead of helping Greece to be able to pay back the loans, the Troika crushed their economy -- in direct contradiction to what the IMF recommended -- thereby ensuring they would never be able to pay back the debt.

Here is another little fact. The "debt" could very easily be written down. It is not "debt" in the sense that the bank gave them a pile of Euros and they wasted it partying and now refuse to pay it back.

Banks create "money" out of thin air. The money that was loaned didn't exist until the EMC wrote a credit on one side of its books and a debit on the other side. Voila -- money exists and is loaned out.

They can just as easily write it down and the money that never existed to begin with still doesn't exist.

I have yet to see you respond to the *facts* that I have presented on the Greek's side.

[cstanleytech]

44. Well of course the politicians did that, none of them wanted to be seen as the one at fault

by telling the Greek people that the country was in trouble so they kept kicking it down the road and then the next politician did it and the next and so on and so on problem is though they have kicked it as far as it can be kicked.

[Surya Gayatri]

45. 'Terminus...tout le monde descend' - as they announce at the end of the Paris Metro line...

[roamer65]

57. Merkel and her ilk are using Greece as an example to scare other Eurozone nations.

She is being extremely harsh to show what happens when you don't play by German rules.

[Historic NY]

4. Excellent it will give them something to do with their free time...

[Surya Gayatri]

5. Yeah, when all else fails, lob a few molotov cocktails. Like that's worked so well

for them on multiple occasions in the past.

[fasttense]

6. Oh come off it.

Tsipras did NOT cause this. The EU instance on austerity caused this.

Austerity was suppose to put Greece in the black instead it put Greece into a Great Depression worse than the one in the 1930s. For people who pretend to understand economics, the EU certainly missed the mark with their austerity BS. NO Nation has ever gotten out of a depression through austerity - never. They got out of the Great Depression through loan forgiveness after a war and pumping money into the economy to grow their way out.

More of the same austerity was NOT GOING TO GET THEM OUT OF THE DEPRESSION. The EU was ONLY offering more of the same BS that caused Greece's Depression.

Riots and chaos in Greece is what the French central bank governor wants. He helped cause this Greek Depression and he wants it to get worse to prove he is not the buffoon he looks like.

[Surya Gayatri]

7. Riiiiight....that's clear then. 'Riots and chaos in Greece is what the French governor wants...',

especially 'to prove he is not the buffoon he looks like.'

Do you have any idea how silly you sound?

Words fail...

[fasttense]

8. Do you have any idea of how you sound?

I've heard NGOs and propagandists for the EU repeat the exact same talking points as posted here.

But you know what? I'm NOT going to call you names like silly or stupid or troll or tool. Those are techniques used by trolls to divert the discussion away from the real issues. If you can NOT win on the facts call names is how most trolls do it Surya.

[Surya Gayatri]

10. ...

[fasttense]

11. Tired of calling me names?

Just checking.

[Surya Gayatri]

16. Silly in this instance is an adjective and qualifier, not a sobriquet.

[fasttense]

29. Interesting use of the word sobriquet

But I doubt calling me silly will ever catch on as a nickname.

But telling someone they "sound silly" is meant as an insult equal to name calling.

[jwirr]

17. You seem to be supporting austerity. What are your solutions for this mess and where exactly do

you fit into it?

[Surya Gayatri]

24. I've discussed my personal interest in and anxiety about this sad situation in these OPs and posts,

if you care to peruse them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137547#top

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137547#post49

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137599#top

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137599#post7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137599#post16

[GliderGuider]

12. Making these kinds of pronouncements is a political strategy

Designed to put even more pressure on Tsipras to cave in. Whether Noyer "wants" riots or not, he is not likely to be unhappy if they break out - in the cause of financial justice and making sure those lazy, shiftless, untrustworthy Greeks get what they deserve.

I thought the collective punishment of an entire people for the transgressions of a few had been outlawed by the Geneva conventions?

[Surya Gayatri]

20. Just what he wants. A collapsing, riot-torn Greece on his southern flank.

With Syria and the Middle East in flames.

Your grasp of geopolitical realities is impressive.

[GliderGuider]

32. I don't think he gives a shit. It's all a political game to him

and he's counting on Greece to cave in.

[Surya Gayatri]

33. Uh huh. France doesn't give a shit about instability and collapse in Greece, which is a major buffer

zone and bastion between Europe and the Middle East.

Perhaps you've missed the reports on the thousands of Middle East refugees washing up on Greek shores?

http://www.politico.eu/article/europes-refugee-crisis-unfolds-on-greek-shores/

Europe’s refugee crisis unfolds on Greek shores

Seeking a better life, thousands of migrants remain stuck in dead-end holding grounds, as an ill-equipped country struggles to deal with bureaucratic backlog and dwindling resources.

[GliderGuider]

35. Things will unfold as they will.

Neither my opinion nor yours makes any difference to that reality.

Anyway, I think China is about to sweep southern Europe off the front pages. Add a cratering Chinese economy to a disintegrating Europe and what do you get? That's geopolitics worthy of the name.

[Surya Gayatri]

38. You're right there...we're ALL in for a bumpy night, me thinks.

[Nitram]

9. The EU presented Greece with an impossible choice to bring about regime change.

The socialist Greek government makes a lot of European leaders very uncomfortable. So they presented Greece with the choice of unsustainable austerity or leaving the EU. After WWII, when Greece and other nations bailed out Germany, they also forgave a good deal of their debt AND tied the rate of loan re-payment to the level of Germany's exports. In other words, Germany was not required to repay their loan any faster than their economy allowed them to. A reasonable solution that was not offered to Greece. Who, by the way, had not just exterminated 6 million Jews.

[Surya Gayatri]

13. "...leaving the EU?" Whaaa? Who said anything about Greece leaving

the EU?

The 'socialist Greek government' has been in power for 5 months. Greece has been dysfunctional for decades, if not a couple of centuries. Tsipras and his band of merry men have no idea how to deal with it.

Greece inherited and has never managed to rise above an unfortunate legacy from its days as an Ottoman Empire vassal--endemic corruption, murky politics, incompetent and graft-taking functionaries, plus a catastrophic tax code and collection system.

France also has a 'socialist' government and nobody feels 'very uncomfortable' with them or has tried to force 'regime change' on them.

[Nitram]

19. France is actually supporting Greece.

[Surya Gayatri]

21. Exactly. They're one of the few 'friends' Tsipras hasn't completely alienated.

France is attempting to get the hapless Alexis and his gang to come up with some kind of viable plan.

[Nitram]

22. So is the US.

Germany and the UK , not so much.

[nyabingi]

47. You must be a paid agent

of the nameless, faceless "creditors" who are demanding blood from what is left of Greece?

Tsipras has a lot more friends than you want to believe, and he and the Greek people won a lot more (and the respect of) many people around the globe who've watched the IMF and their likes devastate country after country with no push back.

[Surya Gayatri]

50. Not last time I looked at my meager retirement pension...

paid in and pegged to the fast-tanking euro.

Tanking because of the protracted and so-far fruitless confrontation of Greece with her European 'partners', or as Varoufakis so elegantly called them, 'terrorists'.

Really good move in the present fraught climate eh? Just the ticket to find solid, common ground out of this miasma.

[nyabingi]

66. It is the "partners" who haven't been willing

to compromise or budge from their demands.

The banking officials and other shadowy figures in the finance industry who are hidden from public view don't care one iota for human beings, only how much profit they can make off those people's suffering. I just can't believe there are actually people defending the misanthropic one-percenters and blaming Greek citizens for problems caused by their finance industry.

Greece is the only side trying to find compromise so far.

[Nitram]

62. A paid agent? For whom? I was defending Greece.

[nyabingi]

64. I thought I was replying to Surya Garatri

[Nitram]

65. OK, never mind. It gets hard sometimes to tell who is replying to whom.

[jwirr]

23. My own country - USA - started going to hell in a handbasket when Reagan was elected. No one

has known what to do about it since then and even if they had a good idea it did not get enacted because of the republican party. And if it did get enacted it was for the top earners not for all the people. Many of us are still experiencing a deep recession. Finally this year we have one candidate who actually seems to understand and is suggesting actions. But there is no guarantee that even if elected anything will get done for the same reason nothing gets done in Greece - the government for the most part belongs to the rich.

So even if Tsipras has been in for such a long time (5 whole months) unless he has the complete backing from the rest of the government there is not much he can do. As to a plan - do you have one? We would like to know it here in the USA also. The loan sharks he is appealing to for help will not accept anything but austerity and everyone but them know it does not work. Austerity just digs the hole deeper.

[jwirr]

18. Excellent point.

[aggiesal]

58. One other point, everyone (I think) is missing ...

When Germany got bailed out, it was the governments that made the loans and forgave them.

This time it's private bankers, and Germany and England don't want them to lose money.
Remember, they're the 1%'s.

If they made bad loans, too bad.

I agree, that Greece should pay them back at the ability that their economy grows, not at
some unsustainable level. Which I believe is currently happening.

[Nitram]

63. that is a good point, aggiesal

But don't governments have the power to overrule the banks? My understanding about Germany is that Merkel's government could lose the next election if they don't insist on a hard line with Greece. the majority of Germans are very anti-Greece.

[aggiesal]

67. To answer your question, ...

Yes I do believe that the governments can overrule,
but this is the 1% that they would be screwing. And,
I don't believe they'll do that.

The government could also buy the loans from the banks and
forgive as well, but like you said, Germans are very anti-Greece
and Merkel's party as no plans on giving up any power, so I
wouldn't expect this to happen.

I believe that the troika wants to make Greece an example and
really make it extremely hard on them. So that other countries
like Spain, Portugal or Ireland don't get the same idea, and put their
citizens through the hell that Greece is about to experience, if
a new bailout is not approved and accepted.

[Nitram]

68. I'm afraid you're right about the troika.

[2naSalit]

26. UNREC.

[Surya Gayatri]

31. Let's hope, for the good of the Greek people, that Tsipras' half-assed, hapless,

Alexis-come-lately 'plan' gets some kind of recommendation from his EU brethren, or hello "Grexit".

[PSPS]

27. Geesh! They're really going hard on this "catapult the propaganda" thing

And judging from most of the comments on DU, it's working. Most of the accusations being made about Greece's problems aren't true at all. "Lazy, greedy pensioners." Greece's demographics and pension system are roughly the same as other EU countries. Their median age may be a little older because many younger Greeks have left because there are no jobs. But, again, that's happening in other EU countries too.

The "bailout loans" that Greece is on the hook for here were never spent on anything actually in Greece. instead, they were used to bail out the lenders. When you boil it down, the real sticking point here is the refusal of the banks to take a haircut (i.e., lose some of the return they expected on their speculative investment.)

I'm sure Greek people are delighted to be given diktats from Berlin, of all places.

Greece is the first EU country to show some spine against what is becoming increasingly common around the globe, including in the US -- corporate rule. You know. "Eat your peas." Remember that little ditty? The primary goal here is to destroy Greece lest this movement spread to other EU countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal where similar sentiment is rising and elections are coming up.

[Surya Gayatri]

30. The Greek pensions dilemma explained...

A Greek paradox: many elderly are broke despite costly pensions

* Lenders press Greece for more spending cuts

* Greece has highest pension spending in EU

To the lenders, the pension system is still too generous compared with what the country can afford. Greece spent 17.5 percent of its economic output on pension payments, more than any other EU country, according to the latest available Eurostat figures from 2012.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/16/eurozone-greece-pensions-idUSL5N0Z12PS20150616

Unsustainable futures? The Greek pensions dilemma explained

The standoff between Greece and its creditors over pensions is part of a much wider problem: the conflicts between economics, politics, a dependent society, and inefficient accounting.

But it’s not enough. Make no mistake, Greece’s pension system is not sustainable and still needs major reform.

As a proportion of GDP, no country in the EU spends as much as Greece’s 17.5% on pensions.



http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/15/unsustainable-futures-greece-pensions-dilemma-explained-financial-crisis-default-eurozone

[PSPS]

37. LOL. Yes! That extra 0.3% pension spending is causing all of this!!11!! Those fat cat pensioneers!1!

[Surya Gayatri]

39. You put the emphasis on the 'lazy pensioner' charge, and

my post was to elucidate the problem further.

Did you happen to read this?:

The standoff between Greece and its creditors over pensions is part of a much wider problem: the conflicts between economics, politics, a dependent society, and inefficient accounting.

Pension fraud hardly scratches the surface.

[nyabingi]

46. Decided I'd gauge general reaction to Greece's rejection

of European-style austerity and misery, and I guess I'm not surprised that there are some on this site supporting the Troika and its economic assault on the Greek people. This is "Democratic" Underground after all.

If a politically-powerful Democrat says it's OK, most Democrats ignore whatever moral compass they have, nod their little heads and go along with it without question.

Tsipras and Syriza were elected to reject any more austerity measures from banking vultures who are only looking to cash in on the suffering of people they don't know, and that's exactly what Tsipras and Syriza are trying to do. Putting the question up for referendum and the democratic process (not "Democratic&quot is what countries are supposed to do, and maybe some of you Democrats should expect the same of American leaders instead of rooting for the demise of people who've said they've had enough.

[seveneyes]

51. Bienvenue Circus Apocalypse

[Gloria]

52. Yanis was right...they should have pulled the plug a week ago...l

print the drachmas, suffer for a time, but at the end, you may have an economy again...

This thing about staying in the Eurozone...the people themselves want to stay to get bludgeoned some more...

[Surya Gayatri]

55. Major political problem for Tsipras. He and Syriza were elected on the

clear, unequivocal pledge that they would never take Greece out of the Euro-zone, because 2/3 of Greeks want to stay in.

Poll: 66.5% of Greeks Prefer the Euro Over Drachma

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137547#post34

[Gloria]

59. Yeah, but they also don't want more austerity and conditions

Real mixed message!!!

[freshwest]

61. Correct my thinking: The Euro would stabilize with Grexit. Save the Euro by cutting off the loans.

My feeling is the only reason the other countries continued to lend money is fear of instability in Greece causing a diasphoria into other European nations and destabilize them.

It's not really about the money. It's the effects of population explosion and climate change and they are trying ot stave off what is almost inevitable.

They are using the banks to hold them off. My logic may be all wrong, but that is my gut feeling about why this has dragged on so long - unspoken truths no one wants to hear.

[donna123]

60. At this point

whether austerity was wrong or it's all the bankers' fault (and I would be happy to see many of these a-holes in jail, why can't we jail some here too after what happened in 2008), how are other European politicians going to explain to their electorate that they gave another bailout to Greece? I read that 2 to 1, the French now want Greece out of the euro. Could keeping Greece in the euro lead to political instability by causing other EU countries to get rid of their govts and turn to more extreme parties? The increase in migrants to Europe's shores is already making some more conservative.

It seems some of the young in Greece are starting to accept that they will leave the euro. For them, it may well be a good thing. Pride in their country, a feeling they are in control of their destiny rather than chafing under what they feel is Germany's rule. They may not have much to lose with 50% unemployment, a number that is astounding to me. For the old, it is much more scary, not even having the security of a pension. One of the big problems is, the young seem to be paying the price, not just in Greece but here too.