How young boys are taught to view (harass?) women?

[Honeycombe8]

So I'm having dinner at Dave & Buster's about 7 years ago. A divorced career woman in Dallas, TX. I'm with my visiting older brother, who has brought his grandson on a vacation trip to see me and have some fun in Dallas. My nephew was about 7.

So we're having dinner, when the waitress drops off water, introduces herself & says she'll be back to take our orders.

There ...right there...ensues the behind-the-back harassment. My brother (who really does like women as people) and his grandson start giggling and commenting on the waitress and her various body parts. They think she's a babe with good boobs, giggle giggle.

This is one way it's done, IMO. How young boys are taught from an early age that women, whatever their vocation or place in life, whatever they are doing, are in the end..a sex toy for men. Primarily, or maybe solely in some instances.

Now they THINK she can't hear, I suppose, although they don't attempt to whisper. Having been a waitress in my young days, I know it's possible that she does hear.

So do I do something? Say something? Become a wet blanket, dropping a sour note on their good time?

In this instance, I did. I said something like telling them not to talk about our waitress that way, that she's trapped in doing her job and can't do anything about it, so not cool. She's just someone trying to earn a living. I looked directly at my brother. Their giggles subsided, while he says, "Yeah, well..." Then they changed the subject. The wet blanket has spoken.

My take is that my brother thought it was fine, because they were flattering her, not criticizing her appearance. I didn't say anything about that, because I wasn't having a long, drawn out discussion about it. But I was mortified that my brother was setting such an example for an impressionable young boy. Teaching him that no matter what girls did, wherever they were, whatever they were doing, their ultimate real purpose was to exist for them, the guys. There was no need even to be discreet about it. It didn't matter that the girl can't do anything about it. A belief that they had a right to say anything, and as long as it wasn't negative, she should feel flattered by their attention. Because they, the guys, are what matters.

I hope I made some small difference in my nephew's viewpoint. I doubt it, but I can hope. I think we women do need to speak up, when we do see things like that.

[CrispyQ]

1. I hope your brother learned something from that exchange.

It's sad, but even many good men often don't see how pervasive sexism is & how they sometimes engage in it without realizing that they are.

"A woman's worth isn't based on your desire of her." I read that a few weeks ago & think it's perfect & succinct way to put it.

[Honeycombe8]

5. That's it. Perfect statement. nt

[Merlot]

2. My guess is it wasn't the 7 year old who started the conversation.

Older brother has some issues with boundries. You were right to speak up, sitting there listening to that is just as insulting to you as it was to the waitress.

You weren't a "wet blanket" spoiling their fun. They were idiots spoiling your chance to have a nice meal and good conversation. You spoke the truth to two children, one who was old enough to know better.

[Honeycombe8]

6. I hadn't thought it that way. But you're right.

It was a slap in the face to me, too. Well, there you go. I'm so conditioned to not being thought of as a real person, that I didn't catch on that it was insulting to me, too.

[Amaryllis]

14. Discussing women as if they are commodities is demeaning, whether they can hear it

or not, and whether or not it is "complimentary" or critical. Important distinction - either objectifies, and when it's "complimentary," it often gets overlooked as okay.
Good on you.

Would your brother be open to another conversation without grandson there, where you may be able to further clarify your feelings/thoughts when you've had time to reflect on it? He sounds like a good guy; just in need of some cultural literacy on the topic. Many men (most? guys, your input?) are raised to think it's just fine if it's in the guise of a compliment.

Added later: just reread your post and realized this was 7 years ago, so what I wrote above is most likely no longer relevant.

[Honeycombe8]

16. Yes, my brother would be open to further discussion.

He was raised with four sisters and a mother. He does recognize females as people, not just sex objects. But he has that typical 1950s male viewpoint, as well, hidden in there.

That was 7 years ago, but my nephew is 14 now. Still very impressionable...and even more important now.

He's a good guy with a good heart. A big burly former motorcycle gang guy, with white hair, now, and overweight. (No tattoos or anything...he does have a sense of what's tacky and low class.)

He was as repulsed by Trump's statements about p* grabbing as women were. He said that he's been in locker rooms and had lots of talks with guys over the years, of course...including very crude guys. He said that most men do NOT talk that way...that's NOT locker room talk.

I might remind him of our Dave & Buster's night & ask him if he thinks my nephew got the message that females shouldn't be talked about that way, esp when they are just doing their jobs and can't talk back.

[Amaryllis]

17. Your point about them thinking it was okay becasue they were "flattering" rather

than criticizing would be an important one for the nephew to get. How fortunate you are to have the kind of relationship where you can have a discussion like that!

[whathehell]

3. Good for you...You did an important, necessary thing.

I too was a waitress in my young years and saw (and heard) some disturbing, even ugly incidents.

Actions like yours DO make a difference -- We all need to speak out in what ways we see as appropriate

when situations like this arise in our lives...Brava.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

4. Glad you said something.

[chowder66]

7. Your story is a great example of male bonding at the expense of women.

Many males are taught more about competition and winning over compassion and consideration for others.
They have a different set of guiding principles when it comes to the sexes and that needs to be addressed when it comes to raising young boys.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

8. Commenting on a woman's body parts is NOT complimenting her.

At least some men seem to think it is, but it's not.

And good for you for speaking up.

[Honeycombe8]

9. This. Yes, this is how some men/boys view it.

I have a close friend, a gay male, and he's the same way. When he speaks of women for whatever reason (actress, politician, coworker) he almost always includes some reference to some physical feature, good or bad. He once said to me that it's a compliment when construction workers give wolf calls to passing women. After all, women like to be appreciated, don't they? It's a compliment!

Once I was driving to work down a very busy street that had construction. There, on the yellow CAT equipment being used to move concrete, was a large photo hanging off the window of the CAT, maybe 6 feet tall?...of a totally nude woman, complete with pube hair and such. I was so offended that I don't have words. It was a shocking sight to see suddenly, in public. And what it meant. Now WHY would a guy do that? What's the purpose? He's not reading a porn mag for his own purposes. So what was his purpose? It intentionally faced the public, the hundreds of cars passing by.

It was very insulting and offensive to all women, not to mention not fit to be in public in full view of everyone, including children.

(Thank goodness it was gone the next day. That's illegal, BTW. Public exhibition of pornography.)

But what was really disturbing was the purpose the guy did that.

[Orrex]

10. You did the best you could in an awkward situation

Generally, my experience has been that the commenter will become defensive and will double-down in an effort to make it look like the speaker is silly, too uptight, or "too PC." Your handling was more deft than mine often turn out to be.

In the situation that you describe, your objection was important in providing a counter-point for your nephew, and (as told) you did a good job by not telling your brother how to raise his child, which would have resulted in a blustery argument serving no beneficial purpose. Worse, if you'd appeared to be attacking your brother, then your nephew would likely have sided with him out of loyalty, ignoring your comments in the process.

Instead, you suggested an alternative viewpoint in which the waitress is recognized as a person, which is certainly a good example to set.

[niyad]

11. you did the correct thing, and good for you! I always speak up--never have worried about

what the jerks will think of me.

[Turbineguy]

12. Boys are constantly bombarded

with visions of power and how to attain it. Look at toy commercials.

We bring people to the edge and then punish them for going over.

Maybe backing them away and letting them know in advance what happens when they go over the edge is a good idea.

[mahannah]

13. Most excellent!

[RandomAccess]

15. Unfortunately,

discussions about women like that is one way that men bond with one another. It's disgusting, and it needs to stop. You did good.

[Kaleva]

18. You see this when driving

The father almost always takes the dominant position in the vehicle and that is the driver's seat. The children rarely, if ever, hear their parent's discuss as to who is driving. The children, from a very early age, are indoctrinated into the belief that the family depends on the father to get them to their destination safely and on time.

[Dream Girl]

19. When my son was 7, he told another boy to grab a girl's butt

He told this kid "girls like it when you do that". We were contacted by the school and we dealt with it by explaining that you never touch someone like that in their "private areas". To this day, I don't know where he got this idea that "girls like it" except that sometimes my husband would touch my butt in an affectionate way, while we're preparing dinner etc. Certainly no one in our household ever said that girls want to be groped. My husband is a total feminist and does not objectify women in any way. Our son said that he didn't know why he thought girls would like unwanted touching. In any event, the school took it very seriously and this was ten years ago. Today he might have gotten expelled. He has never had an incident like this since and he considers himself a feminist too.

[IronLionZion]

21. 7 could be good age to teach consent

since there are many adults who don't understand.

Establishing a romantic relationship with someone is quite critical before touching their butt. Once that happens, many of them definitely do want it and even say it verbally if their lover neglects to do so.

[IronLionZion]

20. Women(everyone) in service jobs can't escape and their job is to be polite to customers

especially when their income depends on tips, so it's important to teach young ones not to harass them, no matter how cute and friendly they might appear. People have been fired for telling asshole customers to F off. I know what it's like to want to.

You did good as an Aunt to stop it. Maybe another alternative would be to add the right to way to talk to people, whatever that means to you. Like discuss other topics. Servers can also be very friendly people when they're not too busy. Which is a good thing.