We (men) can't be perfect all the time, no matter how hard we try.

[Stonepounder]

I can state categorically that I have never in my life knowingly sexually harassed or assaulted a woman.

I can also state categorically that I have, on a few occasions, made a woman feel uncomfortable by my behavior.

I ain't perfect, but I try to be respectful of boundaries. I haven't always (the vast majority of the time, but not always) succeeded.

Let me tell you how it should work. Many years ago I worked as a contractor for the U.S. Post Office in San Jose, CA. Eventually I was 'promoted' to 'Team Leader'. (Note: the only thing 'Team Leader' meant was that I became the other contractors in my department came to if they had an issue or conflict between USPO demands and the rules of our contract. They would come to me and I, in turn would go to either the Contract manager or the USPO supervisor to resolve the issue.)

There was a woman on our team who thought that she deserved the job and was angry that I had been 'promoted' instead of her. One day she called me and demanded that I come to her cube because she had 'something she needed to discuss'. I went to her cube, resolved her issue, and then told her that the proper procedure was for her to come to me, not demand that I come to her. At which point she decided to file a 'sexual discrimination' complaint against me.

Our contracting manager and the USPS Department Manager immediately began interviewing me, her, and every other contractor and USPS employee in the Dept. After all interviews were complete, the determination was that no discrimination had occurred.

She appealed.

So, the issue was kicked up to the Division USPS guy and the Division contracting rep. Again everyone was interviewed, again, no discrimination.

She appealed again.

Special investigators were flown in from Washington DC. Again interviews, a review of why I was promoted, a review of why I was chosen over her. How I interacted with other contractors. How I interacted with supervisors. Etc. Final decision, no discrimination. The woman who filed the complaint was given the choice of staying in our dept or being transferred to another dept. She chose the transfer.

The point being that her complaint was taken seriously, was investigated throughly and impartially, and we both came out of it with our reputations intact.

Had I offended her? Absolutely. Was I in the wrong? I never felt that I had. Did she think I was wrong? I'm sure she did.

But that's how an issue like that should be resolved. Not in the press, not in a rush to judgement. If you are willing to make a claim, then be willing to have it investigated. In the case of Roy Moore there is plenty of contemporaneous testimony that the events occurred. In the case of Al Franken, there is none. In the case of Trumpenstein there is plenty of contemporaneous testimony.

Most of us men admit we ain't perfect. But we do our best.

[True Dough]

1. Useful anecdote

Thanks for sharing that experience, Stonepounder.

I would make a friendly suggestion, man to man. The fourth paragraph of your OP starts: "Let me tell you how it should work." As a male in 2017, unless you're the boss having to put your foot down with an employee, I would avoid such verbiage. That sort of phrase can be perceived as too forceful, particularly coming from a man, and based on the other things you wrote, it doesn't seem like you're part of the problem, you want to be part of the solution. Good for you.

[Stonepounder]

4. I didn't say that to the employee, that was my setting up the way her complaint was handled,

which was, I thought, the way these sort of things should be handled.

Sorry if that didn't come across clearly.

[Honeycombe8]

2. The claim

Was the claim she filed against YOU? Or was it a claim against whoever had given you the job she wanted...."employment discrimination based on gender"? She didn't claim sexual harassment, so that's why I'm thinking it was about the job.

I feel for men sometimes. And, frankly, for some white people. (I'm a white female, just fyi.) I've had friends tell me that they would file a discrimination claim based on sexual harassment or racial discrimination, just to either get something or get back at someone. They didn't do it, so may have just been spouting off at the mouth out of anger at a situation. But such claims might hurt the reputations of individuals for no good reason.

It's very serious, and a real hassle, to file claims of harassment & discrimination, so I doubt it is often done when it's not seriously intended. The person who files the claim has it on her work record, which isn't helpful for her. Still, I see how some people now have to act defensively.

My male doctors are careful never to be in an exam room with me alone, I'm sure for fear of a sexual molestation claim. Maybe that's for the best, in the end. That ensures no false claim against him and ensures no molesting of me. (For the record, I was once molested by a male doctor, when he sent the nurse out to do something.)

[Stonepounder]

6. She filed the claim against me personally.

The idea being that she felt that I treated her with 'less respect' because she was female and expected her 'to come to me with a problem instead of me coming to her'.

Yes, I would visit each of the members of 'my' team a couple of times a day to make sure they were 'on schedule' (this was a group of Computer Programmers), didn't have a codding issues, etc. However, everyone else on the team recognized that if they needed to talk to me about a specific Contracting issue, or a problem with a Postal employee, they came to me.

[Honeycombe8]

7. I see. I agree with you. Her calling you to her space for a discussion was inappropriate...

and her way of trying to "put you in your place." I've encountered that attitude before.

[Kirk Lover]

21. If there is a procedure (my job does for every single thing) then what the hell

is she talking about? Personally I find that complaint extremely frivolous. If she was annoyed or whatever...fine....but that's when she should of just talked to a few co workers, friends/family about how she thinks you were a dick for saying that and then it would of been over. The whole thing is ridiculous!

[Stonepounder]

25. I tried to keep the my original OP very non-specific and neutral on purpose.

My personal opinion (in hindsight) was that she had a much higher opinion of herself than was warranted by her skill set, and she was not particularly liked by her co-workers, since she always knew better than anyone else.

The main reason I told the story was to show how a proper investigation of a claim of harassment or discrimination could be handled in an effective way that protected the innocent party and also protected the employing entity as well. As opposed to 'trial by news'.

[NCTraveler]

3. K&R for the thoughtfulness of the op...

Including not showing hostility or anger at the system, but instead defining it as "how an issue like that should be resolved".

I imagine it wasn't comfortable for anyone involved.

What you outline doesn't always work in society. It's often difficult for an organization to investigate itself. Specially when talking about the same exact body. In one of your paragraphs you mention a "special investigator". I'm going to assume they were outside of the USPS but still representing the government.

The easiest places to see failures in the area of the same body policing itself is in law enforcement and congress. Please note that I am singling out government organizations.

That said, I’ve seen no demands for perfection. After all, we’re talking men.

[Skittles]

5. no one is demanding perfection from men

that is what is expected of WOMEN

[Stonepounder]

10. Ummm, not by all men.

I have had women misread me as well. I don't expect perfection from anyone, man or woman, and I freely admit that I am not perfect either. I think ALL complaints of improper behavior should be investigated. I'm not sure how that would work, but I have to confess that I am somewhat uncomfortable with what is going on right now.

Seems we are having 'trial by sensation' on the News Networks instead of having something (and honestly I don't have a clue what) in place that could investigate claims of improper behavior without it being trumpeted from the rooftops.

We have people like Roy Moore and Donald Trump being accused by multiple women of inappropriate behavior, accusers who have others who can confirm they were told the same story when it happened. Men who simply deny, deny, deny.

Then we have someone like Al Franken, who has had exactly ONE person accuse him of inappropriate behavior. (I don't count the woman who claims he grabbed her butt at a State Fair.) There has not been one person to confirm her account and a number of people who dispute it.

Let's try and figure out some way to determine what is the apparent truth, and not have Trial by Sensationalism. Again, not sure how we do that but there has to be a way.

[BannonsLiver]

19. +1, I'm sick of the blanket statements as though they were fact.

I've known a lot of pigs in my life who happened to be men. And I've know a few women who could stand some self improvement, too. Nobody is perfect or above critique.

[trof]

17. And YOU in particular.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

8. Your story has nothing to do with men, or a particular man, behaving badly.

It's entirely about a woman thinking she deserved the promotion that you got, and how she tried very hard to wrest it away from her.

That's not even remotely in the category of offensive, including unintentionally offensive, behavior.

[Stonepounder]

11. I certainly didn't think I was doing anything offensive.

However, I accept the fact that my telling her that the expectation she come to me rather than her telling me to come to her was, at least to her, demeaning and was because she was a woman in a subordinate position.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

15. Her problem was that she not only resented your promotion,

but that she wasn't willing to abide by the rules of that particular workplace. It wound up getting couched in gender discrimination, but had she been another man (or had you been a woman) who resented your promotion, the gender aspect would have disappeared, and you'd still have been faced with dealing with an insubordinate, resentful, employee. Unfortunately, that happens all the time.

[Skittles]

22. I am surprised you didn't call her shrill

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

23. Huh? I wasn't there to hear her.

So have no idea if she was shrill.

But it's pretty clear that this was a situation in which one employee really resented the promotion of another, and her being a woman and his being a man brought up gender issues that should not have been a consideration.

Oh, and despite my screen name I am a woman. One who has been in the place of being the first woman to hold a specific, formerly all-male job. So I know about a lot of this.

[Skittles]

24. I bet her story is radically different

absolutely

[Iggo]

9. Nobody's asking us to be perfect.

[Sophia4]

12. If a person is capable as an administrator, as a boss, he or she has to be able to deal with

difficult people.

Conflict can be prevented. If you had talked to her with respect after you got the job and she didn't, if you had dealt with her disappointment in a tactful way at that time, she would have respected you and come to your desk to seek your help.

Before accepting a job in which you will have to manage people, ask yourself whether you are really good at dealing with the difficult people, the hurt feelings and the jealousy that will inevitably result from your appointment.

And yes, this is important, because harmony and respect for everyone in the workplace flow from the top down. Petty feelings like a subtle gloating over getting a promotion someone else wanted cause disharmony and disruption in the workplace, and that means the work does not get done as quickly or as efficiently as it should.

Being a manager or supervisor takes people skills. People skills are more important in such a position in most workplaces than is technological expertise. The supervisor can ask the expert in technology for help. But the technology expert who doesn't have the people skills to prevent the kind of situation you described will eventually cause a reduction in efficiency.

We all have to have the humility to recognize our strengths and weaknesses. You could have handled the situation better.

In any event, your workplace conflict was not at all like workplace sexual harassment. Yours was a matter of a co-worker feeling disappointed. Should have been easy to deal with it.

Sorry to be so negative, but you can correct the error you made and never make it again if you acknowledge the feelings of others whether you believe them to be justified or not.

Your mistake in this action was in "pulling rank." It introduced an authoritarian factor or feeling into the workplace. That's why she felt "discrimination." It wasn't really discrimination, but she felt "put down." It was a mistake. Hardly worth all the fuss, but hurt feelings can cause real problems in the workplace. A good manager prevents that stuff to the extent possible.

[Stonepounder]

13. We can't all be perfect. We can all learn from our mistakes.

Most of us don't start out being perfect.

[Sophia4]

14. Absolutely right. Our culture does not emphasize "people skils" enough.

We should learn them at school. But instead, all the emphasis is on academic "learning." Learning to be kind and thoughtful and to have empathy should be just as important. But it isn't.

Look at Trump. A worse example of people skills I have never seen. He has none. Zero. I feel sorry for the people who work for him.

[Orrex]

16. We need some middle ground between "perfect" and "abusive masturbation"

Where oh where to draw the line...?


I am confident that, in my youth, I said and did things that I would now find abhorrent and which would certainly not be acceptable in today's professional environment.

Having said that, I can also say that these were informal business settings, such as small restaurants and kitchens in which everyone engaged in inappropriate behavior: men, women, crew, management. The whole lot.

That was many, many years ago, and I will never return to such behavior. Nevertheless I now see that it was inappropriate, and I regret doing it.

[Squinch]

18. So much cluelessness, so little time.

[Skittles]

20. YOU KNOW IT, SQUINCH

I didn't even really bother

[ismnotwasm]

26. Yup

[saidsimplesimon]

27. Bravo

May I call you a Renaissance Man? I can't speak for anyone except myself and I agree with this:

Most of us men admit we ain't perfect. But we do our best.

I thank you. The same is true of the women and men in my life.

[ariadne0614]

28. This radicalized feminist appreciates your effort.

We’re working our way through the misogyny minefield, and feelings are going to be raw for a while. We can’t expect 10,000 years of patriarchy to vanish overnight. Generations of women have been repressing feelings of rage, sadness and despair (not always successfully) about the way things have “always been.” At long last, there seems to be an opening in the area of sexual harassment. The status quo, for the first time in my 69 years on the planet, is finally looking wobbly enough to collapse. Only a sustained violent backlash against women who are rocking the boat will reimpose the system. My fervent hope is that a critical mass of good men who are fed up with the system will align themselves with women in favor of egalitarianism. Love is all we need.