= new reply since forum marked as read
but I think a lot of shit changed since 1991. This is the only political I ever seen that looks like this which is the first Presidential election
wait a minute WTH happened here?
1994 the 1991 guy blue
Results in the Second round of the 1994 presidential election: Blue – Leonid Kuchma, orange – Leonid Kravchuk
1999 Blue -- Kuchma
First time I seen a political map where someone switched places but I take it the Communist was more favorable to the East than the Orange candidate.
Noticeably the one region that didn't vote for Kuchma the first time is the same region where the Freedom Party candidate received her strongest support in 2010
Yanukovych 2004 popular vote victory didn't count
Those 2 President elections are used to highlight what happened when the East & Crimea did vote for the candidate they wanted
and also this which is helpful
Everything above is from wiki the last 2 are from here -- http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100261417/can-ukraine-avoid-partition/
Yanukovych received his strongest support from Donetsk of all regions.
At least to some. 
Annexing Crimea was obviously pre-planned
I am sure Putin's former political enemies would appreciate the irony
Response to uhnope (Original post)
By Tim Whewell - 17 December 2014
BBC News, Donetsk
...Since the start of the conflict in eastern Ukraine eight months ago, the Kremlin has denied any direct involvement, including sending Russian troops. But there are Russian fighters on the ground who are proud to announce their presence - and to discuss their ideas of "holy war..."
They're a mixed bunch: some are retired professional soldiers hardened by Russia's wars against the Chechen rebels, some former policemen - and possibly, secret service agents - who later went into business, some youngsters who've never even served in the army. And their cultural reference-points are bewilderingly eclectic. The image of Orthodox Crusaders sits uneasily with the emblem of the brigade they serve in - a skull-and-crossbones - and their motto: "The more enemies - the more honour."
The nationalists share the Kremlin's distaste for Western liberal values and its love of strong central authority. But many are ultimately monarchists who dream of turning the clock back to before the 1917 revolution. "God, Tsar, Nation" is their slogan - and a president who was once an agent of the hated Communist secret police is distinctly second-best. Putin has borrowed some of their religious imagery: in his annual address to the Russian parliament, which I see him deliver on a fuzzy TV in Pavel's barracks, he too uses the Jerusalem comparison. But he's not talking about Donetsk, only about Crimea, annexed by Russia earlier this year. In this speech, he stresses Ukraine's right to determine its own path - unlike Pavel, who says simply that there should be no Ukrainian state.
What's certainly true is that with their ideological zeal, the volunteers are playing their part in prolonging the war - and they believe it will rumble on for a long time. I ask Pavel, over supper, whether his friends don't think he's crazy - doesn't he ever feel like giving up and going home? "I will," he says with a grim smirk, "but only when the job's done." And that, in his fantasy, means fighting all the way to the westernmost boundaries of Ukraine - creating a new Russian empire.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30518054
"What's happening here is a holy war of the Russian people for its own future, for its own ideals.”
~ Pavel Rasta
I've posted video where Putin said that Ukraine did not exist. I've been friends with Russians, who ten years ago, wanted a return to empire and the monarchy with Putin as the Tsar. They were Russian Orthodox and took it very seriously.
Both were young, educated and volunteered to serve. They adored Putin after he came to where some of their family was killed in Beslan. They also lost family members to NATO bombing in the Serbian conflict. One lost a brother in the wars in Chechnya and his father and sister in Belsan. The other lost their parents in Serbia. They felt Americans were out to destroy Russia and didn't know why.
In that thread where I said the term meant something different, you were using 'Novorussia' correctly, in its present context:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014952083#op
Will post in a few minutes a follow-up to that BBC piece.
(Photo: Russian volunteer rebel fighters patrolling Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. BBC copyright)
Russian support for the separatists in eastern Ukraine does not all come directly from the Kremlin. The rebellion there may be stoked, and armed, by Vladimir Putin - but it has also become a personal cause for young Russian volunteers recruited by a variety of nationalist and far-right groups. Many say they are motivated by their Orthodox faith - and their dream to restore Novorossiya, or New Russia, the territory which encompassed eastern Ukraine under the Tsarist Empire. Passionate members of re-enactment societies, they have spent their weekends reliving Russia's historic battles. But now they are fighting - and sometimes dying - for real, in what they see as a test of their own, and Russia's 'manhood.'
Tim Whewell has gained rare access to the weird, shadowy world of Russia's radical nationalists. He travels with volunteers from the grand old imperial capital, St Petersburg, to the chaotic, muddy battlefields of eastern Ukraine - and reveals a movement whose leaders have become increasingly influential in Putin's Russia - but is now in danger of becoming an embarrassment to the Kremlin.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02f13ps
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02f13ps/clips
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02f13ps/broadcasts
*That's 'Pavel Rasta' on the left in the photo above. This is indeed going to take a generation to resolve, just as the Daesh Caliphate will. They are anti-democratic by philosophy and will teach their children to follow the same path they are on.
My questions are:
Is Putin ahead or behind in this movement, and is this their background response to the Daesh Caliphate?
Russia has been in conflicts for centuries with former Islamic caliphates, Asian and European empires and many invaders. Is empire seen as the proper answer to another empire?
I've no doubt Putin is an imperialist, and it's foolish to claim only the West is the source of imperialism. Although the English were most advertised of the term, and we certainly had open imperialists in the USA for centuries. This continent, like all others, has seen the rise and fall of empires, no matter what they call it.
The term imperialism is used within a closer context historically, as a perjorative. There is no defense of Putin that is clearly disputing the end result.
Putin is not creating a new empire, he is resurrecting a very old one. No doubt he and his followers think it is 'holy' and good thing, like ISIL believes, although his plans are not to take new territory that they never had before, as the Daesh want, AFAIK. Russia once had control of more of Europe and the surrounding regions than most American history books show.
Obama's response has been wise, beyond what's posted on message boards:
Obama's 2009 address:
“To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society’s ills on the West – know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy.
To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history; but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist.”
http://theobamadiary.com/2013/12/30/2013-vcs-most-memorable-moments/
We are in a battle here, but I wish that Russia and the USA could see eye to eye. But we can't because our vision of democracy is directly opposed to their vision of monarchy.
In the other piece I posted on this thread, at the link, one of the rebel leaders in Ukraine said he was proud to be a monarchist an that was exactly his intent.
I don't think we intend to stop a monarchy, as there are several we support since their people accept it. But I see Putin as not being what one might call 'noble' even though that term is strained. He's a gangster, but I think all kings start out that way...
A day or two after the murder the police seized documents and computer drives from Nemtsov's home. They may have found out what Nemtsov was about to disclose regarding Russian involvement in Ukraine. Knowing there are other copies of that information and it may be released in the near future, Putin may have figured it would look better for him to tell the world about it first. I'm not sure he would have admitted to anything like this unless he knew somebody else was planning to spill the beans.
“We finished about seven in the morning,” Mr. Putin said. “When we were parting, I told all my colleagues, ‘We are obliged to begin working to bring Crimea back into Russia.’ ”
That one sentence appears to indicate that Mr. Putin made the decision more than three weeks before the referendum, but the clip from the documentary does not show any more of the interview. Channel One did not specify when the full documentary would be broadcast.
<snip>
In remarks broadcast last year, Mr. Putin said the final decision was based on “public sentiment.” He said the government first conducted secret opinion polls, which showed 80 percent of Crimea’s population supported the annexation, and then the referendum results were even stronger.
Speaking elsewhere last year, on a national call-in show, Mr. Putin said that he had delayed a decision while awaiting the referendum results. “It was very important for me to know what their will was,” he said, adding later, “I have already mentioned that the final decision to return Crimea to the Russian Federation was only based on the results of the referendum.”
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/putin-says-plan-to-take-crimea-hatched-before-referendum/517169.html
It doesn't contradict a "final contradicted" it is so odd brief sound bite on Russian state media mentioning a new documentary but wasn't specific in when it will air but presented so out of context.
I generally I try to avoid finding out more about Putin because I easily run into someone comparing him to Hitler but I remember violence specifically occurring right around the time shortly & right after Yanukovich fled but something very surreal was taking place, I don't really put anything past anyone. I mentioned him early, I learned about this right after posting about the first person elected President in post 1991 - Ukraine
Cassette Scandal
The Cassette Scandal (Ukrainian: Касетний скандал
, also known as Tapegate or Kuchmagate, erupting in 2000, was one of the main political events in Ukraine's post-independence history. It has dramatically affected the country's domestic and foreign policy, changing Ukraine's orientation at the time from Russia to the West and damaging the career of Leonid Kuchma.
The scandal started on 28 November 2000, in Kiev, when Ukrainian politician Oleksandr Moroz publicly accused President Kuchma of involvement in the abduction of journalist Georgiy Gongadze and numerous other crimes. Moroz named Kuchma's former bodyguard, Major Mykola Melnychenko, as the source. He also played selected recordings of the President's secret conversations for journalists, supposedly confirming Kuchma's order to kidnap Gongadze. That and hundreds of other conversations were later published worldwide by Melnychenko.
Journalists nicknamed the case after the compact audio cassette used by Moroz. Melnychenko himself was supposedly using digital equipment, not cassettes, for recording in the President's office.
The described events provoked a crisis, with mass protests in Kiev from 15 December 2000 to 9 March 2001. Opposition started a campaign of non-violent resistance called UBK ("Ukraine without Kuchma!" , demanding Kuchma's resignation. Despite economic growth in the country, President Kuchma's public approval ratings fell below 9%.
In 2002, the governments of United States and other countries became more deeply involved after one of the recordings revealed the alleged transfer of a sophisticated Ukrainian defence system "Kol'chuha" to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. As a result, Leonid Kuchma was boycotted by Western governments for a time. In particular, he experienced an offensive diplomatic démarche when visiting the North Atlantic Treaty Organization summit that took place on 21–22 November 2002 in Prague. Breaking the decades-lasting tradition, the list of participating countries was announced in French, not English. As a result Turkey was named after Ukraine, instead of the United Kingdom and United States, thereby avoiding the appearance of Kuchma next to Tony Blair and George W. Bush.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_Scandal
More on the victim
The circumstances of his death became a national scandal and a focus for protests against the government of the then President, Leonid Kuchma. During the Cassette Scandal, audiotapes were released on which Kuchma, Volodymyr Lytvyn and other top-level administration officials are allegedly heard discussing the need to silence Gongadze for his online news reports about high-level corruption. Former Interior Minister Yuriy Kravchenko died of two gunshots to the head on 4 March 2005, just hours before he was to begin providing testimony as a witness in the case. Kravchenko was the superior of the four policemen who were charged with Gongadze's murder soon after Kravchenko's death.[2] The official ruling of suicide was doubted by media reports.[2]
Three former officials of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry's foreign surveillance department and criminal intelligence unit[3] (Valeriy Kostenko, Mykola Protasov and Oleksandr Popovych) accused of his murder were arrested in March 2005 and a fourth one (Oleksiy Pukach, the former chief of the unit[3]) in July 2009.[4] A court in Ukraine sentenced Protasov to a sentence of 13 years and Kostenko and Popovych to 12-year terms March 2008 (the trial had begun January 2006[5]) for the murder. Gongadze's family believe the trial had failed to bring the masterminds behind the killing to justice.[6] No one has yet been charged with giving the order for Gongadze's murder.[5]
Gongadze disappeared on 16 September 2000, after failing to return home. Foul play was suspected from the outset. The matter immediately attracted widespread public attention and media interest. Eighty journalists signed an open letter to President Kuchma urging an investigation and complaining that "during the years of Ukrainian independence, not a single high-profile crime against journalists has been fully resolved." Kuchma responded by ordering an immediate inquiry. This was, however, viewed with some skepticism. Opposition politician Hryhoriy Omelchenko reported that the disappearance had coincided with Gongadze receiving documents on corruption within the president's own entourage. The Ukrainian Parliament set up a parallel inquiry run by a special commission. Neither investigation produced any results.
Gongadze tried to be like a normal reporter, he didn't try to be a hero. But in Ukraine it's a brave activity being a journalist.
Serhiy Leshchenko, Ukrayinska Pravda editor (September 2004)[10]
Two months later, on 3 November 2000, a body was found in a forest in the Taraschanskyi Raion (district) of the Kiev Oblast (province), some 70 km (43 mi) outside Kiev. The corpse had been decapitated and doused in dioxine, apparently to make identification more difficult; forensic investigations found that the dioxine bath and decapitation had occurred while the victim was still alive. The Russian-edited, Russian-language Ukrainian newspaper Sevodnya ("Today" reported that Gongadze had been abducted by policemen and accidentally shot in the head while seated in a vehicle, necessitating his decapitation (to avoid the bullet being recovered and matched to a police weapon). His body had been doused in petrol which had failed to burn properly, and had then been dumped.[11] A group of journalists first identified it as being that of Gongadze, a finding confirmed a few weeks later by his wife Myroslava. In a bizarre twist, the corpse was then confiscated by the police and resurfaced in a morgue in Kiev. The authorities did not officially acknowledge that the body was that of Gongadze until the following February and did not definitively confirm it until as late as March 2003. The body was eventually identified and was to be returned to Gongadze's family to be buried two years after his disappearance. However, the funeral never took place. As of 23 June 2006 Gongadze's mother refused to accept the remains offered as it was not the body of her son.[12] While visiting Kiev in July 2006, Gongadze's widow Myroslava emphasized that the funeral had now become a solemn family issue and the date of the funeral would soon be appointed.
On 28 November 2000, opposition politician Oleksandr Moroz publicized secret tape recordings which he claimed implicated President Kuchma in Gongadze's murder. The recordings were said to be of discussions between Kuchma, presidential chief of staff Volodymyr Lytvyn, and Interior Minister Yuriy Kravchenko, and were claimed to have been provided by an unnamed SBU officer (later named as Major Mykola Mel'nychenko, Kuchma's bodyguard). The conversations included comments expressing annoyance at Gongadze's writings as well as discussions of ways to shut him up, such as deporting him and arranging from him to be kidnapped and taken to Chechnya. Killing him was, however, not mentioned and doubt was cast on the tapes' authenticity, as the quality of the recordings was poor. Moroz told the Ukrainian Verkhovna Rada (parliament) that "the professionally organized disappearance, a slow-moving investigation, disregard for the most essential elements of investigation and incoherent comments by police officials suggest that the case was put together."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze
I don't put anything past anybody.
