House to vote tomorrow on NRA backed bill to make YOUR state allow concealed-carry

[pnwmom]

by out of staters who are allowed to conceal-carry in their own states.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/lead-brains-gop-values-nra-cops-states-rights-article-1.3671395

Two months after the worst mass shooting in American history left 58 concertgoers dead, the U.S. House finally did something on guns: A committee approved a horrifying bill allowing concealed-carry permits minted anywhere in the country to work everywhere in the country.

If this disaster passes and gun safety statutes are brought down to the lowest common denominator coast to coast, lives will be lost. It’s that simple.

In 38 states, gun owners must get permits to carry concealed weapons in public, with a range of different vetting, sometimes very loose, applying. In the remaining 12 — mostly rural places like Alaska, Idaho and Kansas — no permits are required at all.

Concealed carry reciprocity would in one fell swoop explode all those distinctions. And places like New York would be powerless to stop their residents from getting a weapon and permission to carry elsewhere, then bringing it in state.

[Hoyt]

1. GOPers believe armed white wing racists everywhere is the answer to our problems. n/t

[Sailor65x1]

2. This is a lie

"Concealed carry reciprocity would in one fell swoop explode all those distinctions. And places like New York would be powerless to stop their residents from getting a weapon and permission to carry elsewhere, then bringing it in state."

The bill does nothing of the sort. Residents of any state must have a permit issued in their state of residence in order to carry in said state.

This has been debunked many times but people keep trying to push it out there.

[pnwmom]

3. It is not a lie that this bill would prevent all 50 states from setting their own standards,

because they would be forced to accept people with concealed carry permits from states with almost no requirements.

And 26 states allow people concealed carry permits without having to prove they can safely use a gun.

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/02/live-fire-training-not-mandatory-concealed-carry-permits/

But there’s no guarantee that Missourians will know how to handle their weapons should the need arise. The state now joins 25 others that do not have a requirement that applicants for a concealed-carry permit undergo live-fire training, according to a state-by-state review of training standards.

Just 24 states and the District of Columbia include mandatory range time as part of their permitting process, while the remaining 26 have no such requirement in place. (Vermont does not issue concealed-carry permits at all.) States that do not mandate live-fire training include states like Pennsylvania, where applicants must only meet a set of criteria — a clean criminal record and good mental health history, for instance — to be handed a permit. On the other end of the spectrum, in order to receive a permit in Kentucky, applicants must demonstrate their shooting ability by placing 11 of 20 rounds on a full-size silhouette target.

[Fred Sanders]

4. Exactly. Being blind to the fact the NRA lusts for this law for that very reason.State law trumped.

Ask any gunner WHY does the NRA love this bill....crickets will be the response.

[Sailor65x1]

11. The paragraph I quoted

Is an absolute lie, and will not be a part of the law if it passes. I live in NY. If I did not have a permit issued by NY, as a resident of NY I would not be permitted to carry in NY on another state's permit. This language is very clear in the bill on this point.

[pnwmom]

12. Ppeople would be able to carry guns into NY who had met their states' next-to-worthless

standards.

New York should be able to require that anyone carrying concealed in NY meets NY's standards.

http://6abc.com/local-officials-blast-concealed-carry-gun-bill/2742805/

[Sailor65x1]

14. I wouldn't argue that at all

In fact I agree. That was not the point of my reply though. When we post hysterical fabrications, it does our cause no good at all.

The part where NY standards fall apart though is in the "May issue" aspect of permitting here. Meet all criteria, pass stringent background checks, and still a local official can arbitrarily deny a permit. This is opposed to "Shall issue" states, where passing all requirements means you get your permit, which is the real definition of equal treatment under the law.

[Fred Sanders]

21. Admitting finally what is obvious!

[Sailor65x1]

30. Yes, it is very obvious

That "Shall issue" laws are equal treatment, and "May issue" laws are not.

See, we can agree

[Hoyt]

7. Gunners say anything opposed to their desire for more guns anywhere is a lie.

Fact is, this legislation will allow more gunners from out of state to carry guns in more restrictive localities. If I were in NY or California, I wouldn’t want Roy Moore carrying a gun in my state. Heck, I don’t want him, George Zimmerman, 3%ers, or any other toters where I live. Guess I’m a bigot in that respect.

[Sailor65x1]

13. The definition of a lie is pretty clear

The paragraph I quoted, posted by the OP, is a lie. Paint it whatever color you like and it's still a lie.

I already vetted in one of the toughest states, so I have almost nothing to gain from this bill. Sling your "Gunner" mud at somebody else.

[Hoyt]

15. Most could pass gun toting vetting in any state, yet 92+% of population recognizes public

toting is a detriment to society and don't feel the need to strap on a gun to walk down the street.

[bronxiteforever]

5. Yup. Its all true. Gun humpers are gonna hump guns.

The second proposal, known as the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act, is a top priority of the National Rifle Association; it makes permits to carry a concealed weapon issued in one state valid in most other states as well. The bill would also allow people to carry concealed weapons into national parks and other federally-owned lands.

Many states have strong background-check requirements or force applicants to undergo hours of gun-safety training before getting a concealed-carry permit. But many other states have weaker standards, and 12 states allow residents to carry handguns with no permit at all.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/republican-house-vote-concealed-carry-gun-background-checks/547454/

If this bill is enacted into law, each state would be required to honor a concealed carry permit issued by another state, even if the permit holder’s state of residence has much lower standards or no permit requirement at all for those carrying concealed weapons. This would be a dangerous law, as it would allow people to seamlessly carry guns across state lines, regardless of the vetting and training required by the state issuing the permit.

http://fortune.com/2017/12/05/concealed-carry-reciprocity-act-hr-38-gun-control/

And

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/politics/house-vote-concealed-carry-reciprocity-bill/index.html

[Lee-Lee]

16. States that dont require permits wont mean their residents can carry anywhere else

The residents from those states would still have to get a permit if their state offers them or get a permit from another state that allows non-resdidents to get them.

This has always been the case when dealing with reciprocal license issues even before all this. Vermont has allowed permitless concealed carry for almost 100 years now and if someone from vermont wants to carry anywhere else they need to get a permit from that state or a state with reciprocity for the state they wish to carry in.

There is a lot of chicken little hysteria here about this bill. And it’s the same chicken little hysteria we see before every single change in concealed carry laws too, and every single time none of the bloodbaths or wild wet shoutouts or any of the other problems they predict come to pass. But the chicken litttles don’t learn from being wrong all those other times they just cluck away with the same alarmist nonsense again the next time around.

Remember just a little while ago when Georgia and NC both passed laws saying you could carry in a restaurant that also served alcohol if you were not drinking? The same chicken Little’s were clucking away about the Wild West and how there will Be bar fights turning deadly and blood in the streets. A couple years later and has any of that come true? Nope.

But keep clucking away Chicken Little. People see you be wrong so many times over and over and it just shows how you have no credibility and how you side of this issue can’t make an argument with resorting to the same tired predictions that have never come to pass every other time you have used them.

[Fred Sanders]

22. Why does the NRA lust for these new laws? Top priority! Ted Nugent was roused to assist!

Chicken Littles wants Gunners to cross the road and tell us. Many times we have asked and Gunners flee.

Really, you guys would argue with a post to defend the gun and defy all logic.

[Sailor65x1]

32. Maybe it's your terminology, which makes us LOL, BTW

"Gunners," "Gun Humpers," etc.

You speak this way and then wonder why you're called Chicken Little, when posting emotionally driven falsehoods about a bill.

And I can't speak for the NRA. I'm an expert in most small arms, was when I was military, have remained so since. I have trained soldiers and policemen, and I can answer any question you have about the realities of a firearm.

I am also NOT a member of the NRA. Never have been.

[Lee-Lee]

33. You say we defy all logic

Yet the only argument you can make against the bill is that someone you don’t like is for it, so you hate it.

I’ll bet you haven’t actually read the bill and it’s clear if you did you didn’t comprehend what you read.

But your “logic” I am defying is that someone you hate like it so that means you must hate it, or some twisted excuse of “logic”.

[Sailor65x1]

31. Aha, I have finally found you!

The one other DUer who actually read the Bill!

[Angry Dragon]

6. I thought the republicans were for state rights??

must be only when it suits them

[50 Shades Of Blue]

8. Fuck the NRA and its congressional whores.

[sl8]

9. According to CNN, it's been combined with the NICS bill

From http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/politics/house-vote-concealed-carry-reciprocity-bill/index.html

House will vote on concealed carry reciprocity bill

By Sophie Tatum, CNN
Updated 9:36 PM ET, Tue December 5, 2017

Washington (CNN) -- The House will vote Wednesday on a bill that would let gun owners with permits to carry concealed weapons travel to other states with their concealed firearms.

The bill is a top priority of the National Rifle Association, and since leaving committee it has been combined with an additional measure that is designed to update the federal background check system after holes were exposed by November's mass shooting at a church in Texas.

The move to merge the two pieces of legislation makes it a difficult vote for Democrats.

...

More at link.

[pnwmom]

10. I think Democrats should reject this poisoned pill. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

28. Fix military reporting holes in exchange for this shit? No ducking way. And filibustered anyway.

[HAB911]

17. Concealed-carry reciprocity would be bad for Florida

The Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 is moving through Congress on a path to threaten public safety, damage responsible gun ownership and undermine law enforcement.

The legislation proposes that any person who has a permit to carry a concealed firearm in his home state can unconditionally carry that same hidden, loaded gun in Florida and everywhere else in America. While requiring unregulated reciprocity across the country, the bill lacks any national standards regarding criminal background checks, gun safety training, live-fire training or a violent offender’s ability to carry a concealed weapon.

Each state legislature currently establishes the steps its citizens must take to carry a concealed gun. In Florida, these requirements include but are not limited to being 21 years or older, demonstrating competency with a firearm, not having a conviction for domestic violence, not being under arrest for a violent crime and the desire to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense.

Florida has taken steps to encourage responsible gun ownership. Not all states have. This legislation would subjugate Florida law to the least restrictive laws in our country and effectively remove all sensible, statewide gun safety regulations. Simply put, if this bill becomes law, a domestic abuser permitted to carry a loaded, hidden weapon in another state could come to Florida and jeopardize public safety. Depending on his state of residence, a permit holder with a criminal background could bring a concealed, loaded gun with a high-capacity magazine into a Hillsborough County public playground.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/Column-Concealed-carry-reciprocity-would-be-bad-for-Florida_163306216

[Calista241]

18. Theyre going to get a bunch of Dem votes for this in the Senate. N/t

[Kaleva]

19. Remember, this only applies to states that allow concealed carry in the first place

If you state prohibits concealed carry, then the proposed law will have no effect. Non-residents won't be able to conceal carry even if they have a permit from their own state.

If your state allows concealed carry, then work to change that.

[sl8]

20. Are there any states that prohibit concealed carry? n/t

[Amishman]

24. Technically no, but some jurisdictions take a very narrow interpretation of 'good cause'

And make a defacto ban. These have been getting struck down in the courts though, DC lost in appeals court and declined appealing to SCOTUS to prevent a broader ruling from striking down the similarly worded laws of MD and CA.

[ClarendonDem]

26. Some courts have upheld the good cause standards

I think the 9th Circuit and 2d Circuit have done so. Will be interesting to see how this law impacts those jurisdictions.

[Fred Sanders]

23. Wrong, again now for a different reason. Read the OP again.

Concealed carry reciprocity would in one fell swoop explode all those distinctions. And places like New York would be powerless to stop their residents from getting a weapon and permission to carry elsewhere, then bringing it in state.

Why does the NRA love this?

[Kaleva]

25. The OP is based on an aritcle. Read the bill

"Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017

This bill amends the federal criminal code to allow a qualified individual to carry a concealed handgun into or possess a concealed handgun in another state that allows individuals to carry concealed firearms."

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/38/summary/00

[Fred Sanders]

27. Which is why the NRA loves it! Am I right?! Federal law quashing state law...price to pay for this.

[Pope George Ringo II]

29. If there's a state license for something, then "Full faith and credit" seems to apply in spirit

So I can't get too upset about this on those grounds. And it doesn't actually impact handgun purchases, considering residency requirements. But I'm also curious about how varying state definitions for carrying concealed apply, and for how different procedures are going to apply. For example, which states require somebody to advise an officer of a weapon and how do we put the onus for knowing the difference on the person carrying? Is a bag with gun and ammunition in the passenger compartment of the car considered carrying concealed in that state, or not? We've got to make sure that the local laws are known by the person, never mind enforced by the states.

[CanonRay]

34. What happened to all those states rights people in the GOP.

[sl8]

35. Bill passed, 231-198

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-12-06/house-weighs-republican-bill-easing-gun-restrictions

House OKs GOP Bill Expanding Gun Owners' Rights
Dec. 6, 2017, at 5:37 p.m.
By MATTHEW DALY and RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) — Republicans rammed a bill through the House on Wednesday that would make it easier for gun owners to legally carry concealed weapons across state lines, the first significant action on guns in Congress since mass shootings in Nevada and Texas killed more than 80 people.

The House approved the bill, 231-198, largely along party lines. Six Democrats voted yes, while 14 Republicans voted no.

The measure would allow gun owners with a state-issued concealed-carry permit to carry a handgun in any state that allows concealed weapons. It now goes to the Senate.

...

More at link.

[sl8]

36. H.R. 38 Votes

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/115-2017/h663?utm_campaign=govtrack_feed&utm_source=govtrack/feed&utm_medium=rss

-------------------------------------------------------------

Statistically Notable Votes

Vote Party Representative District
No R Buck, Ken CO 4th
No R Curbelo, Carlos FL 26th
No R Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana FL 27th
Aye D Bishop, Sanford GA 2nd
No R Roskam, Peter IL 6th
No R Massie, Thomas KY 4th
No R Amash, Justin MI 3rd
No R Smith, Chris NJ 4th
No R Lance, Leonard NJ 7th
No R King, Pete NY 2nd
No R Donovan, Daniel NY 11th
Aye D Schrader, Kurt OR 5th
No R Costello, Ryan PA 6th
No R Meehan, Patrick PA 7th
No R Fitzpatrick, Brian PA 8th
No R Gohmert, Louie TX 1st
Aye D Gonzalez, Vicente TX 15th
Aye D Kind, Ron WI 3rd

Statistically notable votes are the votes that are most surprising, or least predictable, given how other members of each voter’s party voted and other factors.